R+L=J v 61

[Foothill]

Jon was their king and they weren't going to dispossess him of that, nor would they take the risk that Ned would try to hurt him or sell him out to Robert. Lyanna was scared too, illustrated by NED REMEMBERING HER FEAR. This idea that Ned was obviously not a threat to Jon has no basis, sorry.

Yeah, I agree with this.

The KG and Lyanna (IMO) had to have known that Ned wouldn't hurt the child, but they were sworn to uphold the Targs as the royal family. And if Ned got ahold of the child, he wouldn't support him as king. So the KG had no choice (IMO) but to do what they did.

If the KG would have laid down the swords an accepted a new monarchy, it would have been different. But honor didn't allow them to do so.

That is just my take on it...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, I agree with this.

The KG and Lyanna (IMO) had to have known that Ned wouldn't hurt the child, but they were sworn to uphold the Targs as the royal family. And if Ned got ahold of the child, he wouldn't support him as king. So the KG had no choice (IMO) but to do what they did.

If the KG would have laid down the swords an accepted a new monarchy, it would have been different. But honor didn't allow them to do so.

That is just my take on it...

I'm not even sure I agree with this. Ned was Robert's man and two other Targaryen children had already been brutally killed. Ned, being a younger son and a northerner who'd spent much of his formative years in the Vale, could easily have been a completely unknown quantity to the three Kingsguard — at the very least, they can't take for granted that Ned won't hurt Jon. As for Lyanna, the fear doesn't leave her eyes until after Ned makes whatever promise(s) he made, presumably to protect and raise Jon, hide him from Robert, etc. Suggesting that up until Ned made his promise(s), Lyanna was frightened too.

[Foothill]

I'm not even sure I agree with this. Ned was Robert's man and two other Targaryen children had already been brutally killed. Ned, being a younger son and a northerner who'd spent much of his formative years in the Vale, could easily have been a completely unknown quantity to the three Kingsguard — at the very least, they can't take for granted that Ned won't hurt Jon. As for Lyanna, the fear doesn't leave her eyes until after Ned makes whatever promise(s) he made, presumably to protect and raise Jon, hide him from Robert, etc. Suggesting that up until Ned made his promise(s), Lyanna was frightened too.

I agree to the extent that Ned's honor probably wasnt as renowned as it is now. But I would think that during all the time at the ToJ, Lyanna wouldn't have mentioned that Eddard would never harm her blood, no matter who the father was, because her and Ned were close after all.

But I do agree the KG had no reason to believe her.

[The Black Prince]

Hope I not being rude or anything but I was always curious why so many threads about the same subject kept popping up. I thought it had already been discussed using every textual references there are. I'm not saying that I dislike the theory. In fact, i'm convinced of its truth.

[Prince of the North]

I think she was a common woman about ToJ. She knew too much to let her loose but, otoh, she wasn't told much; she knew what she could find out. I don't think she even met Rhaegar.

I can't agree with you here. If Wylla was a commoner or servant around the ToJ then I believe she would know everything. After all, the ToJ was a very small and, most likely, roughly constructed single tower (as evidenced by the fact that Ned and Howland were able to pull down the tower and used at least some of the stones to build cairns).

Now, if Ned and Howland got baby Jon at the ToJ and then picked Wylla up a little later somewhere else (Starfall?) then she might not know the truth (but I think she did). All this is, of course, assuming R+L=J (which I believe ;) ).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Hope I not being rude or anything but I was always curious why so many threads about the same subject kept popping up. I thought it had already been discussed using every textual references there are. I'm not saying that I dislike the theory. In fact, i'm convinced of its truth.

1. New posters who are unfamiliar with the theory and have questions.

2. Other offshoot aspects of the theory, like the why, when, how, etc.

3. People who are deep in denial and insist on posting stuff like, "Jon's mother is clearly the red herring fisherman's daughter."

Those three things are why this thread series is past 60.

[corbon]

Well yeah exactly most of those people weren't there which means their views would just be speculation not clarification.

Well, its only speculation (by Robert) that it was not consensual. You have one real source (Bran wasn't born and is just parroting the official line from Robert) claiming rape, who has no first hand information, is almost schitzophrenic on the subject (ie Targaryens are inhuman and he is happy to kill even their babies, which is a complete reversal of his nomral character), needs his version of 'reality' to be the truth for his own sanity (so he doesn't have to face up to Lyanna not wanting him and his life not 'would-have-worked-out-perfect-if-only-I'd-married-my-wun-twu-wuv (whom I didn't actually know at all) instead of Cersei-bitch) and is already happily living other delusions (I've three blond and green eyed kids despite never finishing in Cersei for years and years and years and every Baratheon for several hundred years or more being black haired and blue-eyed).

I wouldn't be surprised if a modern police force declined even to investigate that claim without at least another source or some actual evidence.

By comparison you have evidence that Lyanna favoured Rhaegar, even if only a crush (sniffling at his sad song, and reacting to Benjen's teasing, other evidence that all the young girls had crushes on him), evidence that she did not want Robert, evidence suggesting she remebered him well at the end (clutching possibly the petals of the crown he gave her as she died), not to mention character evidence that she was wilful, rebellious, spirited, capable with weapons, willing to fight and risk life and limb for what was right and honourable (KotLT), and its hard to see a man living through raping her 1000 times, and her still being 'imprisoned' over a year later.

So I wouldn't exactly call it 'speculation' to assume it may not be true.

Probably Lyanna would have told them that he wouldn't harm his nephew.

...

I just can't understand the KG's behaviour, even allowing for Jon's parentage.

Its clear even Lyanna wasn't sure of this, or there would not have been fear in her eyes before Ned's promise.

Its also unbelievably naive to think that that Lyanna's words alone would be enough.

"Mrs First Lady. Your brother is approaching. He's just come from the White House where he and his colleagues killed the President and brutally murdered all the other members of his family, even the babies."

"Oh its all right Mr Secret Service. He'd never hurt me, or my baby, even if that baby is also the president's baby".

"yes Ma-am. Certainly Ma'am."

(Exits. Mouth to mike.)

"I don't give a damn what the girl says, don't let that murdering b*stard anywhere near her or the child".

Its not exact but close enough.

[Maxpey]

1. New posters who are unfamiliar with the theory and have questions.

2. Other offshoot aspects of the theory, like the why, when, how, etc.

3. People who are deep in denial and insist on posting stuff like, "Jon's mother is clearly the red herring fisherman's daughter."

Those three things are why this thread series is past 60.

That's right. Jon's mother is Ashara. :drool:

[Budj]

These KG discussions made me think about how Jon stood outside Mance's tent during Stannis' destruction of the wildling forces and that it is eerily similar to one of the KG standing watch outside the ToJ waiting for Ned. I know it isn't true, but if Mance was one of the KG that would be a really cool comparison.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

These KG discussions made me think about how Jon stood outside Mance's tent during Stannis' destruction of the wildling forces and that it is eerily similar to one of the KG standing watch outside the ToJ waiting for Ned. I know it isn't true, but if Mance was one of the KG that would be a really cool comparison.

That's a fantastic catch! It's not necessary for Mance to be a KG-- he's the King beyond the Wall and in this case Jon acted as the KG did after his own birth-- standing guard over a newborn babe whose father was defeated and whose mother was dying. It's very typical of GRRM to give us these little parallels to Jon's history in his unfolding arc, in fact Dalla's babe being sent away into hiding with Sam and Gilly is one of the most frequently mentioned examples. That said, I don't think I've ever seen this specific scene mentioned. Nice work :)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

That's right. Jon's mother is Ashara. :drool:

:bs: His mother Is Septa Lemore

[FrozenFire3]

These KG discussions made me think about how Jon stood outside Mance's tent during Stannis' destruction of the wildling forces and that it is eerily similar to one of the KG standing watch outside the ToJ waiting for Ned. I know it isn't true, but if Mance was one of the KG that would be a really cool comparison.

:bowdown: A parallel hidden in plain sight: typically Martin.

[J. Stargaryen]

These KG discussions made me think about how Jon stood outside Mance's tent during Stannis' destruction of the wildling forces and that it is eerily similar to one of the KG standing watch outside the ToJ waiting for Ned. I know it isn't true, but if Mance was one of the KG that would be a really cool comparison.

That's a fantastic catch! It's not necessary for Mance to be a KG-- he's the King beyond the Wall and in this case Jon acted as the KG did after his own birth-- standing guard over a newborn babe whose father was defeated and whose mother was dying. It's very typical of GRRM to give us these little parallels to Jon's history in his unfolding arc, in fact Dalla's babe being sent away into hiding with Sam and Gilly is one of the most frequently mentioned examples. That said, I don't think I've ever seen this specific scene mentioned. Nice work :)

:bowdown: A parallel hidden in plain sight: typically Martin.

I agree with LG and FF3. Nice catch, Budj.

Wasn't someone just asking why we have 61 versions of this thread? Well, there's your answer. :)

[W1NT3RF3LL]

That's a fantastic catch! It's not necessary for Mance to be a KG-- he's the King beyond the Wall and in this case Jon acted as the KG did after his own birth-- standing guard over a newborn babe whose father was defeated and whose mother was dying. It's very typical of GRRM to give us these little parallels to Jon's history in his unfolding arc, in fact Dalla's babe being sent away into hiding with Sam and Gilly is one of the most frequently mentioned examples. That said, I don't think I've ever seen this specific scene mentioned. Nice work :)

Holy crap I didn't even think of that!

[Jon Icefyre]

I agree to the extent that Ned's honor probably wasnt as renowned as it is now. But I would think that during all the time at the ToJ, Lyanna wouldn't have mentioned that Eddard would never harm her blood, no matter who the father was, because her and Ned were close after all.

But I do agree the KG had no reason to believe her.

But even if they did believe her there would still be no gaurantee in their mind that Ned would actually be able to keep Jon safe. Just because Ned might have the intention of keeping Jon safe, it still doesn't mean he would be able to from the KG's POV. Ned's best and closest friend was Robert the Targ hating Baratheon who had just recently aligned himself with Tywin Lanniser and not only condoned, but was donwright right pleased with the slaughtering of Rhaegar's children. If you're the KG regardless of Ned's intentions or his blood relation, why would you give Rhaegar's last living heir to someone who's very allegiance in itself has the very real potential of surrounding Jon by enemies who would kill him without a moments hesitation if he was ever revealed to be Rhaegar's heir? It isn't so much about protecting Jon from Ned specifically as it was about protecting Jon from Ned's allies who were on a mission to eliminate any living Targ in Westeros(with the exception of Aemon). Now obviously in hindsight we the reader know that Ned succeded in keeping Jon's identity hidden and safe, but again if you're the KG in that moment regardless of what Lyanna or Ned say you have to look at the facts which were, A. Ned's brother and father were murdered by a Targ, and B. Ned's best freind Robert killed Rhaegar who btw was Robert's cousin at the Trident and then aligned himself with the man that went on to brutally murder all of who they belived to be Rhaegar's heirs.

I don't think the KG were being cruel or stubborn, they were just simply being realistic given the events that had transpired throughout the rebellion, and realistic thinking would tell them it would not be a good idea to give their king over to the number two ranking commander of a rebel army that had just slaughtered two innocent children for simply having Rhaegar as a father. No if you're the KG you're probably thinking the safest bet is to keep Rhaegar's last living heir(Jon)close to them so they know for sure Jon is surrounded by ppl who would give their lives to protect him, as oppose to them giving him to Ned and leaving him at the mercy of rebel side. So if Ned disagree's with that, well then despite what they might think of him, the KG is going to do what they have to do to make sure no one regardless of who it is, takes their king (Jon) away from them...Which IMO is what evenutally led to the death battle royal.....

[Rhaegar's Love]

1. New posters who are unfamiliar with the theory and have questions.

2. Other offshoot aspects of the theory, like the why, when, how, etc.

3. People who are deep in denial and insist on posting stuff like, "Jon's mother is clearly the red herring fisherman's daughter."

Those three things are why this thread series is past 60.

:agree:

I've felt for a long time the real mystery isn't R+L=J, because it's laid out in such a way that a semi-careful reader could piece it together, it is how it affected the past and will affect the future.

My personal hope is that when Jon finds out, he only ever tells a handful of very select people, so that way when he gets whatever throne there is at the end* it'll have been his by rights but he earned it on merits instead.

*as a sidenote I think the IT will cease to exist because Cersei finishes what Aerys started with the wildfire, Jaime kills her to try to stop it but this time he's too late and dies in the obliteration that is KL, but that's another topic lol

[J. Stargaryen]

:agree:

I've felt for a long time the real mystery isn't R+L=J, because it's laid out in such a way that a semi-careful reader could piece it together, it is how it affected the past and will affect the future.

My personal hope is that when Jon finds out, he only ever tells a handful of very select people, so that way when he gets whatever throne there is at the end* it'll have been his by rights but he earned it on merits instead.

*as a sidenote I think the IT will cease to exist because Cersei finishes what Aerys started with the wildfire, Jaime kills her to try to stop it but this time he's too late and dies in the obliteration that is KL, but that's another topic lol

Exactly. Yeade had a great post a few threads back about how the story reads differently if you know that R+L=J. That seemingly throwaway lines take on a whole new meaning. A couple of examples from AGoT:

Catelyn II:

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

Tyrion II:

He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Lots of stuff like that, which becomes something more when you know about R+L=J.

[Rhaegar's Love]

Exactly. Yeade had a great post a few threads back about how the story reads differently if you know that R+L=J. That seemingly throwaway lines take on a whole new meaning. A couple of examples from AGoT:

Catelyn II:

Tyrion II:

Lots of stuff like that, which becomes something more when you know about R+L=J.

I can definitely agree with that, though with me, I'll admit I started off the series as an Unsullied, checked out who Jon's mother was because I thought I was missing something obvious/just couldn't wait for it to be revealed in show (and am I ever glad I didn't wait lol), read about R+L=J, and then read the books with that in mind. For me, plenty of blaring red neon signs were jumping off the pages when I kept Jon's parentage in mind. There is still some stuff that I didn't catch.

But yeah, for me there were so many damn hints even before the end of GoT, I was wondering how anyone could doubt it, though I still get giddy when another "new for me" line is pointed out, like the Tyrion one you provided. :)

[Dead Wolf]

:bs: His mother Is Septa Lemore

It's the same person, is it not?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's the same person, is it not?

Considering that Lemore is past 40 and Ashara would be in her mid-30s, I'm going to say no.