Conversation with a Dying Man: the exact wording of Varys and Kevan's talk

[Valyrianesque]

'If Aegon is fake, then Varys has told no lie. Additionally, Varys notoriously uses "technical truths" and double speak, playing with the listener's expectations of referents. Look at Varys' exchange with Ned about Jon Arryn's poisoner: “There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King’s Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world.” Varys lets Ned believe he's talking about Hugh the squire, when in fact Varys is revealing the true poisoner as LF, another "boy" who "owed Jon for all he was."'

Sorry to reignite this, especially with my first post. However, I have been re-reading Game of Thrones and came upon the passage to which butterbumps! (the conversation between Varys and Ned about Jon Arryn's poisoner). Although Varys statement which has been referred to is undeniably ambiguous, Varys immediately goes on to say: "He must have cut a gallant figure in the tourney, him in his bright new armour, with those crescent moons on his cloak." It is only after Varys has said this that Ned identifies the person to whom Varys is referring as Ser Hugh. I therefore don't think that this conversation is evidence of Varys not 'technically' lying in the way that you have described.

Varys wants Kevan to think that the Aegon he is referring to is the real Aegon. Varys connects the 2 figures by responding to Kevan's assertion that Aegon is "dead". Yes he may not have lied in the technical sense but he is being false. I do agree with butterbumps! that the passage certainly isn't solid evidence that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen, however to say that Varys is 'not lying' in the passage just muddies the water a bit. Whether or not Varys is 'lying', he wants Kevan (and others who may be listening) to believe that the real Aegon has landed. However, just because Varys wants others to believe it doesn't make it true. In fact, Varys is potentially trying to strengthen Aegon's identity by apparently revealing it in 'secret' to a dying man who won't be able to tell anyone. Anyone who may be listening would presume that Varys wouldn't know that they were there and would presume that Varys would have no reason to lie.

[Good Guy Garlan]

There was a crackpot on Reddit about Varys' real Blackfyresque name being Aegon.

So when he said "Aegon is here" he wasn't lying, just referring to himself.

Like I said, crackpot

* shrugs *

[The Mother of The Others]

It doesn't speak to the authenticity of Aegon either way. Doesn't proove real or fake. Leaves it for another day.

That exchange with Kevan is about how "My deal is about to kick your deal in the teeth."

"No, he's dead" is like Kevan saying "Nah, my deal can't be torn down by some spectre with a name from the past; that name's no good to you anyway. It won't get the job done."

And then Varys: "No. He is here....." drags on explaining how Aegon is a good name for me to use against you. A worthy name. It's about Aegon's worthiness as a threat and his qualifications to be more than just a famous name. In a nutshell, the threat to your regime is real, Kevvy, because we've taken the time to do this right. There's a better king on the field now than any from the war of 5.

And it really doesn't matter if he's real of fake. Until someone makes it matter (cue Petyr). If nobody ever called his pedigree into doubt, Aegon would be an excellent king, an Aegon in truth. He's a better king than Varys deserves in fact, and this may spell trouble for Varys.

[Eat My Steel]

If Aegon is fake, then Varys has told no lie. Additionally, Varys notoriously uses "technical truths" and double speak, playing with the listener's expectations of referents. Look at Varys' exchange with Ned about Jon Arryn's poisoner: “There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King’s Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world.” Varys lets Ned believe he's talking about Hugh the squire, when in fact Varys is revealing the true poisoner as LF, another "boy" who "owed Jon for all he was."

I agree that Varys' words by no means point to Aegon being real or fake, as well as the rest of the analysis here. However, in this section you point to Varys telling Ned about a boy who owed all he had to Jon Arryn and I fail to see how Littlefinger fits that description. Did Jon put LF on the High Council? I interpreted this section as meaning that Hugh poisoned Jon as directed (and bribed) by Lysa at LF's request. LF didn't get where he was in King's Landing solely because of Jon Arryn, so that one offshoot of the theory doesn't make sense (although that one little point does not negate the overall theory, which is sound).

[Justin Amey]

You know I had made topic discussion being real and I was giving alot of flack for over complicating my theory giving the article of " Occam's Razor" meaning in short "the least complicated theory is usually the correct one. I don't know how ya'll could make such a vague statement so out there. Go check my page so you you can how i debunked the Blackfyre theory

[Dr. Pepper]

You know I had made topic discussion being real and I was giving alot of flack for over complicating my theory giving the article of " Occam's Razor" meaning in short "the least complicated theory is usually the correct one. I don't know how ya'll could make such a vague statement so out there. Go check my page so you you can how i debunked the Blackfyre theory

What specific "vague statement" are you talking about? This isn't a thread where we discussed whether or not Aegon was real. We simply examined the exact wording of Varys' monologue. Here's a link to the OP so that you can read it.

[Rhaenys' kitten]

Varys could have had his villain speech not for Kevan's benefit, but for the benefit of the ravens.

[Brian Boru Brightflame]

where are Aegon the conquerors bones buried?

[Brian Boru Brightflame]

could varys be Egg? how old would egg be now? younger than aemon obv but how much so?

[Rhaenys' kitten]

could varys be Egg? how old would egg be now? younger than aemon obv but how much so?

Egg would be older than Walder Frey.

[RumHam]

where are Aegon the conquerors bones buried?

I'm not totally sure why you asked this here, but he was cremated. It's the Targaryen tradition. Even Robert respected it enough to allow Rhaegar to be cremated.

[In A Coat of Gold]

He's real, and you guys are just going to have to deal with it.

[Lharys]

Most of the (F)Aegon theory plays more with probability than actual evidence. It is possible (yet improbable) that they found a replacement baby with Targaryen-esque features to swap with the real Aegon. I think it could go either way honestly. Varys is careful, we know that.

Is he lying? No not technically as was pointed out, regardless of whether the Aegon in Westeros is real or fake. He said nothing, IMO, that would indicate, either way, the true origins of the boy with JonCon.

[Eat My Steel]

Varys could have had his villain speech not for Kevan's benefit, but for the benefit of the ravens.

Are we sure Varys truly IS a villain? He seems to be one of the few who care about the smallfolk as the lords play their game of thrones...

[Rhaenys' kitten]

Are we sure Varys truly IS a villain? He seems to be one of the few who care about the smallfolk as the lords play their game of thrones...

I meant it in the general sense of, it's a trope in fiction that the villain explains why s/he is killing their victim. It's the villain speech.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilGloating

[The Second To Last Dragon]

wow, winds needs to come out soon.

this is just sad.

[The Second To Last Dragon]

could varys be Egg? how old would egg be now? younger than aemon obv but how much so?

everyone with a shaved head is obviously a valid candidate to be an unEgg

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree that Varys' words by no means point to Aegon being real or fake, as well as the rest of the analysis here. However, in this section you point to Varys telling Ned about a boy who owed all he had to Jon Arryn and I fail to see how Littlefinger fits that description. Did Jon put LF on the High Council? I interpreted this section as meaning that Hugh poisoned Jon as directed (and bribed) by Lysa at LF's request. LF didn't get where he was in King's Landing solely because of Jon Arryn, so that one offshoot of the theory doesn't make sense (although that one little point does not negate the overall theory, which is sound).

I disagree. Here is part of the description of LF in the wiki:

Petyr maintained a relationship with Lysa even after her marriage to Lord Jon Arryn. Lysa convinced her husband to give Petyr control of customs at Gulltown, where he increased incomes tenfold. His skill with finances resulted in a series of appointments leading to his being named Master of Coin in King's Landing under King Robert Baratheon.^[7] There his influence furnished him with many allies and contacts, including the City Watch. He also bought numerous brothels in the city.

Based on this description, I think it is fair to state that LF owed everything to JA. I think it is clear that Varys is secretly--in his own mind--referring to LF and not Hugh in his statement to Ned. IIRC, it was actually Lysa and not Hugh who gave JA the poison (because JA was going to send Sweet Robin away from her, I believe, and LF convinced her to give JA poison to keep her son with her). When Varys switches his sentence to the word "he" in talking about the armor at the tourney, in Varys's mind, because Varys never states that this "he" is the same "he" that was being reference in the prior sentence, Varys could maintain in his own mind that he was not really lying.

Bottom line--Varys likes to play these word games. It makes him feel smart--like he is tricking the other person rather than outright lying. Somehow, in Varys's mind, tricking them with "word games" is more valid that straight, normal lying. Of course, there is no real substantive difference. They are both really a way of lying. But the point is that in Varys's mind there is a difference and he loves to engage in the first type of lying because somehow in his mind it is either not lying or is a more valid way of lying. So in that light, the conversation with Kevan comes across as a clear example of Varys using word games to tell a lie which the literal words might be technically true but clearly are meant to mislead the listener (and thus essentially is the same as a lie).

[Eat My Steel]

I meant it in the general sense of, it's a trope in fiction that the villain explains why s/he is killing their victim. It's the villain speech.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilGloating

Right on.

[Eat My Steel]

I disagree. Here is part of the description of LF in the wiki:

Petyr maintained a relationship with Lysa even after her marriage to Lord Jon Arryn. Lysa convinced her husband to give Petyr control of customs at Gulltown, where he increased incomes tenfold. His skill with finances resulted in a series of appointments leading to his being named Master of Coin in King's Landing under King Robert Baratheon.^[7] There his influence furnished him with many allies and contacts, including the City Watch. He also bought numerous brothels in the city.

Based on this description, I think it is fair to state that LF owed everything to JA. I think it is clear that Varys is secretly--in his own mind--referring to LF and not Hugh in his statement to Ned. IIRC, it was actually Lysa and not Hugh who gave JA the poison (because JA was going to send Sweet Robin away from her, I believe, and LF convinced her to give JA poison to keep her son with her). When Varys switches his sentence to the word "he" in talking about the armor at the tourney, in Varys's mind, because Varys never states that this "he" is the same "he" that was being reference in the prior sentence, Varys could maintain in his own mind that he was not really lying.

Bottom line--Varys likes to play these word games. It makes him feel smart--like he is tricking the other person rather than outright lying. Somehow, in Varys's mind, tricking them with "word games" is more valid that straight, normal lying. Of course, there is no real substantive difference. They are both really a way of lying. But the point is that in Varys's mind there is a difference and he loves to engage in the first type of lying because somehow in his mind it is either not lying or is a more valid way of lying. So in that light, the conversation with Kevan comes across as a clear example of Varys using word games to tell a lie which the literal words might be technically true but clearly are meant to mislead the listener (and thus essentially is the same as a lie).

I don't doubt that Varys may have been talking about someone other than Ser Hugh when he made the statement about someone owing all they had to Jon Arryn, but I still don't see how anyone (including Varys) could say that giving Littlefinger a position in Gulltown is akin to JA being owed everything from LF. Much of what LF has gotten he got from others as well as his own sheer cunning. Furthermore, I actually think that Varys himself had much to do with JA's poisoning because in GoT during Varys and Illyrio's conversation beneath the Red Keep Illyrio tells Varys to "work his magic once again" (paraphrase) on this new Hand (Ned), as he did the previous one (JA). This actually implies that Varys manipulated either LF and Lysa (or both) to make sure JA was poisoned somehow. Lysa may very well have paid Ser Hugh to do the poisoning as well. Afterall, who paid for the new armour of Hugh?