Im no Ser Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I wouldnt mind Azor Azhai being an antagonist I think with the route Dany is going it would be really fitting.I think this is where we're going. There's an assumption that Azor Azhai is TPTWP, but that's little more than speculation.Regardless, I do think that Dany is the Stallion That Mounts the World from Dothraki legend.Thats the real question that needs to be answered.Obvious for people on forums?Or obvious for the general fanbase?IMO most people who read the series forget there is anything called Azor Ahai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 The people that believe in it Rhaegar, Mel etc.You have to differentiate AAR and PTWP. Those are two different prophecies, and although some of us believe it's the same person, you can't unite the prophecies. You talked about PTWP prophecy, and not AAR... In both cases, Melisandre believes it's the wrong man, and Rhaegar made mistake twice.On this forum it seems that every theory that someone doesn't agree with is cliche or too obvious.There is more than just saying it's cliche... What will happen when the same thing happened to Jon? How then we will think about it? My problem isn't cliche nature of it, it's the fact that, pieces of evidence are too strongly suggesting it's Dany. The problem isn't in her gender but everything fitting in a way that never fits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think this is where we're going. There's an assumption that Azor Azhai is TPTWP, but that's little more than speculation.Regardless, I do think that Dany is the Stallion That Mounts the World from Dothraki legend.IMO most people who read the series forget there is anything called Azor Ahai.Yea when I was reading for my first time I took it as a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Where's the proof that all Valyrian words are gender neutral??? All we know is that the Valyrian word for "dragon" is gender neutral, because dragons switch freely between genders.Well, Aemon started to believe that Dany can be a PTWP, so I am assuming that Valyrian word for prince can also be gender neutral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I think this is where we're going. There's an assumption that Azor Azhai is TPTWP, but that's little more than speculation.GRRM pretty much confirmed its the same person on the religion video for the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 You have to differentiate AAR and PTWP. Those are two different prophecies, and although some of us believe it's the same person, you can't unite the prophecies. You talked about PTWP prophecy, and not AAR... In both cases, Melisandre believes it's the wrong man, and Rhaegar made mistake twice.There is more than just saying it's cliche... What will happen when the same thing happened to Jon? How then we will think about it? My problem isn't cliche nature of it, it's the fact that, pieces of evidence are too strongly suggesting it's Dany. The problem isn't in her gender but everything fitting in a way that never fits...What if GRRM is playing a straight trope on Dany but subverting everyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 What if GRRM is playing a straight trope on Dany but subverting everyone else?It doesn't work that way... Martin subverted each trope even Dany's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Well, Aemon started to believe that Dany can be a PTWP, so I am assuming that Valyrian word for prince can also be gender neutral Here's what Aemon says: "What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years."So it looks like the Prince who was Promised was originally titled the "dragon" who was promised, and "dragon" in Valyrian has no gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Here's what Aemon says: "What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years."So it looks like the Prince who was Promised was originally titled the "dragon" who was promised, and "dragon" in Valyrian has no gender.Just have found that quote... You are correct, but still that doesn't change the fact Dany is, IMO, a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 What if GRRM is playing a straight trope on Dany but subverting everyone else?The problem is this can be broadened to, "What if GRRM is playing a straight trope with XXXX but subverting everyone else?" Who gets to determine who's being subverted and who isn't?(I say this, but then I'll turn around and say that if anyone is being played totally straight, it's Jon, who's following the Campbell hero's blueprint to a T.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 It doesn't work that way... Martin subverted each trope even Dany's...Not really, Jon is pretty typical fantasy hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Just have found that quote... You are correct, but still that doesn't change the fact Dany is, IMO, a red herring. Lol I didn't say it was... I was just correcting your assertion that Valyrian words are gender neutral.Personally I think Dany was "confirmed" as AAR because it's now relevant to the plot that she's AAR... It's the reason Marwyn travels to her, it's the reason Moqorro travels to her, and it's probably one of the reasons she will go to war against Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Just have found that quote... You are correct, but still that doesn't change the fact Dany is, IMO, a red herring.Aemon's conclusion should be suspect for another reason: He thinks that Dany is the only Targaryen left, whereas we know it's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 The problem is this can be broadened to, "What if GRRM is playing a straight trope with XXXX but subverting everyone else?" Who gets to determine who's being subverted and who isn't?(I say this, but then I'll turn around and say that if anyone is being played totally straight, it's Jon, who's following the Campbell hero's blueprint to a T.)I agree that Jon is being played straight but I think Dany is aswell.Considering the common princess with an evil big brother that everyone hates and getting superpowers later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Idiots Lantern Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Not really, Jon is pretty typical fantasy hero.For now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Just have found that quote... You are correct, but still that doesn't change the fact Dany is, IMO, a red herring.And also I read a post earlier on that said Aemon probably knew about TPTWP coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella and because he only knew of Dany being alive, Aemon assumed that because she was the only one left she was TPTWP. But he didn't know about Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I don't think it's cliche so much as I strongly doubt that GRRM would outright "solve" the mystery in the story, when most truths he expects us to figure out on our own. So as soon as Aemon seemed to confirm that it was Dany, I was pretty sure that it either wasn't the case at all, or that it was the case but something else was going on (like Azor Ahai being an antagonist).The clues are there such that we shouldn't NEED Aemon to spell it out. The fact that he did makes the whole thing reek of misdirection.This. Martin wouldn't have told us in book 4 who Azor Ahai really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Personally I think Dany was "confirmed" as AAR because it's now relevant to the plot that she's AAR... It's the reason Marwyn travels to her, it's the reason Moqorro travels to her, and it's probably one of the reasons she will go to war against Aegon.Ah, but people thinking it's her (and them having a reason to go to her because of that) IS NOT the same as it actually being her. If it's meant to be a plot driver, then a bunch of people coming to the wrong conclusion works the same way as if they'd come to the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I agree that Jon is being played straight but I think Dany is aswell.Considering the common princess with an evil big brother that everyone hates and getting superpowers later on. Neither Dany nor Jon are being played straight, IMO. Straight heroes don't burn people alive or threaten to kill babies (and Jon is certainly going to get a LOT darker following his attempted assassination, particularly if he's resurrected as a zombie as seems most likely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Idiots Lantern Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 This. Martin wouldn't have told us in book 4 who Azor Ahai really is.No, but he might hint at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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