"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk."

[Maxpey]

butterbumps! post from a few days ago about Varys' conversation with the dying Kevan has led to some pretty spirited debate.

While I was reading responses, the significance of the line "Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk" struck me for the first time. Assuming this statement was true (a big assumption, I know) was the fact that Varys began training (f)Aegon "before he could walk" a clue as to whether he is real?

IIRC, Aegon was around a year old when he was reportedly murdered by the Mountain during the Sack of KL.

We also know that (f)Aegon was 4-5 years old when JC was introduced to him, and that before then he spent a period of time with Illyrio.

Given that children in today's world start walking as early as 8 months or as late as 17 months, if Varys began training (f)Aegon before he could walk then we can assume that Varys' began his plan when (f)Aegon was between the ages of 8 - 17 months.

Further, given that Rhaegar's son was 12 months old at the time of the sack,we can deduce that Varys began training (f)Aegon at roughly the same age as Rhaegar's son was when he died (+/- 5months).

Now, just to be clear, I am not saying that Varys began training (f)Aegon right around the time that Rhaegar's son was reportedly murdered. Rather, I am saying that Varys began training (f)Aegon at roughly the same age Rhaegar's son was when the Sack occurred (because we don't know exactly how old (f)Aegon is, Varys could have waited at least year before developing his plan and then lied to JC about how old (f)Aegon was when he first met him).

However, Varys statement to Kevan (again, if true) indicates Varys put his plan in action before (f)Aegon could walk. As stated above, we also know that JC was introduced to (f)Aegon when he was 4-5 years old. Given these facts, I think it's reasonable to assume that Varys put his plan together a lot closer to the Sack then people might otherwise have thought. While not saying it is evidence that (f)Aegon is real, IMO it would make it more reasonable to believe.

One final thought. If anyone can find a passage in any of the books that has Rhaegar's son walking right around the time of the Sack, that to me would be concrete evidence that (f)Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, for obvious reasons. I don't have E versions of the books, so I cannot do a search.

Thoughts?

[David Selig]

That's interesting, but it sounds like an exaggeration to me. You can't teach anything useful about ruling to a kid who is so young it's yet to start walking.

[Dr. Pepper]

One would think the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar would have been shaped for rule since before he was born.

[Sansa_Stark]

One would think the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar would have been shaped for rule since before he was born.

For some reason, seeing as how incompetent a lot of the other Targs were, I can't see this as a possibility.

[Bob Sacamano]

One would think the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar would have been shaped for rule since before he was born.

:agree:

[juanml82]

I think it's just an exaggeration and isn't meant to be taken at face value.

[MagnusPrime]

One would think the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar would have been shaped for rule since before he was born.

yeah the statement could mean that the child he is supporting has the proper bloodline to be the king of Westeros. This could even be construed to mean that (f)Aegon may be a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre.

[kiasyd]

Well, "shaped" not necessarily means "trained", and "before he could walk" could mean before birth as well. :dunno:

My point being: Varys distorts and eludes every word he says so it's very difficult to infer...

[Ygrain]

However, Varys statement to Kevan (again, if true) indicates Varys put his plan in action before (f)Aegon could walk. As stated above, we also know that JC was introduced to (f)Aegon when he was 4-5 years old. Given these facts, I think it's reasonable to assume that Varys put his plan together a lot closer to the Sack then people might otherwise have thought. While not saying it is evidence that (f)Aegon is real, IMO it would make it more reasonable to believe.

I'vev actually started to wonder whether Varys really couldn't have prevented the murders of Elia and her children, or if he actually might have let it happen because it fit with his plans. You know, I find it a bit weird that after all those years when Varys had Aerys' ear, he was unable to convince him in that one instance when it mattered so much. Having known Aerys so well, couldn't he have played the king the same way as Cersei played Robert when she wanted him killed in the meelee?

One final thought. If anyone can find a passage in any of the books that has Rhaegar's son walking right around the time of the Sack, that to me would be concrete evidence that (f)Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, for obvious reasons. I don't have E versions of the books, so I cannot do a search.

To my best memory, Aegon is described as a babe in arms or torn from his mother's breast at the time of the Sack. Dunno if this means a thing but given these descriptions, I thought at first that he was much younger as these descriptions would be more fitting for a child at least half a year younger. A typical one year old doesn't spend that much time in the arms or at the breast.

[Lord Bronn of Sunspear]

To my best memory, Aegon is described as a babe in arms or torn from his mother's breast at the time of the Sack. Dunno if this means a thing but given these descriptions, I thought at first that he was much younger as these descriptions would be more fitting for a child at least half a year younger. A typical one year old doesn't spend that much time in the arms or at the breast.

This is how i recall reading it. If the switch took place, it was during infancy. Therefore, "before he could walk".

[ckal]

It could just mean that Varys started laying out the plans to pave the way for Aegon to become king, as any other royal family might do with their young potential or eventual heirs. This could be because:

1) As an eventual backup (when of age) if Rhaegar died during the war or 'rightful claimant to the Iron Throne' if the Targaryens were overthrown

2) As an eventual king to succeed Rhaegar if Rhaegar lived

These seem very logical and from my understanding accurate to the life of historical royalty in the real world. It doesn't mean that Aegon is fake at all, but it also doesn't mean that Aegon didn't actually die and was replaced by a fake Aegon to accomplish the same tasks.

[Maxpey]

One would think the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar would have been shaped for rule since before he was born.

It's clear that Varys does not believe in the divine right of kings, as this passage from bb!'s topic "Conversations with a Dying Man . . ." aptly reveals:

From the rest of Varys' speech, the boy's identity is not even Varys' interest. Varys speaks past the issue of Aegon's identity, and the focus is singularly on his qualities of leadership. Which is a highly unorthodox and unnecessary view in a system where bloodlines is the only required ingredient for claiming kingship. Going by the actual speech that follows, Varys is selling the boy Aegon who has landed as a suitable, responsible ruler, not extolling his virtues as Rhaegar's son or the "true king."

ETA: While Varys obviously believes that a great leader is made, not born, this doesn't necessarily mean that (f)Aegon is not Rhaegar's son. It could easily mean that Varys simply believes that Rhaegar's son would need the right kind of training to make an outstanding king.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Does anyone see a parallel between Varys and Jon?

Lets assume that Varys swqapped out Aegon and replaced him with a fAegon from flea bottom BEFORE the sack and Gregor did his deed.

Jon did the same swap with Gilly's baby and Vals right? To protect the baby from danger he thought was coming each swapped out the baby. ASOIAF seems to have a lot of parallels so could this be one too? Varys could have seen what was coming and saved Aegon like Jon thinks he did.

[Faydra]

Does anyone see a parallel between Varys and Jon?

Lets assume that Varys swqapped out Aegon and replaced him with a fAegon from flea bottom BEFORE the sack and Gregor did his deed.

Jon did the same swap with Gilly's baby and Vals right? To protect the baby from danger he thought was coming each swapped out the baby. ASOIAF seems to have a lot of parallels so could this be one too? Varys could have seen what was coming and saved Aegon like Jon thinks he did.

Too good to be true.

[Ghost's Shadow]

There is the possibility for that, I suppose, though at the moment I'm seeing it more as a something Jon had to do so he'd get faced with a difficult choice regarding infants and he can find a way to forgive Ned should he react badly to the news of his parentage.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

There is the possibility for that, I suppose, though at the moment I'm seeing it more as a something Jon had to do so he'd get faced with a difficult choice regarding infants and he can find a way to forgive Ned should he react badly to the news of his parentage.

Hard to argue the similarities though right?

[The Idiots Lantern]

Personally, I think Varys's speech proves he thinks he's done an amazing job custom building the perfect Prince. That is all it proves. He'd brag just as hard about a fake he'd raised that way. He's finally got a ruler he can believe in and die for, because he made this one himself and he's going to make him king and the whole realm will benefit.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

This topic is actually pretty ridiculous.

I invite you, to go to a toddler group and teach them useful leadership skills and wish you a lot of success with it...

This is simply an exaggeration to get his point across.

[LC Jaime Lannister]

I really don't think GRRM considered people reading it that closely—by that I mean you can't really base the reality of a characters background off something that small.

And "before he could walk" could simply be figurative.

[LC Jaime Lannister]

For some reason, seeing as how incompetent a lot of the other Targs were, I can't see this as a possibility.

Seeing how Rhaegar was probably one of the most competent persons in Westeros, I don't know why you "can't see this as a possibility". You seem too quick to dismiss an idea if you can't simply see it as a "possibility"

Regardless, I just feel "before he could walk" was figurative.