R+L=J v 61

[Greymoon]

I believe we are missing some important piece of the facts here ( I could be wrong (= ), in the occasion where Eddard and Howland Reed face the KG ( Arthur Dayne), there must be something that was discussed and it was not shown in the book yet, It's is likely that HR knows about Jon's Parents and maybe his kids, one character that is about to know the truth about Jon's Parents in my opinio is Bran, Since he can see the past and the future through the old trees.

Welcome to the forums!

It's generally agreed upon that Howland Reed knows about Jon's parentage. The story Meera tells Bran is IMO, an indication that both Meera and Jojen know quite a bit more about the tourney at Harrenhal, RR, and the ToJ, than we are being told. They are 'surprised' that Bran has never heard of the story. If the story was just that, the story that Meera tells, there's nothing there of great importance (for the readers, there is, but for Bran/Meera/Jojen?), there's nothing revealed in that story that should warrant 'being surprised' that Bran has never heard of it. Therefore, imo, Meera must be aware/privy to more information than she lets on. Does she know about Jon? Maybe. Maybe not. In any case she probably knows some things about Lyanna and Rhaegar (Lyanna being the KotLT, for ex.). As for Bran...Apple Martini posted that Bran possibly knows already - he had a dream in which he spoke to Ned. The dream was about Jon. He says he can't remember, but that his father was sad...and that was well before he met BR.

If anything....that shows that we can't really expect a sudden revelation. Bran already has some pieces of the puzzle. The knowledge that Jon's mother is 'unknown' + a dream + a story + a vision of Ned praying.

Varys knows some things...Do you think he is likely to forget Lord Eddard request's for a letter? I'm not saying Ned ever wrote it. I don't think he did. BUT, Varys as a master spy, certainly could not have forgotten the request. Varys knows Ned had some kind of secret. He also knows of the disagreement that made Ned step down from his position as hand - Daenerys; Ned has shown that he cannot condone the murder of children, not even the murder of Targaryens. Varys must know about Arthur Dayne and Ashara, and all rumors attached to their names and Neds. Else, he would be a pretty bad spy (Cersei after all, is the one to suggest that Jon was stolen from Starfall.)

I'm thinking Tyrion has some pieces too. His talk with Jon Snow did reveal that Jon had no idea who his mother was. Then, Tyrion accompanied him to the wall. He might have questioned Ned's own motive in withholding the truth both concerning Jon's mum and the Night's Watch.

There's more people even. Ser Barristan Selmy. Aware that some of his brothers were missing during RR. Aware that Arthur Dayne had Rhaegar's confidence, when he, Barristan, did not. Probably aware that Arthur Dayne was killed by Ned Stark...May be unaware of the existence of the 'Bastard of Winterfell', but, overall knows enough to piece things together were he ever to meet Jon Snow. Especially since Barristan holds honor high, and has perceived Ned as an honorable man >> he will have less problem acknowledging that possibility than say, Jaime (at the beginning of GoT) and Cersei, to whom being 'honorable' is at times laughable, and therefore not always the most logical path.

There’s Dany, her dragons and her vision in the HotU.

Then...there is Benjen, who may yet return and surprise us all. Lem Lemoncloak, apparently ;) ...I think Olenna Tyrell may potentially piece the clues together as well, if say the Tyrell have to change side (yet again) and chose between (f)Aegon and the KitN. Then, there is the mysterious Lemore, who may or may not be Ashara Dayne....

I think if Jon becomes KitN, the BWB will show up and surprise him, and Ned Dayne may even tell him something along the line of “hey, we are milk brothers”, or swear allegiance to him...For all we know, Ned’s father/family know quite a bit about Lyanna/Rhaegar. If the Daynes decide to side with Jon, I have no doubt that Jon himself would feel a little bit puzzled about their allegiance.

IMO, the story is constructed in such ways that enough people can/could potentially come to the conclusion about Jon's parentage by themselves. This means that when Howland Reed finally confirms the information, these same people will not once doubt the truth of Reed's word. Also, this may actually indicate that Jon will be one of the last people to know. It's always more difficult to think objectively about matters that concern you personaly...And IMO, he has already given up hope to ever find out about his mother. He seems to have accepted his being a bastard.

Personally, I’d like for Wylla to show up in the North (say because Jon is her son in heart ;) ) with all the confusion this may bring.

[finger]

I was reading the Citadel:

http://www.westeros....cies/Entry/5488

I took the Woods Witch's comment about Arya being "cruel" as her sensing all the tragedy, bloodshed, death and grief that had befallen Arya, and maybe also her future as a killer. In other words, she had "feasted" enough of grief at Summerhall and Arya's personal history is given her another dose of the same, which was cruel.

Thanks both.

No wonder I couldn't remember the quote. It had to be guessed.

I understood Arya had something to do with those who made her suffer at Summerhall. I don't know the Starks were involved, so she might refer to the FM. Arya hadn't joined the FM yet, but the ghost can foreshadow. Off topic, anyhow.

[Ygrain]

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/jewelry/an-antique-sapphire-and-diamond-tiara-5213795-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5213795&sid=d17a41be-6bae-4ecb-8eee-3e6677cfa1f1

Isn't it awesome? If Lyanna saw it, it would cost Rhaegar much more than some plain roses for the QoLaB crown, because, saphires! :D

[The guy from the Vale]

http://www.christies...ee-3e6677cfa1f1

Isn't it awesome? If Lyanna saw it, it would cost Rhaegar much more than some plain roses for the QoLaB crown, because, saphires! :D

Vargo Hoat approveth thothe thapphireth :P

[Felipefom]

Welcome to the forums!

It's generally agreed upon that Howland Reed knows about Jon's parentage. The story Meera tells Bran is IMO, an indication that both Meera and Jojen know quite a bit more about the tourney at Harrenhal, RR, and the ToJ, than we are being told. They are 'surprised' that Bran has never heard of the story. If the story was just that, the story that Meera tells, there's nothing there of great importance (for the readers, there is, but for Bran/Meera/Jojen?), there's nothing revealed in that story that should warrant 'being surprised' that Bran has never heard of it. Therefore, imo, Meera must be aware/privy to more information than she lets on. Does she know about Jon? Maybe. Maybe not. In any case she probably knows some things about Lyanna and Rhaegar (Lyanna being the KotLT, for ex.). As for Bran...Apple Martini posted that Bran possibly knows already - he had a dream in which he spoke to Ned. The dream was about Jon. He says he can't remember, but that his father was sad...and that was well before he met BR.

If anything....that shows that we can't really expect a sudden revelation. Bran already has some pieces of the puzzle. The knowledge that Jon's mother is 'unknown' + a dream + a story + a vision of Ned praying.

Varys knows some things...Do you think he is likely to forget Lord Eddard request's for a letter? I'm not saying Ned ever wrote it. I don't think he did. BUT, Varys as a master spy, certainly could not have forgotten the request. Varys knows Ned had some kind of secret. He also knows of the disagreement that made Ned step down from his position as hand - Daenerys; Ned has shown that he cannot condone the murder of children, not even the murder of Targaryens. Varys must know about Arthur Dayne and Ashara, and all rumors attached to their names and Neds. Else, he would be a pretty bad spy (Cersei after all, is the one to suggest that Jon was stolen from Starfall.)

I'm thinking Tyrion has some pieces too. His talk with Jon Snow did reveal that Jon had no idea who his mother was. Then, Tyrion accompanied him to the wall. He might have questioned Ned's own motive in withholding the truth both concerning Jon's mum and the Night's Watch.

There's more people even. Ser Barristan Selmy. Aware that some of his brothers were missing during RR. Aware that Arthur Dayne had Rhaegar's confidence, when he, Barristan, did not. Probably aware that Arthur Dayne was killed by Ned Stark...May be unaware of the existence of the 'Bastard of Winterfell', but, overall knows enough to piece things together were he ever to meet Jon Snow. Especially since Barristan holds honor high, and has perceived Ned as an honorable man >> he will have less problem acknowledging that possibility than say, Jaime (at the beginning of GoT) and Cersei, to whom being 'honorable' is at times laughable, and therefore not always the most logical path.

There’s Dany, her dragons and her vision in the HotU.

Then...there is Benjen, who may yet return and surprise us all. Lem Lemoncloak, apparently ;) ...I think Olenna Tyrell may potentially piece the clues together as well, if say the Tyrell have to change side (yet again) and chose between (f)Aegon and the KitN. Then, there is the mysterious Lemore, who may or may not be Ashara Dayne....

I think if Jon becomes KitN, the BWB will show up and surprise him, and Ned Dayne may even tell him something along the line of “hey, we are milk brothers”, or swear allegiance to him...For all we know, Ned’s father/family know quite a bit about Lyanna/Rhaegar. If the Daynes decide to side with Jon, I have no doubt that Jon himself would feel a little bit puzzled about their allegiance.

IMO, the story is constructed in such ways that enough people can/could potentially come to the conclusion about Jon's parentage by themselves. This means that when Howland Reed finally confirms the information, these same people will not once doubt the truth of Reed's word. Also, this may actually indicate that Jon will be one of the last people to know. It's always more difficult to think objectively about matters that concern you personaly...And IMO, he has already given up hope to ever find out about his mother. He seems to have accepted his being a bastard.

Personally, I’d like for Wylla to show up in the North (say because Jon is her son in heart ;) ) with all the confusion this may bring.

Thanks Landed Knight,

I do agree with you, but somehow is strange that Jon's parents has not been revealed, but Ned always did his best to conceal Jon from the world.

[Maxpey]

Vargo Hoat approveth thothe thapphireth :P

:rofl: And also, you :ninja: 'd me. I miss so much good stuff that I want to respond to on this thread because of the time zone differences. By the time I get to work in the morning you night owls (I live on the East Coast of the US) have beat me to it!

[The guy from the Vale]

:rofl: And also, you :ninja: 'd me. I miss so much good stuff that I want to respond to on this thread because of the time zone differences. By the time I get to work in the morning you night owls (I live on the East Coast of the US) have beat me to it!

Well, not really Night Owls. Just Europeans ;)

[Ygrain]

Well, not really Night Owls. Just Europeans ;)

And thome are goatth :P

[The guy from the Vale]

I thought you were a foxth?

[Maxpey]

Well, not really Night Owls. Just Europeans ;)

Sorry for the misnomer. From now on I'll call Europeans "Earlier Risers." ;)

[FrozenFire3]

Well, not really Night Owls. Just Europeans ;)

We are the watchers on the walls... cause the night is dark and full of (t)errors ;)

Talking of 'frothen goatths', this is my tablet trying to bluetoothing my mobile. On a scale from null to Aerys I'd say I'm perilously approaching the top :wacko:

[Ygrain]

I thought you were a foxth?

That was an exclusive "we", not inclusive :P

[The guy from the Vale]

That was an exclusive "we", not inclusive :P

Teachers... :P

Nah, j/k. Love the banter. :grouphug:

[Ygrain]

:kiss: :cheers:

[Twinslayer]

Welcome to the forums!

It's generally agreed upon that Howland Reed knows about Jon's parentage. The story Meera tells Bran is IMO, an indication that both Meera and Jojen know quite a bit more about the tourney at Harrenhal, RR, and the ToJ, than we are being told. They are 'surprised' that Bran has never heard of the story. If the story was just that, the story that Meera tells, there's nothing there of great importance (for the readers, there is, but for Bran/Meera/Jojen?), there's nothing revealed in that story that should warrant 'being surprised' that Bran has never heard of it. Therefore, imo, Meera must be aware/privy to more information than she lets on. Does she know about Jon? Maybe. Maybe not. In any case she probably knows some things about Lyanna and Rhaegar (Lyanna being the KotLT, for ex.). As for Bran...Apple Martini posted that Bran possibly knows already - he had a dream in which he spoke to Ned. The dream was about Jon. He says he can't remember, but that his father was sad...and that was well before he met BR.

If anything....that shows that we can't really expect a sudden revelation. Bran already has some pieces of the puzzle. The knowledge that Jon's mother is 'unknown' + a dream + a story + a vision of Ned praying.

Varys knows some things...Do you think he is likely to forget Lord Eddard request's for a letter? I'm not saying Ned ever wrote it. I don't think he did. BUT, Varys as a master spy, certainly could not have forgotten the request. Varys knows Ned had some kind of secret. He also knows of the disagreement that made Ned step down from his position as hand - Daenerys; Ned has shown that he cannot condone the murder of children, not even the murder of Targaryens. Varys must know about Arthur Dayne and Ashara, and all rumors attached to their names and Neds. Else, he would be a pretty bad spy (Cersei after all, is the one to suggest that Jon was stolen from Starfall.)

I'm thinking Tyrion has some pieces too. His talk with Jon Snow did reveal that Jon had no idea who his mother was. Then, Tyrion accompanied him to the wall. He might have questioned Ned's own motive in withholding the truth both concerning Jon's mum and the Night's Watch.

There's more people even. Ser Barristan Selmy. Aware that some of his brothers were missing during RR. Aware that Arthur Dayne had Rhaegar's confidence, when he, Barristan, did not. Probably aware that Arthur Dayne was killed by Ned Stark...May be unaware of the existence of the 'Bastard of Winterfell', but, overall knows enough to piece things together were he ever to meet Jon Snow. Especially since Barristan holds honor high, and has perceived Ned as an honorable man >> he will have less problem acknowledging that possibility than say, Jaime (at the beginning of GoT) and Cersei, to whom being 'honorable' is at times laughable, and therefore not always the most logical path.

There’s Dany, her dragons and her vision in the HotU.

Then...there is Benjen, who may yet return and surprise us all. Lem Lemoncloak, apparently ;) ...I think Olenna Tyrell may potentially piece the clues together as well, if say the Tyrell have to change side (yet again) and chose between (f)Aegon and the KitN. Then, there is the mysterious Lemore, who may or may not be Ashara Dayne....

I think if Jon becomes KitN, the BWB will show up and surprise him, and Ned Dayne may even tell him something along the line of “hey, we are milk brothers”, or swear allegiance to him...For all we know, Ned’s father/family know quite a bit about Lyanna/Rhaegar. If the Daynes decide to side with Jon, I have no doubt that Jon himself would feel a little bit puzzled about their allegiance.

IMO, the story is constructed in such ways that enough people can/could potentially come to the conclusion about Jon's parentage by themselves. This means that when Howland Reed finally confirms the information, these same people will not once doubt the truth of Reed's word. Also, this may actually indicate that Jon will be one of the last people to know. It's always more difficult to think objectively about matters that concern you personaly...And IMO, he has already given up hope to ever find out about his mother. He seems to have accepted his being a bastard.

Personally, I’d like for Wylla to show up in the North (say because Jon is her son in heart ;) ) with all the confusion this may bring.

I wonder whether the revelation isn't going to be quite messy. Jon is going to resist the idea that Ned was lying to him all his life. Then, suppose there is a Stark reunion and Bran says "your mother is Lyanna, I know because Jojen told me. He heard it from his father who arrived at the TOJ a few days after you were born." Then Arya says "no, your mother is Wylla. I know because Ned Dayne told me and Wylla told him." What is Jon going to think?

Bran's visions could help convince Jon, although Jon might not accept it. Jon has shown some skepticism for Mel's visions.

There is also the possibility that Jon will believe it but the rest of the world will not. It will be ironic if Young Griff turns out to be a fake son of Rhaegar and everyone believes he is real whilst at the same time Jon is a real son of Rhaegar and everyone believes he is fake. The hair and eye colour alone make this possible.

[tf13]

Didn't think this needed its own thread, but has Jon heard anything about Lady Stoneheart at the Wall? If word travels north, and her identity is revealed (in one way or another), and after Jon's parentage is known to him (if R+L=J), would he try to make amends? What about the reverse: LS learning Jon's parentage, could she travel to the Wall out of compassion and guilt?

[The Don Dadda]

We know there are people who can confirm whether or not they are Jon's parents, but is there anybody who can say whether it was consensual or something more sinister?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Well, there's little reason for Jon to seek out someone who decided for herself not to embrace him. The other way around: is there that much humanity in LS left for her to seek him out? And then what? Apologise? They were both a sacrifice to keep Jon alive, I suppose.

I've no issue with Catelyn Stark, but don't put her and Jon in the same sentence. :lol:

[Kienn]

Bran and Bloodraven

[franbatista123]

I really doubt Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. But yeah, Bran and Bloodraven can clarify that.