Robb's Choice of the Second Commander

[Norse_Force]

Hi all, I've been reading threads on here for awhile, but this is my first post. I am giong through my first re-read of AGoT currently. I apoligize if this topic has come up before, but in my time here I haven't seen this topic specifically discussed. So here it goes:

Robb chooses Roose to command the infantry/diversion portion of his forces. On the face this seems like a good choice; Roose has experience (he's fought in both Robert's Rebellion & The Greyjoy Rebellion), he is the lord of one of the bigger Northern castles, and Robb believes him to be cool and cunning. But, Robb has many canidates in his camp that have similiar experiance. Rickard Karstark, the Glover brothers, I believe Lord Hornwood has similiar qualifications.

Robb initially wants Greatjon to lead this faction and Cat is able to talk him out of it. Sidenote, I agree with Cat that Greatjon wasn't the right man for the job, but this is a little off topic (maybe we'll get into that with this post). Anyway, I have a couple of questions here. Of the available choices at the time; Who would you choose to lead the second faction of your Northern Army? Also, who do you think Ned would have given command to? I feel that Ned has an inherient distrust of Roose due to the history between the Boltons and the Starks (note: I have no textual evidience to support this its just a feeling I have). Finally do you believe the Red Wedding would have be avoided if Roose wasn't give command of the infantry portion of the Northern Army?

My choice and I believe Ned's choice to lead the second portion of the Army would be Rickard Karstark. He has the same amount of military experience that Roose does, he is the lord of one of the bigger Northern castle's similar to Bolton, and he has a small amount of Stark blood, which I feel would make him more trustworthy than Bolton.

Sorry for any spelling/grammer errors, I am useless without spellcheck. Anyway what are everyone's thoughts on this?

[Pod The Impaler]

The Blackfish would have been a better choice, but Robb felt he needed him by his side.

Robbett Glover of Lord Mallister might have done well.

do you believe the Red Wedding would have be avoided if Roose wasn't give command of the infantry portion of the Northern Army?

Well, it may yet have happened, but not in the same form.

The Red Wedding was a consequence of the Ironborn attacking the North, which spread defeatism in the ranks of Robb's bannermen. Perhaps secondarily, also caused by Robb marrying Jeyne Poole and Catelyn releasing Jaime Lannister, but having "lost the north" (including Bran and Rickon) is what preciptated all of that. This giant setback would not have changed if Roose was not given that command. The betrayal by Boltons and Freys might still have happened.

Perhaps more northerners might have survived the betrayal.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I believe he chose Roose, because, he is similar to Tywin in ways of thinking. Calculative, careful, smart. Greatjon and many other Northern Lords seem more... "Roar!"

[kissdbyfire]

Regarding Ned's distrust of Roose Bolton, it's not just a feeling of yours... :)

ADwD, Jon:

What if Bolton never had his sister? This wedding could well be just some ruse to lure Stannis into a trap. Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew, but even so he had never trusted him, with his whispery voice and his pale, pale eyes.

[Djinn]

Are Galbart and Robett old enough for Robert's rebellion? I find it odd that none of the four Ryswells went with Robb south. Hellman Tallhart could be a choice.

[Erkan12]

There was not many choice about that. You can't give command some lesser lord, expecting obey other high lords, you should trust them. So there are Greatjon, Rickard and Roose. Greatjon is very good about leading the van, and he become Robb's right hand man. So two possibility Rickard or Roose. Rickard was angry about losing his two son. So he could lost himself and attack Lannisters alone. Roose was good choice until he change his side.

[Norse_Force]

I never even thought of the Blackfish, I agree he probabbly would be the best choice. But, my guess, with his inside knowledge of Riverrun, as you say, Robb felt he needed him with their assult. At this point I don't believe Rickard's sons had died, becasue I believe Jamie killed them at the Whispering Wood. So, if Rickard get appointed commad, he prob takes one of his sons with him, so maybe he doesn't get so overcome with grief.

[the trees have eyes]

Tallhart, Glover, Karstark, Hornwood and Bolton all could have done the job. It's more a case of anyone but Umber as the GreatJon would be too reckless to hold a key defensive position. Bolton seems a cautious and calculating leader and therefore a good choice.

He is a bit odd and makes Robb uncomfortable so leaving him behind might also be a subconscious decision on Robb's part but there is nothing at this stage from either Robb or Catelyn that suggests he needs watching more than any other bannerman. They have all been testing the young wolf to see what sort of leader he is but there is no hint that Bolton is suspect at this stage.

[Chaircat Meow]

None of it would have mattered if Robb's plan had worked as he intended and finished the war. Joff put a stop to that. So Roose was left in permanent command.

Also, it is rather odd of Robb to trade out Umber for a more cautious man, when he told Roose to go through with the Greatjon's plan.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

i agree with the person who said blackfish was the best choice but robb needed someone from the north to command the other part of his northern host. a southerner commanding a northern army probably wouldn't go over too well.

[Ramsay Gimp]

None of it would have mattered if Robb's plan had worked as he intended and finished the war. Joff put a stop to that. So Roose was left in permanent command.

Also, it is rather odd of Robb to trade out Umber for a more cautious man, when he told Roose to go through with the Greatjon's plan.

But Roose still showed a degree of caution within that plan that I don't think the Greatjon would have. He didn't fall for Tywin's trap involving the Left and chose to withdraw instead

EDIT: Welcome to the boards, OP

[Toos]

None of it would have mattered if Robb's plan had worked as he intended and finished the war. Joff put a stop to that. So Roose was left in permanent command.

Also, it is rather odd of Robb to trade out Umber for a more cautious man, when he told Roose to go through with the Greatjon's plan.

None of it would have mattered if Robb's plan had worked as he intended and finished the war. Joff put a stop to that. So Roose was left in permanent command.

Also, it is rather odd of Robb to trade out Umber for a more cautious man, when he told Roose to go through with the Greatjon's plan.

Where in the books was that Robb tell him do Greatjon's plan? From SSM it seems that night march and surprise attack was Roose's idea.

[shearstone]

I think Ned would have chosen one of the Glovers to lead the second host. Didn't Ned request the Glovers to garrison Moat Callin in GoT? He must have trusted them to give them that responsibility when there are other lords closer to the Moat.

[Erkan12]

Where in the books was that Robb tell him do Greatjon's plan? From SSM it seems that night march and surprise attack was Roose's idea.

Yes Greatjon just said they should attack Tywin with all their host. Roose take the decision by own after he leading the other army. Tactically bad move for Roose. As Robb stated, a man like Tywin won't be easily suprised.

Robb hesitated. “The Greatjon thinks we should take the battle to Lord Tywin and surprise him,” he said, “but the Glovers and the Karstarks feel we’d be wiser to go around his army and join up with Uncle Ser Edmure against the Kingslayer.” He ran his fingers through his shaggy mane of auburn hair, looking unhappy. “Though by the time we reach Riverrun ... I’m not certain . . .”

“Be certain,” Catelyn told her son, “or go home and take up that wooden sword again. You cannot afford to seem indecisive in front of men like Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark. Make no mistake, Robb-these are your bannermen, not your friends. You named yourself battle commander. Command.”

Her son looked at her, startled, as if he could not credit what he was hearing. “As you say, Mother.”

“I’ll ask you again. What do you mean to do?”

Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint. One end curled up from being rolled; he weighed it down with his dagger. “Both plans have virtues, but . . . look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin’s host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him . . . by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised.”

“Good,” she said.She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice, as he sat there, puzzling over the map. “Tell me more.”“I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway,” he said, “but once we’re below the Neck, I’d split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins.” He pointed. “When Lord Tywin gets word that we’ve come south, he’ll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun.” Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

Catelyn frowned down at the map. “You’d put a river between the two parts of your army.”

“And between Jaime and Lord Tywin,” he said eagerly. The smile came at last. “There’s no crossing on the Green Fork above the ruby ford, where Robert won his crown. Not until the Twins, all the way up here, and Lord Frey controls that bridge. He’s your father’s bannerman, isn’t that so?”

The Late Lord Frey, Catelyn thought. “He is,” she admitted, “but my father has never trusted him. Nor should you.”

“I won’t,” Robb promised. “What do you think?”

She was impressed despite herself. He looks like a Tully, she thought, yet he’s still his father’s son, and Ned taught him well. “Which force would you command?”

“The horse,” he answered at once. Again like his father; Ned would always take the more dangerous task himself.

“And the other?”

“The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I’d give him the honor.”

It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? “Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known.”

Robb grinned. “Grey Wind ate two of his fingers, and he laughed about it. So you agree, then?”

“Your father is not fearless,” Catelyn pointed out. “He is brave, but that is very different.”

Her son considered that for a moment. “The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell,” he said thoughtfully. “Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don’t want someone fearless, do IT’

“No. You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage.”

“Roose Bolton,” Robb said at once. “That man scares me.”

[Chaircat Meow]

If Bolton really took such a poor risk, and it failed, he'd have been chewed out for it.

The SSM actually suggests it wasn't Bolton's idea, just that he organized himself in such a way that he'd benefit whatever the outcome.

[Barty]

Bolton was a good choice - Robb did not expect the war to last as long as it did. Roose managed to distract Tywin and did all that was asked of him and did not lose too many men. Giving command to any other Northman meant a bigger risk of loosing the Northern foot entirely. Catelyn says it perfectly - when facing a man like Tywin Lannister you need cautious and cunning - and no Northerner is more cunning than Roose.

[Knight Of Winter]

Speaking in retrospective, Roose wasn't a sound choice for commander of Northern infantry. Cunning paired with opportunism and utter lack of loyalty is a poor combination. Still, it's doubtful how much Robb knew of Roose's character when he opted for him.

Roose's job was basically distraction - to make Tywin believe he is facing main contingent of Stark army and loose as few men as possible. Instead, Roose chose night march (tiring his army) and surprise attack as a strategy against Tywin of all people - thus losing more people than necessary and harming Robb's cause.

We had a discussion about Roose's campaign a few months ago (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87306-war-in-the-riverlands-part-two/), so I'll paste relevant part of my post:

I'll admit I'm very suspicious of Bolton's plans here: he orders his troops night march, leaving them tired and sleepless prior to battle. This would not be a problem were he able to catch Tywin by suprise, but realistically what are the odds of that happening? Roose surely must have known of Tywin's battle reputation and was aware he's not the man to be caught off-guard. So why engage him with half-asleep army? Roose's job was simply to keep Tywin busy and make him think he's battling Robb's army, all while preserving most of his army. Because of Bolton's mistakes (intentional or not), Starks probably lost much more men then they should have. While Bolton was probably not planning betrayal yet, he may have deliberately weakened armies of other Northern lords, in order to improve his post-war position. All at the expense of Starks and North, of course.

Other thing I'll note here is Bolton's lack of use of something Sun Tzu calls potential energy. Tywin was unaware of Robb's plans and disdainfully thought of him as green and untested boy who wants to play war. Basically, Tywin expected Robb to make all kinds of beginner's mistakes, so why not use it? Why not deliberately feed Tywin with "knowledge" enemy general is green and unskilled, just to encourage over-arrogance in him? For example, if Roose had not engaged Tywin at all, Tywin would have thought Pup is too scared to play with lions and maybe initiated the attack himself? If Roose simply sent mobile troops to harrass edges of Tywin's army without engaging in full combat, Tywin would have believed Pup wants to fight, but he's too afraid to do so, and, again, maybe do something reckless and stupid. Hell, if Roose deliberatley left large hole on his right flank (or left flank, or centre or anywhere), Tywin would attribute it to Robb's lack of skill, not to potential trap. Instead of using this potential energy, Roose simply ordered his tired men to engage numerically superior and batter rested enemy.

[Toos]

If Bolton really took such a poor risk, and it failed, he'd have been chewed out for it.

The SSM actually suggests it wasn't Bolton's idea, just that he organized himself in such a way that he'd benefit whatever the outcome.

So you don't have textual evidence. It was probably Bolton who send report about battle so he could manipulate facts as he did with Duskendale.

[Chaircat Meow]

So you don't have textual evidence. It was probably Bolton who send report about battle so he could manipulate facts as he did with Duskendale.

If you are looking for an utterly explicit statement no, but then, neither do you. Your position isn't some kind of default.

Bolton sent reports of both Duskendale and reported the Ruby Ford personally, and had to present excuses or take responsibility for what went wrong.

[shearstone]

I wonder if Roose needed to engage Tywin at all. Even just being so close to Tywin's lines should prevent Tywin from linking up with Jaime and as Knight of WInter says, Tywin thought Robb was green so likely wouldn't have qualms about launching the attack rather than waiting for the North to assault. All Roose needed to do was retreat once Tywin got too close. The one day of fighting at the greenfork lost wouldn't give Tywin time to get back west. In fact Tywin was marching up the KIngs road so it's even more likely Tywin meant to attack the North so Roose attacking Tywin instead was even more stupid as Roose would have had time to choose the grund the battle would be fought and perhaps find land that would have negated Tywins advantage with cavalry or slowed TYwin's advance allowing Roose to retreat to the safety of the Twins with no losses.