Women and Minority in Geek Culture - Part the 4

[Sci-2]

What It's Like To Be A Woman Making Video Games

As a woman working in games since 2007, I’ve felt hurt, discouraged, and isolated by various forms of discrimination. Most of it came from people who were in no way intending to be hurtful. Anger does not accurately describe my true feelings, and so I don’t feel angry.

[thistlepong]

This letter karaddin linked is the kind of feedback that would have lead to immediate and repeated discussion over dinner and then with colleagues. Y'know, at least if it had come across mistlepong's desk after teaching over a hundred of classes of kids. It's great.

It's not "shitting all over the teacher." It's critical and righteous. But I gotta tell ya... it's mild. So mild. And it's helpful. I would have suggested taking the author out for coffee and thanking her.

The thing is, parents tend to rake you over the coals 'cause you're basically customer service to them. They call you names, question your choices, and to be honest, most of them try to talk to your manager or your manager's manager. Straight to the mattresses.

Something like this, a thoughtful proactive after the fact offering, eliminates the personal stakes for both parties. He doesn't have to watch his back with the student. She doesn't have to worry about her daughter coming under unreasonable scrutiny. And he can take it or leave it with administration support since she communicated to him, not them.

There's a real tendency on the part of some commenters in these threads to deny the validity of negative responses, to impugn their form, or to object to their content. Folks can be "good guys" or whatever, ignorant of the context in which they act, and still benefit from constructive criticism.

Oh, and the link's been updated. The teacher and the principal are cads. Worse really, but I'ma try to be nice.

EDIT: syntax and tense agreement

[Shryke]

This letter karaddin linked is the kind of feedback that would have lead to immediate and repeated discussion over dinner and then with colleagues. Y'know, at least if it had come across mistlepong's desk after teaching over a hundred of classes of kids. It's great.

It's not "shitting all over the teacher." It's critical and righteous. But I gotta tell ya... it's mild. So mild. And it's helpful. I would have suggested taking the author out for coffee and thanking her.

The thing is, parents tend to rake you over the coals 'cause you're basically customer service to them. They call you names, question your choices, and to be honest, most of them try to talk to your manager or your manager's manager. Straight to the mattresses.

Something like this, a thoughtful proactive after the fact offering, eliminates the personal stakes for both parties. He doesn't have to watch his back with the student. She doesn't have to worry about her daughter coming under unreasonable scrutiny. And he can take it or leave it with administration support since she communicated to him, not them.

There's a real tendency on the part of some commenters in these threads to deny the validity of negative responses, to impugn their form, or to object to their content. Folks can be "good guys" or whatever, ignorant of the context in which they act, and still benefit from constructive criticism.

Oh, and the link's been updated. The teacher and the principal are cads. Worse really, but I'ma try to be nice.

EDIT: syntax and tense agreement

The 2nd Update makes the whole thing make alot more sense.

And without that info, the original letter certainly feels needlessly accusatory. It's not about the negativity (a complaint will be negative by it's very nature) but the fact that the whole thing is phrased as a specific assignment of blame on an individual.

I mean, this sentence alone:

Sadly, you only get one chance to make a first impression, and you, sir, created a horrible one for girls in computer programming.

Is a straightforward and rather harsh accusation at the teacher. An accusation that doesn't make alot of sense in light of only the information originally presented.

The extra update confirming that they brought the issue directly to the teacher and even suggested ways to deal with it makes her blaming him make complete sense cause he really did just ignore the problem and let the bullshit keep on trucking.

[thistlepong]

Is a straightforward and extremely harsh accusation at the teacher. An accusation that doesn't make alot of sense in light of only the information originally presented.

Nah, man. That's what I'm trying to say. Much as you might not want your behavior, or anyone else's, described as horrible, it is most certainly not extreme or harsh. Really. I've seen worse in response to a single assignment. Over and over again.

Given the context of the rest of the letter, it's even a reasonable conclusion. He created a horrible first impression for girls in his computer programming class. He needs to own it or alter it. Might hurt to do either. That is good and right.

[Shryke]

Nah, man. That's what I'm trying to say. Much as you might not want your behavior, or anyone else's, described as horrible, it is most certainly not extreme or harsh. Really. I've seen worse in response to a single assignment. Over and over again.

Given the context of the rest of the letter, it's even a reasonable conclusion. He created a horrible first impression for girls in his computer programming class. He needs to own it or alter it. Might hurt to do either. That is good and right.

I'm not feeling you actually understood what I said at all. The original letter lacked the context to justify the tone, hence people's reaction to it.

And I'm not at all familiar with what you may have been exposed to, but that was a pretty harsh accusation there. "You fucked up this girl's one chance!"

[thistlepong]

I'm not feeling you actually understood what I said at all. The original letter lacked the context to justify the tone, hence people's reaction to it.

And I'm not at all familiar with what you may have been exposed to, but that was a pretty harsh accusation there. "You fucked up this girl's one chance!"

The original letter's all context. It's fine. It's critical. Criticism is okay.

You quoted my post, so I really wanna assume you read it. I'm not sure how you missed "what I may have been exposed to," but whatever. I've seen dozens of feedback letters and emails and dealt with school and district fallout resulting from parents too ignorant or overwhelmed to try this kind of diplomacy.

Your paraphrase of her comment is ludicrous, sputtering rage. If you don't understand everything prior to the word horrible to be context adequate to reconcile mild frustration, then that probably says more about you and your expectations than the letter. Golly, she even makes it explicitly clear that wasn't her daughter's only chance. Far from it.

[Sci-2]

The extra update confirming that they brought the issue directly to the teacher and even suggested ways to deal with it makes her blaming him make complete sense cause he really did just ignore the problem and let the bullshit keep on trucking.

+1. The first letter's accusations came off as hyperbolic and unappreciative of a teacher's time and commitment to me as well.

[TrueMetis]

+1. The first letter's accusations came off as hyperbolic and unappreciative of a teacher's time and commitment to me as well.

Context is important, Original letter "well if your daughter didn't say anything maybe the teacher didn't know." Updated letter "oh fuck that guy."

[Shryke]

The original letter's all context. It's fine. It's critical. Criticism is okay.

You quoted my post, so I really wanna assume you read it. I'm not sure how you missed "what I may have been exposed to," but whatever. I've seen dozens of feedback letters and emails and dealt with school and district fallout resulting from parents too ignorant or overwhelmed to try this kind of diplomacy.

Your paraphrase of her comment is ludicrous, sputtering rage. If you don't understand everything prior to the word horrible to be context adequate to reconcile mild frustration, then that probably says more about you and your expectations than the letter. Golly, she even makes it explicitly clear that wasn't her daughter's only chance. Far from it.

The original letter is without context and that's the problem.

The updated letter is equally a harsh condemnation of the teacher, it's just with the extra context it's now valid harsh condemnation.

And my paraphrase is exactly how it comes off. "You ruined her one chance to make a first impression about how great programming is". She is directly accusing the teacher of screwing up a one shot thing for her daughter.

[thistlepong]

Cor. Here's the original:

Sadly, you only get one chance to make a first impression, and you, sir, created a horrible one for girls in computer programming.

And my paraphrase is exactly how it comes off. "You ruined her your one chance to make a first impression about how great programming is". She is directly accusing the teacher of screwing up a one shot thing for her daughter.

fixed for object agreement, still needlessly hyperbolic

not so much as this, though... you recognize the difference(s), right?

"You fucked up this girl's your one chance (this time)!"

also fixed for object agreement

Context is important, Original letter "well if your daughter didn't say anything maybe the teacher didn't know." Updated letter "oh fuck that guy."

See... I'm really trying to impart, as a for reals potential recipient or adjacent recipient, how the letter would function irl. Yah, it might hirt the guy's feelings. But it's informative and productive. All the necessary context is there. She acknowledges he prolly didn't know, but she's still mad. I can respect that.

[Shryke]

You mostly seem to be trying to impart grammar lessons while still missing the point: that it's only obvious that the letter would be "informative and productive" given the new information at hand. Previously it looked neither.

[karaddin]

Ok you didn't like the execution of the original letter and feel it was placing an unfair burden on teachers, others disagreed. More context has come out and now you agree the teacher failed, how the fuck are we still arguing about how the original letter was a problem?

This follows on nicely from the kotaku link Sci posted yesterday, another female game maker speaking up about issues in the game industry - although this is more getting back towards the original discussion of sexism on content, while still mentioning the issues in the workplace environment.

[Spring Bass]

It's a good article, and it brought up that 45% of gamers point again. Would a dedicated, public boycott of a prominent franchise game by female gamers make a difference? If it really cuts into sales, the game makers will start feeling the heat from higher ups at EA and other publishers.

[karaddin]

I think one thing gamers of any gender have demonstrated is that we are fucking awful at boycotting games we want to play due to social issues. You try, but then the game comes out and other people are playing it, and it looks awesome...and you end up caving.

I'd like to see this change, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Hell we can't even manage it over actual game play/DLC etc issues.

[TerraPrime]

I thought the figure considers all video games, including social video games like Farmville, and not the video games that garner all the sexist elements, like the FPS (CoD) and sports franchises?

[karaddin]

I believe it does include all those games yes, so the figure for women playing what might be considered "real games" would be lower, but it's still going to be a reasonably large chunk of the market and I think that piece is right to conclude that the numbers of women who would be willing to play "real games" would increase if the sexist elements in much of gaming were reduced or eliminated.

It hasn't come up in this thread, but look at the response to Gone Home which I've seen praised by women all over the internet (and I certainly enjoyed immensely). It isn't a game that's pushing bullshit gender stereotypes, it just attempts to tell a story that women can more easily relate to than many games and it was a story that seemingly resonated with a lot of them. I'd actually love to talk about that in Ent, but no one else seemed to have even heard of it :P

ETA: Further studies of gender breakdown of the gaming audience that included genres/platforms would be very useful for this conversation, hopefully some will be done/come out soon.

[TerraPrime]

ETA: Further studies of gender breakdown of the gaming audience that included genres/platforms would be very useful for this conversation, hopefully some will be done/come out soon.

Oh I will bet a good dollar that it's been done, by private companies as part of their marketing and development research. The data is just not being released. But if we look at the outcome, we can safely say that the result suggests that the game developers don't need to worry about women in some genres and platforms because they keep putting out incredibly sexist crap.

[karaddin]

Oh I will bet a good dollar that it's been done, by private companies as part of their marketing and development research. The data is just not being released. But if we look at the outcome, we can safely say that the result suggests that the game developers don't need to worry about women in some genres and platforms because they keep putting out incredibly sexist crap.

Well pandering to the existing player base is easier than taking the risk of trying to cultivate a new one. Doesn't mean there isn't money to be made there, and potential for better gender balance in gaming, just that a risk averse, short term profit chasing company isn't willing to do it. I imagine if it happens it will happen slowly, with indie devs cultivating the fan base until it's too big for the main publishers to ignore.

[Shryke]

I thought the figure considers all video games, including social video games like Farmville, and not the video games that garner all the sexist elements, like the FPS (CoD) and sports franchises?

Yes, it seems to. If it's from the same gamer survey you see quoting the figure everywhere, the released results (no crosstabs) deliberately leave many issues vague. Issues like "What do you define as a gamer?" and "What are the breakdowns by type of game or genre of game or amount player per day, etc, etc wrt gender and other factors?".

You know, basically everything that would actually tell us something useful. I've never seen a study of this that shows that stuff, so it's all generally pretty useless.

And it makes me suspect that they deliberately don't release the crosstabs and thus there's something in there about the gender breakdown of gamers across genres and such that deflates their point.

FYI, this is almost certainly the paper in question:

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2013.pdf

It's done by the ESA. Their mission:

The Entertainment Software Association (ESA) is the U.S. association exclusively dedicated to serving the business and public affairs needs of companies that publish computer and video games for video game consoles, personal computers, and the Internet. ESA offers a global content protection program, business and consumer research, government relations, and intellectual property protection efforts. ESA also owns and operates E3.

http://www.theesa.com

Which I find quite illuminating as to why the information they release is structured the way it is.

[Penguin king]

I think one thing gamers of any gender have demonstrated is that we are fucking awful at boycotting games we want to play due to social issues. You try, but then the game comes out and other people are playing it, and it looks awesome...and you end up caving.

I'd like to see this change, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Hell we can't even manage it over actual game play/DLC etc issues.

I don't know why people have such trouble with taking a stand as a consumer. Especially on something as "trivial" as videogames. It's not like there isn't a huge selection of games out there to chose from. You don't have to by every game that comes along and looks vaguely interesting.

Maybe I have an easier time boycotting becase i've never primarally been a social gamer. Sure i'll play games online with my mates, but only if they're playing the same thing I am. I've never felt the urge to buy something just because everyone else is playing it. (Well once for WOW, but that was the only time, and my entire social circle had talked about almost nothing else for months). Now days, I just buy what I want to play, and if a Game's DRM, or social politics or whatever negatively outweighs my interest in it, then I don't buy it.