Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Leap,All the kids at the party who did nothing while the house was broken into, shat upon, stolen from, and destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 What you and Leap seem to miss is the total lack of accountability for what they did. Yes, we all accept that teenagers do dumb things, especially in groups. We understand why this destructive break-in party happened -- though it really was more than just a huge party where stuff got broken -- these kids went out of their way to vandalize the house. What truly elevates this incident is that when given an incredibly sweet deal to come fix the damage they caused and thereby avoid the very significant legal consequences of their actions, none of these kids, and none of their parents (with a solitary exception), came forward. And that, to me, speaks of a sickness in our culture.That doesn't even get into the horrible parents whose reaction was to threaten legal action against the aggrieved homeowner who called attention to their own stupid kids' tweets.Are they really excused if they come forward though? It seems to me that he's not given up his legal right to prosecute in the future. If he did still decide to press charges then all they'd be doing is incriminating themselves further. There's a 300 person game of prisoner's dilema here, and I'd hate to be the one guy that gives himself up to take the brunt of the punishment, and be responsible for the full $20,000 worth of damages instead of the $66.66 average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 He was a professional football player. I imagine that over the years he's been struck so many times in the head that he's more or less incapable of deep thoughts. And yes, I understand more than most how it is that divorce sometimes means good people do not good things. But, and this is a big but, on the scale of "bad things" there are bad things and there are "bad things." Someone that breaks into their spouse's residence, cuts phone lines, and deliberately sabotages their kitchen so they can't cook for the kids - all in violation of a restraining order, is generally an asshole. Not a good guy who made a bad decision. But a straight up, vindictive asshole.And, "in terms of karma" the vandalized property was "their" property (presumably), not just his own.I'm not lionizing Holloway here, and that was a fucked up thing to do to his wife.I'm simply hoping karma also pours like a shit-rain down upon the offending teenagers and their sociopath-raising parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 PK,They've already incriminated themselves by posting their "fun" on twitter.Leap,If they didn't try to stop it, yes. They're all, at least, guilty of breaking and entering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 DG,Absolutely. PK,Because it deserves to be maximised. They didn't "[just] have a house party". They broke into someone's home and destroyed it. If one of my children had participated in this party... I can't imagine what I'd be doing.No. Some of them broke into the house, and then advertised a party on social media. it wasn't 300 kids showing up with crowbars to weck the place. I doubt even half of them knew whose house it was or that they weren't supposed to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 And you think they all deserve the same punishment?The one kid who showed up to fix things might not, depending on how much of him being there was him and how much was his parents. The rest? Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Leap,If they didn't try to stop it, yes. They're all, at least, guilty of breaking and entering.So you think people should be criminally liable for failing to prevent others from committing crimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 No. Some of them broke into the house, and then advertised a party on social media. it wasn't 300 kids showing up with crowbars to weck the place. I doubt even half of them knew whose house it was or that they weren't supposed to be there.There is no way that any of those kids are dumb enough to see a house getting absolutely destroyed and not wonder who's house it is, and whether they are on board with this homewrecking plan. No one over the age of 5 is that dumb. So you think people should be criminally liable for failing to prevent others from committing crimes?Every kid that was there was commiting trespassing, and should be held accountable to the law. And as for the vandalism charges, if you're at the party and did nothing, you share part of the blame, absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Scot,TrueMetis,And you call that justice? How is someone who draws all over the walls and breaks things in any way equal to someone who arrives at a party with no knowledge of what's happening, and then is too scared and peer pressured to act on their morals?We don't know anything about the majority of these kids, and some of them are likely going to grow up to be good people. You shouldn't ruin their lives based on the mistakes of one night. They aren't, until they are called to account for their actions and refuse to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Every kid that was there was commiting trespassing, and should be held accountable to the law. And as for the vandalism charges, if you're at the party and did nothing, you share part of the blame, absolutely.I didn't ask whether they should share part of the "blame" - asked Scott whether criminal liability should attach for failing to prevent someone from engaging in a crime. Since in America, it typically does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 PK,They've already incriminated themselves by posting their "fun" on twitter.A tweet or a photo is hardly evidence that they were knowingly tresspassing, or that they participated in the destruction. All it says is that they were there. Showing up with a mop, a bucket and an apology on the other hand implies culpability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Nestor,They weren't just failing to prevent. They were participating in the crime and failed to mitigate their participation by attempting to stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Nestor,They weren't just failing to prevent. They were participating in the crime and failed to mitigate their participation by attempting to stop it.That is obviously not true. You are not engaging in vandalism merely because you are engaging in simple trespass. They are two separate crimes. You know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecryptile Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 A tweet or a photo is hardly evidence that they were knowingly tresspassing, or that they participated in the destruction. All it says is that they were there.And being there is trespassing, and unlawful entry. Both are crimes. Showing up with a mop, a bucket and an apology on the other hand implies culpability.Admitting you were wrong and trying to make up for it implies character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 And being there is trespassing, and unlawful entry. Both are crimes. In many juristricions liability for trespass rests on intent. If they were unaware that they were there illegally then they may or may not be culpable.Admitting you were wrong and trying to make up for it implies character.It really depends on how good your lawer is. Some juries may not see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I am floored to hear y'all defending these kids. Floored. I'm sure, now, that the house was magically open to the elements and the shit and graffiti there before the partiers arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecryptile Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 In many juristricions liability for trespass rests on intent. If they were unaware that they were there illegally then they may or may not be culpable.Good point. But I bet they knew that they weren't supposed to be getting drunk and tearing up someone else's house. They also knew that no adults were there. Trespassing outside the house is very different from going inside someone else's home unlawfully. In my state, if you are just on someone else's land, you generally wouldn't get in trouble the first time. The cops would just tell you not to come back. The second time you would get arrested.As for unlawful entry, the homeowner could probably shoot you in the face and be within his rights.It really depends on how good your lawer is. Some juries may not see it that way.Do they even have jury trials for juveniles who are tried as juveniles? I think it would probably be a bench trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I am floored to hear y'all defending these kids. Floored. I'm sure, now, that the house was magically open to the elements and the shit and graffiti there before the partiers arrived.I'm sorry you're right. They all deserve lengthy jail terms, and life long ostracization from society. At $66.66 damages per head they're clearly beyond redemption. It's a sure sign of the end of society as we know it. Teenagers causing havock.... i've never heard the like of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 As for unlawful entry, the homeowner could probably shoot you in the face and be within his rights.I'm not sure that shooting dead 300 partying teenagers would fly even in the US, but i'm not willing to rule it out either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 PK,So, they just broke into somone's house, spray painted all over the walls, peed and shat in the corners, busted out the windows, and stole his family heirlooms. And then thought it was such great fun the posted photos on Twitter, including one shot of someone stealing the heirloom. Average teenage highjinks why would anyone be upset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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