Women and Minority in Geek Culture - Part the 4

[TerraPrime]

To continue the discussion on the HarleyQuinn fiasco:

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/123917-jim-lee-speaks-on-harleygate-teaches-fans-about-context.html

[Sci-2]

To continue the discussion on the HarleyQuinn fiasco:

http://www.theouthou...ut-context.html

I suspect DC will just weather this storm as it's unlikely they'll see a drop in sales.

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Gender Bender DNA Twister Extreme: A Transgender Rom Com Visual Novel Created By Two Guys

Lachlan insists that, although Gender Bender is a comedy with gender identity and sexuality at its heart, and although it does contain some really ridiculous scenes, like cat girls and breast expansion, it’s a game that doesn’t play off its themes as a joke.

“For example, one of the characters had been considering transitioning prior to the accident and is now really happy about this sudden transformation. But another character had never even thought about being a girl, but now that she is one, she really begins to wonder if she’s actually preferring it, and her perspective on life changes completely,” Lachlan says.

It might be somewhat surprising to know that Lachlan, the writer and programmer of Gender Bender, is not transgender himself, nor is artist David Kerr. However, they are aware that the characters and themes of the game do effect the lives of real people, and they’re not out to cause upset.

“We’ve spoken with a number of transgendered people via forums or email, and we’ve tried to treat the issue with the respect it deserves,” Lachlan reveals. “Even though we’re a comedy game, we’re hoping we can use that to tackle some bigger issues that are often ignored.”

[Galactus]

I'm seriously not getting DC at all. I mean, Marvel's hardly great when it comes to these sorts of things, but they feel like your average male-dominated slightly niché corporate types.

DC? It feels like they're actively trying to alienate people at times. What the fuck is going on with their PR department?

[Sci-2]

I'm seriously not getting DC at all. I mean, Marvel's hardly great when it comes to these sorts of things, but they feel like your average male-dominated slightly niché corporate types.

DC? It feels like they're actively trying to alienate people at times. What the fuck is going on with their PR department?

DC is known for editorial control, driving creators away, sexual harassment in the workplace, and so on. Their female characters are probably about the same level of progressive as Marvel though.

Marvel seems to have a more pro-female environment in the workplace, as well as more progressive staff. I think there are more female artists and writers there and Bendis - one of the major architects of Marvel's comics - said OSC was promoting hate speech.

DC had Vertigo which was way more progressive than anything else the big two were putting out, and probably more progressive than almost all the major comics publications in 90s and early 00s, but it's impact is so miniscule now.

Though Marvel does have Mark Millar....

[karaddin]

Been seeing a lot more talk and backlash against the sexist environments in the time since these threads started (although obviously there is also the backlash against this backlash which is most of what we discuss). I think this movement is more widespread than merely the entertainment/fandom parts of geek culture, as I've also seen a lot more about the lack of women in tech and those women standing up and trying to change it.

Dan Abraham linked this great letter from a programmer mother to a teacher of her daughter, after 1 semester of his programmer class completely turned her daughter off a career in programming etc.

For her entire life, I'd encouraged my daughter to explore computer programming. I told her about the cool projects, the amazing career potential, the grants and programs to help girls and women get started, the wonderful people she'd get to work with, and the demand for diversity in IT. I took her with me to tech conferences and introduced her to some of the brightest, most inspiring and encouraging women and men I've ever met.

Sadly, you only get one chance to make a first impression, and you, sir, created a horrible one for girls in computer programming.

Did you not see her enthusiasm turn into a dark cloud during the semester? Did you not notice when she quit laughing with and helping her classmates, and instead quickly finished her assignments and buried her nose in a book? What exactly were you doing when you were supposed to be supervising the class and teaching our future programmers?

[Shryke]

Been seeing a lot more talk and backlash against the sexist environments in the time since these threads started (although obviously there is also the backlash against this backlash which is most of what we discuss). I think this movement is more widespread than merely the entertainment/fandom parts of geek culture, as I've also seen a lot more about the lack of women in tech and those women standing up and trying to change it.

Dan Abraham linked this great letter from a programmer mother to a teacher of her daughter, after 1 semester of his programmer class completely turned her daughter off a career in programming etc.

Well the story itself is really sad, I don't think there's near enough information, on our part or the mother's part, to go shitting all over the teacher for the behaviour of the other students in class.

[karaddin]

Well I would hazard that the mother has more information than is conveyed in the letter, and as the teacher isn't named I don't see the problem for calling this out as an example of a problem in this field that starts right from a young age. Or in asking for teachers in this field to be more proactive in preventing the problem.

[Shryke]

Well I would hazard that the mother has more information than is conveyed in the letter, and as the teacher isn't named I don't see the problem for calling this out as an example of a problem in this field that starts right from a young age. Or in asking for teachers in this field to be more proactive in preventing the problem.

I think it's a good example, I just don't think it's necessarily the teacher's fault at all. Certainly not based on what she presented.

[karaddin]

I think part of the message that is trying to be conveyed (not necessarily just in this letter, but in the broader context of this discussion) is that it's not enough to not engage in this behaviour yourself, we need people to call it out and stop it when they see it. In this case I don't think it's unreasonable for saying a teacher has failed if the one female student in his class has suffered harassment on the basis of being female and in that class. He may not be the one responsible for creating that culture, but he is responsible for failing to stop it and that's what he needed to do. We need to be proactive about creating an environment and a culture of inclusiveness, you can't just do that by being reactive.

[TrueMetis]

I think part of the message that is trying to be conveyed (not necessarily just in this letter, but in the broader context of this discussion) is that it's not enough to not engage in this behaviour yourself, we need people to call it out and stop it when they see it. In this case I don't think it's unreasonable for saying a teacher has failed if the one female student in his class has suffered harassment on the basis of being female and in that class. He may not be the one responsible for creating that culture, but he is responsible for failing to stop it and that's what he needed to do. We need to be proactive about creating an environment and a culture of inclusiveness, you can't just do that by being reactive.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't the letter say that they decided against going to the teacher about this? So it's entirely possible that the teacher just didn't notice. Especially as the daughter seems to have been fairly advanced, in my experience teachers tend to focus more on the struggling students and less on the ones that are doing well.

[Sci-2]

Yeah, it's a bit weird to blame the teacher when they didn't even approach him.

I had good teachers who didn't always notice I was being picked on. And admittedly, good teachers didn't notice when I was picking on others.

Is [the woman] working with the teacher to improve the class for future female students?

Has Abraham ever taught a class of kids? Or is this [letter on his site] another way for him to score brownie points while writing about Hispanics being taken down by some white guy in his urban fantasy novels?

[karaddin]

Abraham shared the letter on facebook and it's no different from me sharing it now, that seems awfully accusatory Sci. Can I not share this letter because I've never taught a class of kids?

He shared because his mother faced the same sort of shit being an architect before it was OK for women to be an architect, but I don't see how that's necessary or relevant to share the letter.

ETA: I'm also not sure what's with your crossed out cheap shot at him, I haven't read his urban fantasy but for the rest of his stuff he is probably the best SFF author I've read for diversity.

[brook]

The more I hear about American schools the less I understand what is going on over there. I had plenty of teachers not notice I was being picked on outside the class but the only time I've ever had it happen IN class it was being led by the teacher herself (and that is an entirely different story). How does one teach if without actually seeing what your students are doing? How big ARE the class sizes?

[Sci-2]

Well I crossed out the last part because I figured it was derailing. I can delete but I thought people here called deleting things out of a post coward editing?

In any case, people can share the letter if they want. But the initial part where it talks about how the teacher failed seems like what HE would call a chance for in group signaling than an accurate representation of the teacher's performance.

The latter part with suggestions seems useful though.

[karaddin]

And as I said in the other thread, sometimes what HE refers to as in group signaling is BS. This was primarily a letter written TO the teacher. It was shared because this problematic culture is everywhere and it needs to change, so sharing it without sharing the specifics of the teacher isn't calling him out, but is calling attention to the issue. Maybe like Brook I just have higher expectations of teachers, but I don't being alert to potential bullying of a minority group in your class is unreasonable to look for in good teachers. Nor do I think asking teachers to proactively create an inclusive atmosphere to try and deter the bullying from happening in the first place is unreasonable.

[emberling]

The more I hear about American schools the less I understand what is going on over there. I had plenty of teachers not notice I was being picked on outside the class but the only time I've ever had it happen IN class it was being led by the teacher herself (and that is an entirely different story). How does one teach if without actually seeing what your students are doing? How big ARE the class sizes?

Most of my HS computer courses had almost no traditional lecture time (where the teacher interacts with all students simultaneously); everyone would have some project to work on and the teacher would mostly spend his time moving around the room helping individual students one-by-one with their projects. It was also encouraged for students to help each other. So there was plenty of room for quiet nasty interactions that the teacher wouldn't have been able to tell apart, at a glance, from quiet friendly interactions. Not that I ever saw any. But there could have been.

Incidentally, the number of openly female members of these classes - eight-ish classes over four years - was zero. Class sizes ranged from six to twenty-five.

This was over ten years ago, though.

[Shryke]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't the letter say that they decided against going to the teacher about this? So it's entirely possible that the teacher just didn't notice. Especially as the daughter seems to have been fairly advanced, in my experience teachers tend to focus more on the struggling students and less on the ones that are doing well.

Yeah, that's my only problem with the letter. She seems to have not approached the teacher and I find it totally credible he didn't know about it. I guess it seems unnecessary to me to blame the teacher for the issue from what I read.

[karaddin]

Whether you agree with that the teacher not being aware of what was going on and acting to stop it is a failure or not, that's hardly the important part of the discussion. The point is from the very get go women are told "you do not belong in tech, we will mock you and be sexist asses around you until you leave". It happens at College, it happens in the work force and apparently it happens at high school too. That attitude needs to change.

[Kat]

Most of my HS computer courses had almost no traditional lecture time (where the teacher interacts with all students simultaneously); everyone would have some project to work on and the teacher would mostly spend his time moving around the room helping individual students one-by-one with their projects. It was also encouraged for students to help each other. So there was plenty of room for quiet nasty interactions that the teacher wouldn't have been able to tell apart, at a glance, from quiet friendly interactions. Not that I ever saw any. But there could have been.

Incidentally, the number of openly female members of these classes - eight-ish classes over four years - was zero. Class sizes ranged from six to twenty-five.

This was over ten years ago, though.

Incidentally, I had the same experience trying to take a computer science class in high school. I tried to join a few days into the semester. I met the prerequisites and I was one of the best math students at school. However, I was the only girl in the class and I didn't know any of the kids in the class as they were all in other grades. The teacher was openly skeptical of my being a year younger than the other students and thought I shouldn't be there, and told me I had to catch up on my own. The other students, not knowing me, did not volunteer/were too busy to help me figure it out. I dropped the class a few days later because it seemed like no one wanted me there. Incidentally, in middle school, I had been pretty into computers and would figure out on my own how to make new levels in freeware games, took a summer electronics/circuits class (in which I was the only girl, again), etc. (This was in the 90s.) Usually between middle school and high school is where girls start to lose interest in science/tech/engineering things. I maintained my interest in hard sciences and eventually ended up doing that because while my short-term CS teacher didn't see any potential for me, my physics teachers did.

It kind of sucks to be one of the only girl in the room interested in something. I heard a thing on NPR a few weeks ago that I can't remember any of the details of it, but it studied women in tech fields and found that more women leads to more women. (Law of Attraction? Hrm.) I noticed the same thing informally at my undergraduate institution, which was overall primarily male. There were some departments that just ended up with a bunch of female students, such as Astrophysics. That had nearly all the same requirements as Physics, and yet was mostly female while Physics was mostly male. Same thing for Geology and Planetary Science. That ratio was not duplicated in the grad student population; it seemed to be unique to the undergrads and I'm fairly certain it had something to do with networks of female undergraduates making an impression on each other. That's essentially how I ended up being recruited for geology. :dunno: Anyway, I work with a chemistry teacher who I've heard through the grapevine thinks I was only hired because I'm female. (Whatever, fuck off, I have the most degrees of any science or math teacher in the school and am eminently qualified to teach high school science.) Whether or not that's true I don't really care, because I actually do think that my very presence in the classroom as a woman who knows what she's talking about with regard to physical science is making it seem more "normal". We had our science club elections today and most of the people who showed up were girls. Who wanted to look up stuff with explosives to do next week. I'm so proud of them? :uhoh: Anyway, I may not have ever gotten into comics or video games-- they were simply not on my radar at all growing up--but I can at least geek out about science, which despite its flaws, treated me better than computer science ever did.

[Shryke]

My experience in various science/math majors and classes and such is there's some really strange but very noticeable gender and ethnic skews in them. It might change based on school and location too (although not that much between the places I saw in Canada)

I noticed the same gender skew you did in Physics vs Astronomy (although perhaps not as bad since there was still like 1/4 women in Physics)

CS had alot less women as a percentage, although more of them in total since CS classes were always fucking ginourmous.