Fill in the Gaping Plot Hole

[David Selig]

Exactly. Rodrik didn't seem like a very good strategist to me anyways. I think the Lord would have been the one to tell him not to take all the men, but in this case it was Bran... Who leaves a 11 year old in charge of the seat of power in the North?

Bran wasn't in charge, he was a minor obviously, Rodrik was in charge as the castellan of WF and he made all the decisions with Luwin being his main advisor.

And yeah, the taking of WF is very contrived. Noone would leave the capital castle of the North with only 20 men garrison, when there was a war going on. Sure, enemy coming so deep was unlikely, but far from impossible.

[E-Ro]

Renly having a force of one hundred thousand men and being able to properly feed, and control all of them.

[Free Northman]

If Winterfell could be taken by Theon with 20 men, it could also be taken by 20 wildlings (who got right up to the Wolfswood to take Bran hostage just a few months before), 20 Boltons, 20 Northern Bandits or 20 Lannister warriors dropped by boat North of the Neck and led by a turncloak northern scout.

The point is, it was ridiculous for Winterfell to be left so unguarded.

[MotherAnduin]

Shadow babies not being used over and over again. If Stannis can't be the father, surely someone else from his army of thousands can donate some sperm?

[Maxpey]

Another big plot hole is why the Crown Prince of the North is left with no security, especially in times of war?? Its not like WF is the safest place in the world considering the very same Prince was nearly assassinated/killed 3 times right in WF. The fall of WF is one of the weakest points in the books(IMO).

Well, I think this is at least plausible for a few reasons.

First, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square were buffers that any invader would first have to defeat in order to take Winterfell (at least from the West). Thus, it's reasonable for the inhabitants of Winterfell to assume it wouldn't have to be fully garrisoned.

Second, Theon's plan to draw Roderick Cassel and his guards away from Winterfell by having Dagmar Cleftjaw attack Torrhen's Square worked to perfection.

Third, Theon wouldn't have been able to hold Winterfell once Ser Roderick returned with his men. It was only Ramsay's treachery that led to Winterfell being burned.

Some things appear to be mistakes only in hindsight. IMO the fall of Winterfell is one of them.

[Free Northman]

Well, I think this is at least plausible for a few reasons.

First, Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square were buffers that any invader would first have to defeat in order to take Winterfell (at least from the West). Thus, it's reasonable for the inhabitants of Winterfell to assume it wouldn't have to be fully garrisoned.

Second, Theon's plan to draw Roderick Cassel and his guards away from Winterfell by having Dagmar Cleftjaw attack Torrhen's Square worked to perfection.

Third, Theon wouldn't have been able to hold Winterfell once Ser Roderick returned with his men. It was only Ramsay's treachery that led to Winterfell being burned.

Some things appear to be mistakes only in hindsight. IMO the fall of Winterfell is one of them.

Rodrik retaking Winterfell wouldn't have addressed the little issue of the Crown Prince being butchered by Theon before then.

The Crown Prince being left with anything less than 300 guards? Unthinkable.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yea, ok, fall of WF is total BS, not just partial/mostly BS, like I'd been saying.

[Maxpey]

Rodrik retaking Winterfell wouldn't have addressed the little issue of the Crown Prince being butchered by Theon before then.

The Crown Prince being left with anything less than 300 guards? Unthinkable.

I probably should have made this more clear in my post, but I am saying the fall of Winterfell is more a case of a plausible error in judgment by Rodrik and Luwin as opposed to a plot hole. Again, just my opinion.

[Dicer]

I found Ned still going along with Robert and the Lannisters after the events with Arya, Mycah and Lady a bit inexplicable. At this point he should have realized that it's a bit too dangerous, especially for his daughters, and that Robert was more or less a Lannister lackey. Why in the world would he have still wanted Joffrey (the idiot prince who tried to kill Arya) to marry Sansa?

I totally agree about LF. I never understood why Tyrion did not bring up the dagger. LF is a prime example of how the bad guys keep winning in ASOIAF. Lots of luck and plot armor.

[JonNonRegis]

I find it implausible the North could have stood off Andal invasions for six thousand years at Moat Cailin, given the North's endless coastline.

We know the Andals had ships. We know they invaded the South, in exactly that way, quite successfully.

We know they wanted to invade the North and repeatedly tried.

We know ships certainly can land on the Northern coast, because that's exactly what Asha does.

We know the Andals had steel weapons and the First Men did not, which certainly would have helped them succeed in any such invasion.

We never hear of any fleet of ships in the North that might have served as some sort of defense, except the one burned by Brandon the Burner.

My flimsy, BS, makes-no-sense explanation is that for six thousand years, the Andals were always defeated by horrible storms the CotF magically sent at invading fleets in retaliation for what happened in the South.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I find it implausible the North could have stood off Andal invasions for six thousand years at Moat Cailin, given the North's endless coastline.

We know the Andals had ships. We know they invaded the South, in exactly that way, quite successfully.

We know they wanted to invade the North and repeatedly tried.

We know ships certainly can land on the Northern coast, because that's exactly what Asha does.

We know the Andals had steel weapons and the First Men did not, which certainly would have helped them succeed in any such invasion.

My flimsy, BS, makes-no-sense explanation is that for six thousand years, the Andals were always defeated by horrible storms the CotF magically sent at invading fleets in retaliation for what happened in the South.

That could be explained largely as a matter of logistics. The South was much more heavily populated, with better roads, land that is more easily cultivated, and much wealthier etc.. An army that landed in the South could quickly seize the means to keep itself supplied and in the field. Land in the north, and you're probably not going to have a decent port, there are fewer roads to facilitate movement, so you're likely going to be stuck on some rocky shore and have to slog your way inland over a poor land, with supplies always being a problem. And, there was no great wealth in the North, so the risk of an unsuccesful and potentially disasterous landing (if things go badly, retreat would be a nightmare) doesn't seem to have much of an offsetting benefit.

But once you've taken the south, the risks of attacking north are greatly reduced because you have the Kingsroad and all the wealth of the South to support your army, and an easy route of retreat if things go wrong. But if you can't take Moat Cailen, you're stuck.

[JonathanTheBold]

Q: How does Benjen get the visit Winterfell when the King is there, even though he is no longer a Stark?

A: He makes his own rules

Wrong members of the nights watch from prominate house (particularly in the north) are allowed to visit their family to secure supplies and men

[RumHam]

The Crown Prince being left with anything less than 300 guards? Unthinkable.

I don't think Winterfell's guard even numbers three-hundred.

Q: "The castle (Harrenhal) is so large it requires an army to hold it" according to Ser Aenys Frey in ACOK. Was he mistaken?

A: Well, not mistaken, but perhaps overstating the case. Still, the castle walls were extensive enough to require a much larger garrison than most actual medieval castles did in the real world sieges.

Q: That one is from me personally (it is a bit of burning issue for me because it debunked my favourite theory ;)), but - was Tywin really obligingly marching into Robb's trap when Edmure stopped him at the Red Fork? Did he really count on Lorch and Hoat with their IIRC 300 men holding Harrenhal and the northern prisoners in his absence?

A: Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

So if three-hundred is enough to hold Harrenhal, Winterfell shouldn't require more than a hundred.

[Aderyn the Sly]

So Illyrio sends Tyrion to JonCon and Aegon, and Aegon shows no hatred or resentment for the man whose father ordered the deaths of himself (as a baby) his sister and his mother? And whose brother killed his grandfather and their king when he was a member of his Kingsguard?

[Lonin]

There's something missing in the whole Tyrion/Littlefinger plotline.

I haven't read all the books for a while now, but I'm convinced that Tyrion figures out that Littlefinger is the one that lied to Catelyn about the dagger, thus framing Tyrion. And I'm pretty sure that he figures this out fairly early on, likely during his conversations with Catelyn in the Vale.

Yet he seems to forget all about this little bit of crucial information once he gets to King's Landing.

Question: What would happen to Tyrion - the son of a Great Lord - if he walked up to Littlefinger - a low birth Treasurer - and just stabbed him in the chest?

I reckon pretty much nothing. Maybe a scolding from his father. That's it.

And yet, Tyrion does NOTHING with the knowledge that Littlefinger tried to have him falsely imprisoned and potentially killed?

It always struck me as a fact conveniently ignored because the plot needed it to go away.

:agree:

Also, when Tywin sends Tyrion to K/L, Tywin mentions the "bad decisions" being made, and maybe some members of the Little Council can not be trusted. I always found it amazing that Tyrion didn't just have Littlefinger killed. It's almost like Littlefingers story arc got changed.

GRRM is good at deconstructions.... but he does seem to like the super intelligent behind-the-scenes manipulator that out maneuvers other characters, without any repercussions.

[dotheknifefight]

when tyrion came up on the lannister camp and went to see tywin, it was obvious tywin would not care WHY catelyn captured him and sent him to trial. he doesn't ask. if tyrion would have told him it was because littlefinger lied to her about the dagger the catspaw used to try and kill bran in winterfell, i'm sure tywin wouldn't have been surprised. nor really care. tywin seems almost disappointed tyrion didn't really die.

also, the fall of winterfell is poor judgement on the castellan's part. a lightly garrisoned winterfell could easily have been taken by a crew of 25 or so ironborn (emphasis on ironborn) led by a guy with intimate knowledge of the castle who lived there and has the trust of every person inside. especially when attacked during the black of night by scaling the walls and then opening the gate.

whereas the brothers of the nights watch do not take sides in what happens with the realm, there are still many reasons why the lord commander of the nights watch would want to treat with the king at winterfell. especially since the king would not have gone far enough north to see HIM. there are many times in westerosi history where kings went to the wall... what other chance would benjen have had?

[juanml82]

That could be explained largely as a matter of logistics. The South was much more heavily populated, with better roads, land that is more easily cultivated, and much wealthier etc.. An army that landed in the South could quickly seize the means to keep itself supplied and in the field. Land in the north, and you're probably not going to have a decent port, there are fewer roads to facilitate movement, so you're likely going to be stuck on some rocky shore and have to slog your way inland over a poor land, with supplies always being a problem. And, there was no great wealth in the North, so the risk of an unsuccesful and potentially disasterous landing (if things go badly, retreat would be a nightmare) doesn't seem to have much of an offsetting benefit.

But once you've taken the south, the risks of attacking north are greatly reduced because you have the Kingsroad and all the wealth of the South to support your army, and an easy route of retreat if things go wrong. But if you can't take Moat Cailen, you're stuck.

The conquest might have been slow enough for the North to catch up, the North might have had a fleet before Brandon the burner, the Andals might have waited until the Mudd Kings were defeated.

The Vale (Andals) and the North are known to have fought plenty of wars

[RumHam]

So Illyrio sends Tyrion to JonCon and Aegon, and Aegon shows no hatred or resentment for the man whose father ordered the deaths of himself (as a baby) his sister and his mother? And whose brother killed his grandfather and their king when he was a member of his Kingsguard?

Well he did kill his father so that might wash that part clean.

[Mark Antony]

So Illyrio sends Tyrion to JonCon and Aegon, and Aegon shows no hatred or resentment for the man whose father ordered the deaths of himself (as a baby) his sister and his mother? And whose brother killed his grandfather and their king when he was a member of his Kingsguard?

Hopefully Dany isn't so quick to forgive.

[dotheknifefight]

So Illyrio sends Tyrion to JonCon and Aegon, and Aegon shows no hatred or resentment for the man whose father ordered the deaths of himself (as a baby) his sister and his mother? And whose brother killed his grandfather and their king when he was a member of his Kingsguard?

tyrion killed the man who ordered his death (supposing he's rhaegar's aegon) and his sister and mother. tyrion also makes it known he doesn't like his brother and sister. joncon didn't trust tyrion on the boat at all.