Fill in the Gaping Plot Hole

[The Human Abstract]

I think there is a difference between plot hole and "something I don't find realistic".

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

That or the whole thing was made up by Manderly to fool Davos, and by extension Stannis. The entire Wex story is illogical. An Ironborn wouldn't have been able to follow a Spearwife and a dire wolf halfway across the North undetected.

How could he make it all up? We know Wex was at Lordsport, we know he was at Winterfell, and then he somehow turns up in White Harbor.

[Miodrag]

Funny enough, I find some of the listed examples to be the very opposite of plot holes. For instance, Littlefinger not being executed by Tyrion: had Tyrion managed to successfully organize the defense of the city AND an execution of the person who holds to key to the entire economy of the realm, it would strike me as a plot hole, or, more precisely, a plot armor for Tyrion. The fact that in a chaotic state of affairs caused by the devastating civil war, people get distracted (Tyrion leaving LF issue for later times, and Rodrick neglecting the defense of the castle that was actually never ever threatened or under siege), seems not only plausible to me, but it also resembles the logic of the real life.

While I was typing this, The Human Abstract ninjad me with his remark I completely agree with: not every surprising or unexpected outcome is a plot hole.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Funny enough, I find some of the listed examples to be the very opposite of plot holes. For instance, Littlefinger not being executed by Tyrion: had Tyrion managed to successfully organize the defense of the city AND an execution of the person who holds to key to the entire economy of the realm, it would strike me as a plot hole, or, more precisely, a plot armor for Tyrion. The fact that in a chaotic state of affairs caused by the devastating civil war, people get distracted (Tyrion leaving LF issue for later times, and Rodrick neglecting the defense of the castle that was actually never ever threatened or under siege), seems not only plausible to me, but it also resembles the logic of the real life.

While I was typing this, The Human Abstract ninjad me with his remark I completely agree with: not every surprising or unexpected outcome is a plot hole.

Why are we acting like Littlefinger is a wizard? I'm pretty sure it's more important to remove a man who schemed to murder you and bring your house into war than to keep a skilled treasurer. Tywin Lannister himself tells Tyrion to kill him if he finds anything fishy about his activities.

Ask yourself this question. If Tywin knew about LF pinning the dagger on Tyrion, would he spare him because he's a good master of coin? Absolutely not, because that would be incredibly fucking stupid.

[Miodrag]

Why are we acting like Littlefinger is a wizard? I'm pretty sure it's more important to remove a man who schemed to murder you and bring your house into war than to keep a skilled treasurer. Tywin Lannister himself tells Tyrion to kill him if he finds anything fishy about his activities.

Ask yourself this question. If Tywin knew about LF pinning the dagger on Tyrion, would he spare him because he's a good master of coin? Absolutely not, because that would be incredibly fucking stupid.

I'm not saying LF is a wizard, but that I don't expect Tyrion to be one, let alone Tywin. One of the virtues LF possesses is that he keeps in the shadows. He never appears as a serious threat to anyone. Tyrion has a reason to suspect that image of LF, true enough, but he also has no undeniable proof that LF tried to have him killed, nor he has any sign of LF's true ambition. And he does need a peace in The Small Council. In fact, Tyrion is preoccupied with a mini-war against Cersei, and she actually is a more pressing danger to him than LF is. Now, Tyrion isn't afraid of battles, but picking that many wars at once, and at the very beginning of his tenure as a Hand, would actually be very stupid. Just imagine how Cersei could use LF's death against Tyrion had she found out he's somehow behind it.

As for Tywin, he's rootless. Tyrion isn't. I don't think that's Tywin's advantage. On the contrary. In Tyrion's shoes, I'd say Tywin would act more poorly than The Imp. But, that's another matter.

[TheCasualObserver]

Why are we acting like Littlefinger is a wizard? I'm pretty sure it's more important to remove a man who schemed to murder you and bring your house into war than to keep a skilled treasurer. Tywin Lannister himself tells Tyrion to kill him if he finds anything fishy about his activities.

Ask yourself this question. If Tywin knew about LF pinning the dagger on Tyrion, would he spare him because he's a good master of coin? Absolutely not, because that would be incredibly fucking stupid.

:agree:

If I hear one more person argue that LF was irreplaceable in his role I'm going to scream - Tyrion might not have LF's genius with money but he keeps everything ticking over as Master of coin in the very next book. Does additional revenue (to a family that prides itself on being the richest in Westeros) really take precedence over ridding the council of a man who engineered a war? Of course not.

[Miodrag]

Well, if Tyrion, at the beginning of ACOK, knew it was LF who engineered a war - e.g. had Lysa kill Jon Arryn and then write a letter to her sister in which she incriminates Lannisters - then Tyrion would definitely be the most genial wizard ever in the history of fiction.

[Lord of Dragonstone]

It's not just the Tyrells who have only ruled their regions since the Targaryen Conquest. The Tully, Greyjoy, and Baratheon families also only started ruling three-hundredish years ago. Also sometimes the name is carried on by someone who was a more distant relation then you might expect. Like if Harry the Heir were to become lord of the Vale he would take the Arryn name. There's also that story about the Stark line almost ending until it was continued by a half-wildling bastard.

I don't think this is a fair representation. And a few things: some were wiped out in the male line and were only able to continue in the female line where a Stark, for example, would take his mother's last name over his fathers to continue the house. Or a minor branch that had another name would take the name of the great house to continue it (there was an example in the text but I cannot remember at the moment) Another would be that a lot more houses are recent than you think: Baratheon, Highgarden, Tully, Greyjoy, and a few minor houses including the Whents are fairly recent (since the conquest) and some houses like the Lannisters are older than those above but are still new in the grand scheme of things. And realistically the Houses are not as close to extinction as you think. The Arryn line for example, Harry the Heir could take the name Arryn if he inherits by right through his mother's line instead of his current house name. The Baratheons also possibly have descendents of Harbert that might have a different family name if he himself only had daughters that could continue the house as well and it's rumored that House Bolling and Wensington are branches as well. That's how houses survive. It isn't always linear, but the name has power so minor or cadet branches will continue using it.

Fair enough. Although if whoever the nearest relative is simply takes on the old name, it seems hard to see how houses would ever become extinct. Who would Robb's heir have been before naming Jon? If he was a decent replacement then I don't see why it was necessary to name Jon his heir instead.

[TheCasualObserver]

Well, if Tyrion, at the beginning of ACOK, knew it was LF who engineered a war - e.g. had Lysa kill Jon Arryn and then write a letter to her sister in which she incriminates Lannisters - then Tyrion would definitely be the most genial wizard ever in the history of fiction.

He knew that LF framed him via the knife story. He knew that was what caused Cat to kidnap him. He knew that was the inciting incident for the war. He knew LF isn't crazy enough to do something like that as a goof. Did he know that LF engineered much of the war? Of course not. But Tyrion must have had suspicions considering how intelligent he is and had all that information to hand. Not responding to it in any real discernible way is baffling to me.

[Chaircat Meow]

I'm not saying LF is a wizard, but that I don't expect Tyrion to be one, let alone Tywin. One of the virtues LF possesses is that he keeps in the shadows. He never appears as a serious threat to anyone. Tyrion has a reason to suspect that image of LF, true enough, but he also has no undeniable proof that LF tried to have him killed, nor he has any sign of LF's true ambition. And he does need a peace in The Small Council. In fact, Tyrion is preoccupied with a mini-war against Cersei, and she actually is a more pressing danger to him than LF is. Now, Tyrion isn't afraid of battles, but picking that many wars at once, and at the very beginning of his tenure as a Hand, would actually be very stupid. Just imagine how Cersei could use LF's death against Tyrion had she found out he's somehow behind it.

As for Tywin, he's rootless. Tyrion isn't. I don't think that's Tywin's advantage. On the contrary. In Tyrion's shoes, I'd say Tywin would act more poorly than The Imp. But, that's another matter.

Tyrion had proof of LF's involvement in framing him, as Catelyn told him it was LF who claimed the dagger used to kill Bran was Tyrion's. Lf had been planting false information designed to steer the Lannisters and Starks into a war, and had been behind Tyrion going through hell into the bargain. Tyrion also had hints from Varys that it was LF who whispered in Joff's ear and brought about the death of Ned, the screw up whose orchestrators Tyrion had been permitted to execute. Tyrion might not have wanted to move on LF straight away, although the prospects were better once Slynt had been sent to the wall, but leaving that aside, it is odd that originally Tyrion never mentioned this when he was accompanying Tywin's army. 'O father, thought you ought to know, this war we're in, well, Littlefinger ... (it is unlcear when Tyrion twigs that Tywin lied to him about that being the reason for the war)' He doesn't bring it up when Tywin tells him to root out those playing him false on the council, and LF certainly qualifies given his involvement in the dagger business. Why didn't Tyrion tell Tywin in SoS too, when he still resented LF and even tried to get his appointment as lord of HH stopped? Surely he could have spilled the dirt, but instead he chose a weak argument, about LF being venal, rather than actually giving Kevan and his father the incriminating evidence. I've never seen a good explanation for any of this, and leaves aside the possibility of dealing with LF throughout his six month handship when he'd been allowed to trim the council. Tyrion wanted to reduce the whole Vale to punish Lysa for his treatment at her hands, lucky the bloodlust had cooled by the time he arrived in kl (for LF I mean).

edit: for the record, I think this is the only genuine 'plot hole' this thread has actually produced, the rest is just stuff people find implausible to various degrees, but Tyrion's weird and uncharacteristic attitude to LF needed an explanation, and it never got one.

[Cas Stark]

He knew that LF framed him via the knife story. He knew that was what caused Cat to kidnap him. He knew that was the inciting incident for the war. He knew LF isn't crazy enough to do something like that as a goof. Did he know that LF engineered much of the war? Of course not. But Tyrion must have had suspicions considering how intelligent he is and had all that information to hand. Not responding to it in any real discernible way is baffling to me.

Yeah, he's still holding a grudge against Lysa, who he knows is stone crazy, but no grudge against the mastermind behind the entire scheme that almost got him killed, framed him for attempting to kill an 8 year old and started a war. Yes, plot hole alrighty.

[Light a wight tonight]

How could he make it all up? We know Wex was at Lordsport, we know he was at Winterfell, and then he somehow turns up in White Harbor.

How could Wyman Manderly, the slickest operator in the North make up this story? The same Manderly who jails Davos in what's the Ritz Carlton of jail cells while telling the Freys that Davos's head is on a spike above his gate? The same Manderly who serves up some Freys in pies to the guests at Ramsay's wedding, especially Frey senior management?

He doesn't have to cover Wex's entire itinerary, just feed Davos a plausible story. What Davos believes is more important than what really happened.

[maarsen]

:agree:

If I hear one more person argue that LF was irreplaceable in his role I'm going to scream - Tyrion might not have LF's genius with money but he keeps everything ticking over as Master of coin in the very next book. Does additional revenue (to a family that prides itself on being the richest in Westeros) really take precedence over ridding the council of a man who engineered a war? Of course not.

Tyrion raises money by taxing sex, thereby having the wrath of the people brought down on him, which LF avoided. Tyrion wonders why does LF hates him so, as he has done him no harm, after discovering that he had owned the dagger that was used to try and kill Bran. He never took LF seriously, because he had no reason to. Once he did , it was too late.

[Jasta11]

I do agree that Tyrion not taking care of Littlefinger is very fishy. This is the guy who sent Pycelle to the dungeons over him being an informant for Cercei. Littlefinger engineers tensions, culminating in war, between the Lannisters and Starks, and Tyrion doesn't even have him questionned? Said tensions caused Tyrion (a very resentful guy) to be captured and treated like shit, and he simply forgets about it, even after he's given (almost) full powers by his dad to clean up the council?

Sorry, plot armour is the only explanation for that. It completely goes against Tyrion's nature not to investigate a potential traitor.

[Riptide]

On the number of ironmen troops:

According to SSM, their longships are like Viking longships, which according to Wikipedia, (see Snekkja on the longship page) had at least 20 rowing benches. As you need someone to steer, that's a crew of minimum 21. There are 100 ships in the Iron Fleet and 900 other ships that attack the Reach. Victarion describes the Iron Fleet ships as "thrice the size of any common longship" so they must have a crew of at least 63 each. So, 63X100+21X900. That equals 25,200. Now that's a minimum, because as well as the ship size, the Iron Islands left men behind in the North and must have lost some men attacking it. Could be a lot fewer than 40,000, but still far too many for such a small territory. The Twins, at about the same latitude could surely mobiles some 15,000 men given how many the Iron Islands can, which it clearly cannot.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I'm not saying LF is a wizard, but that I don't expect Tyrion to be one, let alone Tywin. One of the virtues LF possesses is that he keeps in the shadows. He never appears as a serious threat to anyone. Tyrion has a reason to suspect that image of LF, true enough, but he also has no undeniable proof that LF tried to have him killed, nor he has any sign of LF's true ambition. And he does need a peace in The Small Council. In fact, Tyrion is preoccupied with a mini-war against Cersei, and she actually is a more pressing danger to him than LF is. Now, Tyrion isn't afraid of battles, but picking that many wars at once, and at the very beginning of his tenure as a Hand, would actually be very stupid. Just imagine how Cersei could use LF's death against Tyrion had she found out he's somehow behind it.

As for Tywin, he's rootless. Tyrion isn't. I don't think that's Tywin's advantage. On the contrary. In Tyrion's shoes, I'd say Tywin would act more poorly than The Imp. But, that's another matter.

Tyrion knows for a fact Littlefinger pins the dagger on him and frames him for the attempt on Bran Stark's life. He has absolutely no reason to think that LF is harmless or not a threat. That single fact is one of the most bold moves someone made and Tyrion knows that Tywin goes to war after his capture. This can't be explained by Tyrion overlooking LF, regardless of the other battles he's fighting. In case you missed it, Tywin explains to him that he believes the small council is to blame for the recent stupidity of the crown, and he wants him to execute anyone with possiblly treasonous motives. So Tyrion discovers LF quite plainly planned to have the Starks and Lannisters at each others' throats and yet sits by while Tywin grants him a lordly seat and watches him garner power by marrying Lysa Tully. It's not even in Tyrion's nature to set aside something like that. The only explanation is that the plot required LF to be granted Harrenhall and marry Lysa and so something basically nonsensical happens to permit that.

How could Wyman Manderly, the slickest operator in the North make up this story? The same Manderly who jails Davos in what's the Ritz Carlton of jail cells while telling the Freys that Davos's head is on a spike above his gate? The same Manderly who serves up some Freys in pies to the guests at Ramsay's wedding, especially Frey senior management?

He doesn't have to cover Wex's entire itinerary, just feed Davos a plausible story. What Davos believes is more important than what really happened.

Well we know almost everything that really happened. What could Manderly be making up? The only possible way he ends up in White Harbor is by following Rickon and Osha.

[Miodrag]

Tyrion had proof of LF's involvement in framing him, as Catelyn told him it was LF who claimed the dagger used to kill Bran was Tyrion's. Lf had been planting false information designed to steer the Lannisters and Starks into a war, and had been behind Tyrion going through hell into the bargain. Tyrion also had hints from Varys that it was LF who whispered in Joff's ear and brought about the death of Ned, the screw up whose orchestrators Tyrion had been permitted to execute. Tyrion might not have wanted to move on LF straight away, although the prospects were better once Slynt had been sent to the wall, but leaving that aside, it is odd that originally Tyrion never mentioned this when he was accompanying Tywin's army. 'O father, thought you ought to know, this war we're in, well, Littlefinger ... (it is unlcear when Tyrion twigs that Tywin lied to him about that being the reason for the war)' He doesn't bring it up when Tywin tells him to root out those playing him false on the council, and LF certainly qualifies given his involvement in the dagger business. Why didn't Tyrion tell Tywin in SoS too, when he still resented LF and even tried to get his appointment as lord of HH stopped? Surely he could have spilled the dirt, but instead he chose a weak argument, about LF being venal, rather than actually giving Kevan and his father the incriminating evidence. I've never seen a good explanation for any of this, and leaves aside the possibility of dealing with LF throughout his six month handship when he'd been allowed to trim the council. Tyrion wanted to reduce the whole Vale to punish Lysa for his treatment at her hands, lucky the bloodlust had cooled by the time he arrived in kl (for LF I mean).

edit: for the record, I think this is the only genuine 'plot hole' this thread has actually produced, the rest is just stuff people find implausible to various degrees, but Tyrion's weird and uncharacteristic attitude to LF needed an explanation, and it never got one.

"Catelyn told him" is not exactly proof. For all Tyrion knows, LF just wanted to impress his old love Catelyn. Now, that doesn't seem too plausible, as in, Tyrion probably wouldn't think LF was just using the knife lie to win Cat's feelings, but with what little he knows at the moment when Cat tells him about the knife, Tyrion can conclude very little. He realizes Cat isn't lying, but that's about it. Everything else, e.g. why did LF manipulate her, and how, and was it actually him manipulating her or was LF also a victim of some manipulation, Tyrion just doesn't know. Some of those possibilities are much more believable than others, but the point is that LF is such a mystery to everyone in KL, Tyrion included, that the pure fact he told a false information to Cat doesn't prove much. It raises suspicion, but not much else.

But, that's not really important, because what we're doing here is a standard game in this type of discussions, in which you prove how thorough in making questions you are, while I prove how imaginative in providing answers I can be. Neither proves that actual situation from the book is a plot hole indeed, just like neither disproves. What I'd consider a plot hole is something that can't be 'defended' on reasonable grounds. For example, any villain's plot in Nolan's Batman trilogy. Like Joker keeping Harvey and Rachel on separate locations: why the hell would that be a problem for a police force, e.g. an entity with multiple vehicles? Why would it mean only one survives? That is what I call a plot hole, or, if you want, a very stupid plot decision.

This with LF isn't such a case, for the reason that some explanations of Tyrion's inaction are quite possible. One may find some or many of those explanations not entirely believable, though in that case I'd say that this kind of story, with so many characters making all kinds of decisions in the most dire of circumstances, is only going to challenge his/her belief more and more. Now, it doesn't mean GRRM is necessarily above reproach on Tyrion/LF. It is a fact that GRRM didn't elaborate too much on a Tyrion's decision to wait with an action against LF. One may find that a failure. I don't, because - the book is not with me at the moment, so I'm not 100 percent sure about how the quote goes - Tyrion, when he first encounters LF upon arrival in KL, thinks to himself something like "I didn't forget you tried to frame me and I'll deal with it when the time comes", or something to that effect. Which probably means GRRM didn't forget that Tyrion should be extremely suspicious of LF. Again, one's free to find it under-explained, but I wouldn't call it a plot hole.

As for Tyrion not telling Tywin, it's a similar situation. GRRM did go great lengths to show how intimidated Tyrion was with an encounter with his father in their army camp. And on top of that, the encounter goes not according to Tyrion's plan. And very soon we see Tyrion was right to feel so strange and uncomfortable, because Tywin actually didn't give a damn about Tyrion's life, as evidenced with putting him in the vanguard. Somehow, I'd hesitate to share my conclusion with a father like that. Even when Tywin sends him to KL to rule as The Hand, Tyrion knows better than to think his father did it out of some positive opinion on him, let alone some positive feeling.

What I'm trying to say is, in a nutshell, this: of course it would be smarter to deal with LF on ASAP basis, but there are reasons why Tyrion was distracted and failed to act in the smartest way possible. Every character in ASOIAF mistakes and miscalculates at some important point. Even the most clever ones, like Tyrion. Even those 'players' that appear the most skillful at this point, like LF and Varys, did learn their lessons the hard way: LF by getting himself embarrassed and nearly killed in the duel he provoked even though he didn't have a chance to win, and Varys by surviving through rough neighborhoods and mutilation in his youth. Which is why I think every turn GRRM's plot takes is well earned, at least by some exposition. In it's core, this is the story of bad decisions made because of the lack of information or character flaws, and I don't see why Tyrion would be an exception. His LF mistake is in accordance with the nature of the story, and I happen to respect the story precisely because of that nature. That's why I don't have a problem with someone acting 'out of character'. Everyone in ASOIAF acts 'out of character' at some point. Without it, the story would be boring and predictable, I suspect. It's just that I think GRRM makes his heroes act 'out of character' in believable manners, just like people in real life often behave 'out of character'.

And, since you brought it up, the example with Lysa also suggests Tyrion isn't the quickest Lannister around when it comes to paying his debts. When he recruits The Vale tribes, he's all about retaliating against Lysa. But after, he barely thinks of her, and he actually does nothing to harm her or endanger her rule. So, maybe his LF inaction isn't even 'out of character' as it may appear.

[KingofSothoryos]

Tyrion doesn't tell Tywin about the dagger because that would probably lead to an uncomfortable conversation about Bran seeing Jaime and Cersei getting it on.

[Miodrag]

Tyrion knows for a fact Littlefinger pins the dagger on him and frames him for the attempt on Bran Stark's life. He has absolutely no reason to think that LF is harmless or not a threat. That single fact is one of the most bold moves someone made and Tyrion knows that Tywin goes to war after his capture. This can't be explained by Tyrion overlooking LF, regardless of the other battles he's fighting. In case you missed it, Tywin explains to him that he believes the small council is to blame for the recent stupidity of the crown, and he wants him to execute anyone with possiblly treasonous motives. So Tyrion discovers LF quite plainly planned to have the Starks and Lannisters at each others' throats and yet sits by while Tywin grants him a lordly seat and watches him garner power by marrying Lysa Tully. It's not even in Tyrion's nature to set aside something like that. The only explanation is that the plot required LF to be granted Harrenhall and marry Lysa and so something basically nonsensical happens to permit that.

In case I missed it?! Wow, I don't remember you being that demanding toward material while we were discussing the TV show a couple of months ago. It's a nice change. But, to clear the issue: no, I didn't miss it. What I did miss, however, is the moment when Tyrion becomes certain LF has treasonous motives. I really don't remember Tyrion recognizing LF's treasonous motives in the fact that LF told a false information to his childhood love. That escaped me. Care to remind me of that exact moment?

And one more thing: when Tyrion arrives in KL, LF is, for all he knows, a loyal ally of Cersei. That moronic 'power is power' scene happened only in the show, but not in the books. In the novel, there is no evidence of any hostility between Cersei and LF. Tyrion arrives in the capital after two of them just managed to overpower and execute the previous Hand, one Ned Stark, a guy who's kinda famous for bringing down the almighty Targaryen dynasty. So, Tyrion has to factor in Cersei's possible response if he acts against LF. At least I would, in his shoes. And at the beginning, his position is significantly weaker than Cersei's, which does tend to delay any action against LF.

And once again, the most important point: all this doesn't mean I'm claiming one has to love the way GRRM handled Tyrion-LF situation. It can be under-explained, or underdeveloped, for one's taste. But a plot hole it isn't.

[ejhawman]

There's absolutely no reason why Tyrion wouldn't act against LF during his tenure as Hand. The excuse Martin gives is that he's "armored in gold" but I don't buy that because of what Tyrion says when LF offers to broker the Joff/Marg and needs money and gifts to do it:

"Take what you need. Stannis will take it all anyway." In a city under threat of siege money becomes increasingly unimportant compared to weapons and food. Tyrion was a somewhat milder person during AGOT and COK to be sure, but he still showed his teeth to anyone who threatened him and LF definitely fits that bill. Not telling his father anything about it is also counter intuitive and stupid from a character who is otherwise shown to be decisive and intelligent.

I've seen people decry some authors because they give their heroes plot armor - GRRM does the same to his villains. But whilst Littlefinger is one of the best protected, he's not top of the list, because at least his survival is predicated upon his abilities as a schemer, however improbable they may be.

No, the absolute luckiest SOB in the entire series is none other than Ramsay Snow, later Bolton.

It's lucky for the son of a humble miller's wife to have a nobles blood.

It's exceptionally lucky for that noble's trueborn son to decide he wants a brother and go out and find his baseborn half sibling and offer him the hand of friendship.

It almost beggars belief that the baseborn boy would kill his trueborn brother and not be punished for it because his father thinks he won't live long enough to see another son to adulthood - "boy lords are the bane of their houses"

It's staggering that said baseborn boy, already in a precarious position as a known kinslayer, would then allow himself to become infamous for the rape, torture and skinning of women on his father's lands.

It's ridiculous that said skinner would then contrive to abduct, forcibly wed, rape and intentionally starve to death a noblewoman with the intent to take her lands for himself, still without getting caught.

It's taking the piss to suggest that he could then survive the party of men sent to kill him by dressing as his servant who dies in his place. Even though said servant was also guilty of rape and murder, he is not executed but taken back to the center of the North's government.

It's staggeringly lucky that said center of government would then be overthrown by a hostile force who would free him and allow him to serve them.

It's just stupid to suggest that the hostile force would release our lucky hero with a bag of silver in the hope he could bring aid.

It's moronic to suggest that he could then bring his father's garrison to a battle field and outwit the same dumb castellan he tricked into thinking he was a servant, winning a victory against a force nearly four times larger than his own.

It's mind boggling that our hero would promptly kill all the hostile force he had come help and butcher the household of his usual overlords.

At this point, Ramsay has made an enemy of both the forces nominally in control of the North. Yet fate (GRRM) contrives to wipe out the Starks before they can take vengeance and kill Balon Greyjoy, thereby ending any real Ironborn threat to the North. Despite all his crimes, lack of political nous and the hatred of almost the entire North, Ramsay has his bastardy removed, Lordship of Hornwood confirmed, is given the last Stark (not really) as a bride, becomes Lord of Winterfell and still stands to inherit the Dreadfort as well. All from a man who started life as an uneducated, low born peasant. He's the biggest social climber in the series by a wide margin. LF's got nothing on Ramsay f**king Snow.

I'm calling BS Mr Martin!

:bowdown:

When you put it that way... yeah, Ramsey is the biggest plot hole in the series.

Best I can guess: People have more important things on their minds. Most don't actually put all this together. But that's not enough: too many of the guests at his wedding must be either in tight with him, or scared to death of him, or Hodor.