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yolkboy

S+B=M: Mel - The Red Star Bleeding / Melony Seastar (part 2 has been added on pg.9)

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Btw, does this mean Melisandre herself has king's blood?

yes it does. and look at this quote...

"She’ll still be for the fire, her and her king’s blood. There’s power in king’s blood, the red woman used to say."

This can be read two ways. Her and her King's blood. ;)

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yes it does. and look at this quote...

This can be read two ways. Her and her King's blood. ;)

That's interesting. Is it likely that she'll sacrifice herself in some way? I myself don't think so, she'd first have to learn about her parentage and blood, and even if that came to pass I doubt she'd accept it (I mean if she knows what role Bloodraven is playing, she wouldn't mind being part of such a fire-centric family.)

Also, how might the reveal of Mel's parentage factor into the outcome? Looking at the current state of the Wall, I doubt it would change much. I don't think Mel will even live to learn about it, though the readers might discover it through Bloodraven, in Bran's chapters.

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yolkboy



Just wanted to tell you how much I have enjoyed this thread. I am convinced you are on to who Melisandre really is a Targ dragon via being an offspring of BR. Plus I have loved the ruby Targ/Lannister symbols. Really well done and so much work. Thank you.



A few questions that I am hoping you might consider in regard to Melisandre now being a dragon.



Just a thought, is it at all possible that Mance R. is also associated in some way with BR? he wears a raven helmet and I have wondered over the whole ruby connection he has had with Melisandre, the fact that she did not burn him. Is it possible that BR is also a relative to Mance? I am almost afraid to consider that as how many secret Targ bastards do we want in one series. Now, not only is BR actually using Melsiandre but he is also using Mance as well ? We do not know why BR left the NW ...just consider if he actually had a child with a free woman beyond the wall and Mance is the result?



Could all be crackpot but now we have Mel with her ruby on her throat and she is being used by BR I believe and Mance now being a thrall in someway to Melisandre by the ruby on his wrist. So is BR actually the puppet Master pulling all the strings? Melisandre, Mance, and Jon?



What Mance says about the ruby.


In the black iron fetter about his wrist, the ruby seemed to pulse. He tapped it with the edge of his blade. The steel made a faint clink against the stone. " I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even through the iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth. Every day I think how easy it would be to pry it out, and everyday I don't."



Jon thinks something very similar to what Mance states regarding Mel and her ruby.



When Melisandre appears to him as Ygritte. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister.



Sorry its a bit off topic but I am hoping you will go further now with the Melisandre being a dragon to what this means in the story.

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Also, how might the reveal of Mel's parentage factor into the outcome? Looking at the current state of the Wall, I doubt it would change much. I don't think Mel will even live to learn about it, though the readers might discover it through Bloodraven, in Bran's chapters.

I think Mels and Bloodraven will meet in the future so if Bloodraven knows, I think he'll tell Mels.

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To be honest,I think you've tainted a perfectly good theory with this Sapphire and Ruby code stuff.



I think it's nonsense,along with the Corn Code,in that neither informs us of something new.They inform us on what we already know.


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That's interesting. Is it likely that she'll sacrifice herself in some way? I myself don't think so, she'd first have to learn about her parentage and blood, and even if that came to pass I doubt she'd accept it (I mean if she knows what role Bloodraven is playing, she wouldn't mind being part of such a fire-centric family.)

Also, how might the reveal of Mel's parentage factor into the outcome? Looking at the current state of the Wall, I doubt it would change much. I don't think Mel will even live to learn about it, though the readers might discover it through Bloodraven, in Bran's chapters.

These will be answered very shortly in the new piece I'll post very soon. Both of these questions are covered.

snip

I think if Mance was related to Bloodraven, there would be lots of evidence. It would take more than an item of clothing etc, but I must admit I havent looked at Mance much so I can't comment further. Regarding those two passages, that's very smart that you notice a link, and I'll think about it. I noticed Mance's ruby is described as a red star when he wears it, I don't know if that had any meaning.

To be honest,I think you've tainted a perfectly good theory with this Sapphire and Ruby code stuff.

I think it's nonsense,along with the Corn Code,in that neither informs us of something new.They inform us on what we already know.

I think the corn code is non-sense, doesnt mean there's no secret symbolism. When Arbor Gold is mentioned, you know there's a lie. Sapphires come up, you know there's a secret relevant to the scene. Rubies are more complicated but a very strong pattern. I don't know why they would have to inform us of anything more than they already do. It tells us that Shiera has a big secret, and that's why Grrm makes her necklace so prominent. Did you already know Shiera likely had a secret? The sapphire pattern could have told you before this thread came about. And as for tainting the OP, that's your opinion but it stands independently and as such the only thing that can taint it is counter-evidence or fatal flaws in it's argument. The inclusion of the sapphire code in the OP, with regards to Shiera - take it or leave it - some people don't like 'codes', and i wont argue further here, but the pattern is proven in my opinion. I really don't want to get further into the whole are codes real or not debate here, because it will soon get off topic.

I love you for this!

:wub:

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PART 2: How the Red Star Bleeds

So far I've argued that Mel is the 'red star bleeding', and that the red-woman is the daughter of Shiera Seastar and Bloodraven. The theory would make Mel a red Seastar. Now I'll explore how she might bleed with Azor Ahai's rebirth imminent, remembering that she bled spontaneously in her POV. The reason why Mel's blood could be so 'special' will also be examined.

Weirwoods are frequently personified throughout the text, by use of metaphors and by the children of the forest carving faces & eyes into them, which weep red sap. In the following quote, Ghost is compared to a weirwood...

Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree

Jon's insinuating that the colour of the trees corresponds to them being part of the fabric of man & beast. Although, there could be a further level to the frequent personification. Weirwoods have a colour scheme - red & white - red eyes/mouth, a "head of dark red leaves" & white 'skin'. This is reminiscent of Melisandre, essentially an albino with dark red hair. Some of the descriptions used are very similar, so perhaps there is a purposeful link, eg. (skin) "smooth and white, pale" / "smooth trunks were bone white". The leaves are described as "bloodred". This word is used only three times; weirwoods, Mel and the red star - connected by an unusual descriptive.
.
Jon thinks Ghost looks "like a heart tree", so with her smooth skin and dark red hair, Mel must look considerably more alike. They also share certain themes - I'll post in-thread. So if there's parallels that might be purposeful, what clue could it give us?
If Mel has similarities with weirwoods, there's one thing they do that she yet hasn't. They cry tears of sap - likened to blood. They weep blood.

Bleeding.
Mel's blood might be an active, essential ingredient for AA's rebirth. When she bleeds in aDwD, it's 'down her thigh', corrupt black smoking blood from a place of terrible magic and shadowbabies. Somehow it doesn't seem fitting for the heralding of Azor Ahai's second coming. There could be another way the red star bleeds. If we're looking for a way - given there seems to be a weirwood connection - crying blood is a candidate. So, seeing if Mel & 'weeping blood' are linked in the text is the next step...

"Nine crows...I have seen their pale dead faces in my flames. Empty sockets, weeping blood," ...and her red eyes shone.
"She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood."

This is Mel thinking she's seeing the eyes of nine rangers here, a vision she has "many times". Attention is brought to her eyes shining, as she sees blood weep from nine pale faces. Also, it might not be rangers she's seeing in her flames. Given Mel's interpretations are often wrong, it might be the nine sets of eyes from the weirwood grove close to the Wall...

"The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby."

Notice the Mel-associated ruby simile for the crusted sap around the eyes - dried ruby tears. More than anyone else Mel is her ruby. If Grrm sometimes wants to link Mel to weeping blood indirectly, he might use rubies as a 'flag' to remind us of her, like we see with Jon and blue roses.

"Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man’s throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell."

We then have Qorin Halfhand's bloody 'red tears'. Again, a Mel indicative ruby simile is used.

The queen wore a high-collared black silk gown, with a hundred dark red rubies sewn into her bodice, covering her from neck to bosom. They were cut in the shape of teardrops, as if the queen were weeping blood.

Cersei's dress. Weeping blood and rubies, yet again. Either by a mention of her eyes or representation by rubies, there's a strong connection between weeping blood & Mel.

If Mel is the red star bleeding & we're considering tears of blood, it's interesting that the only human feature ever to be described as red star/s - are Mel's eyes (and what do red stars do?). This might explain the switch from singular 'star' to plural in the varying prophesies. The red star bleeding = Mel, the red stars bleeding = her eyes. We see "red stars" on a sword pommel, that happen to be described as "ruby eyes". So, with all the links between Mel and weeping blood - often via rubies - the red star's eyes could cry red tears, like the weirwoods she resembles.

It's worth noting - the only time Mel is described as "weeping" in the books - is in the same paragraph as when she spontaneously bleeds. These two things were put side by side in the text for a reason - Mel weeping blood is possible.

Red Blood
One problem with this idea is that the blood we saw from Mel's womb was black - the above links Mel to red tears. Again, Mel's association with weirwoods points to a clue...

"The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath... nine faces stared inward. The dried sap...was red and hard as ruby."

Here we see weirwood leaves - bloodred and healthy on top, black with rot beneath. This is linked to Mel not just through the weirwood or the ruby, but through the word 'bloodred'. 'Bloodred' is in the text only once more, again as a device to connect Mel to something indirectly (the red star). It's the first colour used to describe her, and in the context of discussing the red star bleeding, bloodred is already a curious term.The leaves are further linked to Mel via 'black rot', and her memorable line to Davos about the onion, which shared the same theme of semi-decay...

I would say my parts are mixed m’lady. Good and bad.”...
“If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion."

Perhaps the insinuation is that Mel is like the fallen weirwood leaves, and the onion she talks against - half corrupted. If she's black with dark magic rot beneath, but bloodred on top, like the leaves, the red star could bleed healthy red tears of King's blood - to wake the dragon. The fact that Mel seems to repeatedly be seeing visions of the nine sets of bleeding eyes from the weirwood grove where Jon took his vows, might be a clue as to the possible location of this event. Which also happens to be where the half rotten-half healthy leaves were seen.

Grrm using representations by weirwoods, rubies and standout words to give us clues about Mel's secrets, is again reminiscent of methods used for Jon's - meaning what's hidden away is likely very important. Speaking of Jon and Mel, we have this quote from Lyannas statue...

"She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood", blue roses and weeping blood, side by side. Azor Ahai's rebirth? (credit J.Stargaryen)

S+B=M

If Shiera+Bloodraven=Mel, she has King's blood, Valyrian, Andal & Essosi blood, blood of the first men / children o-t-f and blood touched by R'hllor. Could her blood perhaps be symbolic, significant, or even magical? The red star's blood might be an active part in Azor Ahai's rebirth, rather than something merely coinciding, it takes King's blood to wake the dragon. If she needs a cue to cry her blood, she might find herself surrounded by a circle of weirwood eyes, showing her the way.

Bran might have a role in this, if he got upset at something like seeing Jon's body - "if I cry, will the tree begin to weep?", he wonders whilst looking out from a weirwood.

Bloodraven could show up in a raven and squawk "blood", as he does when she is mentioned, or even "Melony", remembering what happened in her POV. With Bran weeping into the weirwoods, these could be the triggers that make the red star bleed.

One final thought. If Mel crying blood to rebirth Azor Ahai is the most important event in the planet's history - could the anchient prophetic wise men of the children otf have foreseen this? Did they initially start carving bleeding eyes into the red and white trees to 'keep watch', or were they trying to make them look like someone from a critical moment envisioned with greensight, perhaps in religious ceremony? Does Mel resemble weirwoods, or is it the other way around?


Thanks! ;) The Dornishman's Wife, Lady Gwyn, Dr. Pepper & the Small Questions posse.

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AGoT, Eddard XIII:


He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

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She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

Oh wow JS what a catch! Blue roses and weeping blood right next to each other, geez. I did pdf searches for crying blood, weeping blood etc, but i forgot about the wept. That's excellent work, I would never have seen that, great contribution.

Ive put that in the post and given you a 'lil nod JS.

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This is great yolkboy! I'm convinced, especially with the parallel you've drawn between Mel-rubies-tears and the well known device of blue winter roses and Jon Snow. I'm also mightily impressed with the nine crows, nine weirwood trees catch. All told, this is an impressive collection of connections between Mel and tears of blood.


Having said that, I'm now a bit nervous on Mel's behalf. :uhoh:


The trope of bloody tears has a couple of meanings, one of which is purely evil/negative. The second (which I think the more likely to apply here) usually symbolizes the death of a character (often a tragic "villain") and is meant to add a layer of tragedy. Often the character doing the crying is incapable (emotionally?) of crying "normal" tears. Tvtropes.org notes that in the Nibelungenlied, the heroine Kriemhild weeps tears of blood at Siegfried's death before going on to take her bloody revenge. If you know anything about Siegfried, you may recall he was rendered invincible by bathing in dragon's blood, except for a small spot (reminiscent of Achilles' heel) that Kriemhild was tricked into revealing to Hagen, who slew him shamefully with a javelin (kind of like a dagger in the back...) Given GRRM's penchant for jumbling up classical homages like a topological salad, it seems to me there's a lot to work with there. Unfortunately most of it points to a tragic end for Mel. :crying:


I could be reading waaay to much into this of course, none of which takes anything away from the great work you've done ;)


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Crying tears of blood is also a sign of the stigmata.

Yeah, I personally disregarded that because I didn't think there was a ton of Christian imagery involved.

Well, except for the slain and expected to be resurrected leader and the promise of the messianic hero who will come again... Come to think of it, we probably shouldn't forget that GRRM was raised Catholic and no doubt has a lot of that imagery embedded in his subconscious. :stunned:

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Yeah, I personally disregarded that because I didn't think there was a ton of Christian imagery involved.

Well, except for the slain and expected to be resurrected leader and the promise of the messianic hero who will come again... Come to think of it, we probably shouldn't forget that GRRM was raised Catholic and no doubt has a lot of that imagery embedded in his subconscious. :stunned:

Crown of roses/crown of thorns.

ETA;

AGoT, Eddard XV:

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

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snip

That's such an interesting post to me Lady Gwyn. I had absolutely no idea about this history or mythology of weeping blood. I made the connection via the weirwoods after wondering 'what's the 'coolest' way to have a character bleed, the most striking?'. I didnt know there was a trope or anything like that, and I might have to read further, because it seems really interesting. Regarding Siegfried (again your historical and mythology knowledge impresses), you mentioned an invincibility by bathing in dragons blood. Well Mel is keeping young somehow, and Shiera was said to bath in blood (maybe virgins blood) to magically retain her good looks.

What you say about this being an ominous sign for Mel, is interesting because (albeit without the historical/trope knowledge), I was just thinking the same thing.

The 9 weirwoods/9 rangers catch is one I havent seen elsewhere, and it's kind of a shame most forumers wont see that, buried within this thread, as I think it's a huge clue for the AA rebirth location. There's a reason why Grrm is slyly winking at that weirwood grove, there's obviously something important to Mel going on there, as she sees that vision "many times".

Great contribution, LG. :thumbsup:

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Yeah, I personally disregarded that because I didn't think there was a ton of Christian imagery involved.

Well, except for the slain and expected to be resurrected leader and the promise of the messianic hero who will come again... Come to think of it, we probably shouldn't forget that GRRM was raised Catholic and no doubt has a lot of that imagery embedded in his subconscious. :stunned:

Very true about his upbringing.

"Stigmata" is also primarily a Catholic phenomenon associated with the holy wounds of Jesus, though we see "tears of blood' in other cultural writings as well.

And, they are almost entirely women, (i.e, Mel, the imagery of Lyanna with the crown of thorns and weeping blood, etc.).

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Another thing I find interesting, a small matter, but something that jumped out at me is that we get two entirely different origin stories for dragons.


We of course have the one we are familiar with in terms of the fiery imagery of Valaryia, but the Dothraki believe the dragons came from the moon, an environment usually associated with the darkness and cold.



I still can't help but feel that Jon will have his own counter of ice to fire as well as being the balance, and that may not bode well for Mel.


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Another thing I find interesting, a small matter, but something that jumped out at me is that we get two entirely different origin stories for dragons.

We of course have the one we are familiar with in terms of the fiery imagery of Valaryia, but the Dothraki believe the dragons came from the moon, an environment usually associated with the darkness and cold.

I still can't help but feel that Jon will have his own counter of ice to fire as well as being the balance, and that may not bode well for Mel.

It was actually a trader from Qarth that told Doreah that dragons came from the moon, but yeah. Same point. :)

AGoT, Daenerys III:

“A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon,” blond Doreah said as

she warmed a towel over the fire. Jhiqui and Irri were of an age with Dany, Dothraki girls taken as slaves when Drogo destroyed their father’s khalasar. Doreah was older, almost twenty. Magister Illyrio had found her in a pleasure house in Lys.

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. “The moon?”

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.” The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. “You are foolish strawhead slave,” Irri said. “Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.”

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