Fill in the Gaping Plot Hole

[Lonin]

I don't know whether this counts as a plot hole but I was bothered by the fact that Starks in the beginning of GOT, seem to be quite isolated, not only from the rest of the realm but from the North as well. Theon Greyjoy, Ned's ward was basically the only highborn noble that the Stark kids knew well and he lived with them as a result of Balon's Rebellion, but otherwise they do not seem to be that social and this is strange, especially if someone considers the fact that Starks are loved in the North.

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:agree:

I also found this strange... the lack of noble friends/companions for the Stark kids seemed odd.

[Maxpey]

We no the sack was orchestrated by Roose because Ramsay saved the freys, he wouldn't know to do that without daddy's backing.

Edit: Didn't see RumHam has said the same thing

Thanks to both you and RumHam for finding evidence to support my initial claim that Roose was behind the sack. :cheers:

ed. grammar

[juanml82]

About the Starks lack of friends, it's a common feature in fiction. You can't just expand, specially at the beginning, and name all 10-20 acquaintances of each of the important characters. They do have a social world in Winterfell, we don't know if Jon and Robb travelled with Ned and they receive lords, and their families, at Winterfell, as it happens when Bran welcomes Lords to Winterfell.

It's just that the story can't go into the details of the relationship between Jon and Hallis Morren (sp?) because it's backstory and, if it had to be included, it wouldn't ever end.

[Greymoon]

I find it implausible the North could have stood off Andal invasions for six thousand years at Moat Cailin, given the North's endless coastline.

We know the Andals had ships. We know they invaded the South, in exactly that way, quite successfully.

We know they wanted to invade the North and repeatedly tried.

We know ships certainly can land on the Northern coast, because that's exactly what Asha does.

We know the Andals had steel weapons and the First Men did not, which certainly would have helped them succeed in any such invasion.

We never hear of any fleet of ships in the North that might have served as some sort of defense, except the one burned by Brandon the Burner.

My flimsy, BS, makes-no-sense explanation is that for six thousand years, the Andals were always defeated by horrible storms the CotF magically sent at invading fleets in retaliation for what happened in the South.

One factor that is often underestimated in asymmetrical warfare is the knowledge of the land. The Andals had no map of Westeros, for all we know they were not even familiar with the coastline, less so the forest, mountains and caves. Just an idea.

[KingofSothoryos]

Still I think that this is off topic, so I don't think that there is any point in further arguing.

I think we have taken this as far as we can go. But it wasn't off topic, this tread is for plot holes and the plot hole in question was whether the Starks were unusually isolated? I thought it was plausible for circumstances and relationships to organically lead to their isolation, you did not. That is the essence of what this thread is about. So WELL STRUCK!

[David Selig]

Cersei's absolutely nonsensical plan to get Bronn killed really bugs me. She was the Queen Regent, he was a relative nobody with no powerful friends after Tyrion went into exile, she could've simply ordered him arrested and executed.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Q: How does Benjen get the visit Winterfell when the King is there, even though he is no longer a Stark?

A: He makes his own rules

He was invited by Ned. I thought that was explained in the books.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

There's something missing in the whole Tyrion/Littlefinger plotline.

I haven't read all the books for a while now, but I'm convinced that Tyrion figures out that Littlefinger is the one that lied to Catelyn about the dagger, thus framing Tyrion. And I'm pretty sure that he figures this out fairly early on, likely during his conversations with Catelyn in the Vale.

Yet he seems to forget all about this little bit of crucial information once he gets to King's Landing.

Question: What would happen to Tyrion - the son of a Great Lord - if he walked up to Littlefinger - a low birth Treasurer - and just stabbed him in the chest?

I reckon pretty much nothing. Maybe a scolding from his father. That's it.

And yet, Tyrion does NOTHING with the knowledge that Littlefinger tried to have him falsely imprisoned and potentially killed?

It always struck me as a fact conveniently ignored because the plot needed it to go away.

Tyrion doesn't have to figure it out, Catelyn straight out tells him and Tyrion responds that there's a hole in LF's story: Tyrion never bets against his family.

Tyrion hasn't forgotten about all this. He was planning to go to KL before Tywin sent him there to talk to LF. He later tells Tywin that LF cannot be trusted but Tywin dismisses him since LF provided the knowledge of the Tyrells planning to marry Sansa to Willas.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Q: how does a half starved illiterate mute (Wex Pyke) walk into White Harbor and not only gets audience with Wyman Manderly but explains and convinces him that he's Theon's squire and knows the truth about what happened in Winterfell?

A: because people are generally loving and trusting of the iron born especially sea folk

I thought that was explained in the books. When the Manderlys found him they didn't know who he was and they thought he was retarded because he couldn't communicate with anyone. Once he began to explain who he was and he began to explain what happened at Winterfell they began to pay more attention to him.

[Ser_Cortnay_Penrose]

These two points are relevant to the beginning of the thread but:

1. For the love of R'hollor, can we please stop with the outrage over wildling arrows reaching the top of the wall?!? It's not that unrealistic:

height of the wall = 700 ft = 213 m = 233 yards = a long par 3.

Optimum longbow range in 1350 = 1100 feet = 365m = 400 yards = a short par 4.

Yes they were shooting 700 ft UP not laterally, true, but the force that restricts an arrow's flight is primarily air resistance, not gravity. And even if 700 ft upward is slightly out of medeival longbow range...that's the part of the story you have a reality problem with? In a world of dragons and ice-zombies and prophecies and wargs and god-trees, you're bitching that the range of a wildling's longbow is slightly greater than your gut feeling tells you?

2. Why didn't Tyrion kill LF for misleading Catelyn and causing his arrest?!? Because it wouldn't have benefit him or his family, and Tyrion is smart. The thing with Tyrion is that, before he finally snaps after being framed, sentenced to death, and told the truth about the horribly traumatizing Tysha incident, he not really a character that holds a grudge. People basically shit on him the whole series, and he usually responds with a jest. He threatens Cersei with the awesome "ashes in your mouth" line, but never actually acts in vengeance. He's a calculator, a strategist, not a enraged butcher ready to kill over slights. LF is largely responsible for the Lannister's success maybe even utter survival in the Wot5K- if he hadn't betrayed Ned Stark, they might all be dead. If he hadn't won the Tyrells, Stannis might sit the IT. Cersei is the one who blindly makes enemies left and right, seeks bloody vengeance for the all perceived slights against her, lives in violent paranoia; Tyrion looks for clever alliances and advantages, not personal vendettas.

Sometimes I think we get so caught up in the plot details and the intrigues and the troop counts that we forget to consider the natures of the characters, which are really what drives and directs the whole plot in the first place, and are your biggest clues about how the story will conclude, as I've previously tried to argue to the apparent disinterest of all reading, hahaha.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Another big plot hole is why the Crown Prince of the North is left with no security, especially in times of war?? Its not like WF is the safest place in the world considering the very same Prince was nearly assassinated/killed 3 times right in WF. The fall of WF is one of the weakest points in the books(IMO).

He had security. Ser Rodrik was the Castellan but he left to go defend the castle Dagmer was attacking.

[Young Lion]

LF is largely responsible for the Lannister's success maybe even utter survival in the Wot5K- if he hadn't betrayed Ned Stark, they might all be dead. If he hadn't won the Tyrells, Stannis might sit the IT. Cersei is the one who blindly makes enemies left and right, seeks bloody vengeance for the all perceived slights against her, lives in violent paranoia; Tyrion looks for clever alliances and advantages, not personal vendettas.

Yeah, this is why I assumed Tyrion did nothing against Baelish in the end. He betrayed Eddard, helped the Lannisters keep the Throne and secured a Tyrell alliance. Tyrion probably realized what LF was trying to do, when he was helping Eddard, but considering Baelish "defected" to the Lannisters in the end he probably just forgot about it.

[alienarea]

All of these plot holes can be easily explained by the fact that Westeros and its society hasn't evolved in eight thousand years. Basically, it is populated by morons.

Some morons have more or less honor than Other morons, and occasionally someone stands out for not being as moronic as the rest. But, in general they are all dumb people.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

All of these plot holes can be easily explained by the fact that Westeros and its society hasn't evolved in eight thousand years. Basically, it is populated by morons.

Some morons have more or less honor than Other morons, and occasionally someone stands out for not being as moronic as the rest. But, in general they are all dumb people.

Well, that's an opinion I haven't heard before. They're all dumb. Okay. Did you enjoy reading 5000 pages about dumb people?

[juanml82]

Well, too many characters make stupid decisions. It's still fun to read, though.

[maarsen]

that was tywin.

Pretty sure it was Tyrion. That was why it was called the dwarf's pence.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

Cersei's absolutely nonsensical plan to get Bronn killed really bugs me. She was the Queen Regent, he was a relative nobody with no powerful friends after Tyrion went into exile, she could've simply ordered him arrested and executed.

I thought Bronn started gathering a small army of sellswords? I don't think he'd go easily.

[TheCasualObserver]

These two points are relevant to the beginning of the thread but:

1. For the love of R'hollor, can we please stop with the outrage over wildling arrows reaching the top of the wall?!? It's not that unrealistic:

height of the wall = 700 ft = 213 m = 233 yards = a long par 3.

Optimum longbow range in 1350 = 1100 feet = 365m = 400 yards = a short par 4.

Yes they were shooting 700 ft UP not laterally, true, but the force that restricts an arrow's flight is primarily air resistance, not gravity. And even if 700 ft upward is slightly out of medeival longbow range...that's the part of the story you have a reality problem with? In a world of dragons and ice-zombies and prophecies and wargs and god-trees, you're bitching that the range of a wildling's longbow is slightly greater than your gut feeling tells you?

2. Why didn't Tyrion kill LF for misleading Catelyn and causing his arrest?!? Because it wouldn't have benefit him or his family, and Tyrion is smart. The thing with Tyrion is that, before he finally snaps after being framed, sentenced to death, and told the truth about the horribly traumatizing Tysha incident, he not really a character that holds a grudge. People basically shit on him the whole series, and he usually responds with a jest. He threatens Cersei with the awesome "ashes in your mouth" line, but never actually acts in vengeance. He's a calculator, a strategist, not a enraged butcher ready to kill over slights. LF is largely responsible for the Lannister's success maybe even utter survival in the Wot5K- if he hadn't betrayed Ned Stark, they might all be dead. If he hadn't won the Tyrells, Stannis might sit the IT. Cersei is the one who blindly makes enemies left and right, seeks bloody vengeance for the all perceived slights against her, lives in violent paranoia; Tyrion looks for clever alliances and advantages, not personal vendettas.

Sometimes I think we get so caught up in the plot details and the intrigues and the troop counts that we forget to consider the natures of the characters, which are really what drives and directs the whole plot in the first place, and are your biggest clues about how the story will conclude, as I've previously tried to argue to the apparent disinterest of all reading, hahaha.

I'll take your point on the longbows (but it still bothers me) but I don't consider it out of character for Tyrion to seek vengeance on someone who wronged him. After the battle of blackwater Tyrion offers to pacify the Vale personally, motivated by Lysa Arryn's treatment of him. And I would consider LF shenanigans with the knife more than simply a "slight" as you put it. Tyrion did nothing to Littlefinger during his tenure as hand because GRRM needed LF's plan to continue unhindered.

Now fair enough, after the BB Tyrion is in no position to seek recriminations against LF in light of his help towards house Lannister. But what better way to indirectly hurt LF than by telling Tywin about the knife plot? Littlefinger helped put Wolf and Lion at each others throats - Tywin wouldn't care that Baelish later helped fix a problem he helped start - this is Tywin Lannister we're talking about, heads always roll. Again, it's a plot hole because LF has to get Sansa out of KL and start his manipulations in the Vale to set up the endgame.

[Howie Manderly]

Actually a traditional longbow could do 200 meters quite easily.

Wildlings don't have longbows

[Shepdeuce]

I thought that was explained in the books. When the Manderlys found him they didn't know who he was and they thought he was retarded because he couldn't communicate with anyone. Once he began to explain who he was and he began to explain what happened at Winterfell they began to pay more attention to him.

I guess that was a gap in my comprehension thanks for clearing that up