Issues with Jorah/Dany interaction (book spoilers)

[Tyrion1991]

I was very surprised that all of their interaction between the boat to Astapor and Yunkai was cut. To me it was very good to see two people who like and admire eachother have such a difficult conflict. It felt quite real that Dany doesn't want to hurt Jorah but at the same time knows she doesn't feel the same way. At the same time its easy (IMO) to sympathize with Jorah loving Daenerys because shes awesome and it is amplified by Danys own endearingly positive view of him.

Just a brief list of differences or things they cut

- Jorah does not kiss Dany and profess his love for her on the boat, saying he will marry her and be one of her dragonriders.

- Shes also very happy with the idea of getting the Unsullied and is overjoyed to be feeling like shes doing something. In the show they make her frigid and against the idea from the beginning.

- In the show they intimate that Dany and Jorah are not on good terms by saying "this isn't a day for fighting". This, makes absolutely no sense. Look at the end of season 2, these characters are on good terms. This is something they keep coming back to throughout the show of some unspoken tension or conflict between the two characters which is just confusing. He has not kissed her so there shouldn't be any tension between the two charcters at all.

- Its actually Barristan who is with her to buy the Unsullied. Again and again they put Jorah into Barristans role throughout the series to give him something to do.

-They have a massive argument over the Unsullied in the books. Dany was appalled by Jorah suggesting using them once she saw the training. As with all of their book interactions in ASOS the fact that Jorah kissed Dany is very prominent in Danys thoughts and is clearly part of why she is so angry with him atm. But in the TV show, they have a pretty cordial and polite discussion over the Unsullied despite Dany having seen their training firsthand.

- "Rhaegar fought honorably..." is delivered in a much more poinient and effective manner at the end of the chapter where Jorah/Dany argue. Just as with the kiss scene that concludes Danys first chapter this puts the relationship between these two center-stage, something the show does not roll with.

- Jorah does not argue that Dany should not sell the dragons as in the show. In fact he drags Barristan out under Danys orders and it is only Barristan who is belittled by Dany for going against her in public. Again, they make Jorah do something Barristan did and force this nonsensical conflict between the two.

- Jorah, along with Danys Khalessar are told of the plan to take the Unsullied in the book and take part. In the show, Dany does not tell them and Dany has a moment where she clearly dismisses Jorah for not believing in her and suggesting she has outgrown him. Several points: it is stupid to imply that Dany does not trust Jorah, she ABSOLUTELY trusts Jorah and GRRM never implies that Dany has outgrown Jorah. He is necessary for her plans. She continues to make use of him throughout the series. There is never a moment in the series where she spurns Jorah like this. It also makes absolutely no sense to judge Jorah for not believing her when she did not tell him what her plan was.

- In the negotiations Jorah is more prominent in Danys thoughts about how jealous he is over Mero. It also him and not Barristan that she tells to kill first and he replies "gladly" (though I can forgive that since Barri does nothing in season 3).

- In the novel, Jorah is present when Daario arrives. There is no bathtub scene and Daarios presence is merely incidental. He represents a choice of accepting his help and risking betrayal of her plan to take the Yunkish unawares or to stop him. Immediately the focus switch s to Jorah/Dany once Dany leaves and they have another huge argument. Jorah says she shouldn't trust Daario and he brings up being older and more experienced than her. Dany loses her temper and accuses Jorah of trying to push away any other man so that she will be beholden to him and by saying she should trust only him. Jorah says he has never said that. Dany replies that she loves him as a brother and cares for him deeply but that she does not want him and it will not make her love him anymore if he keeps this up. Its a very good and touching scene between the two characters.

- In the show Dany doesn't even react to Jorah questioning Daarios loyalty and its such a throwaway line as to be easily ignored.

- Jorah commands the battle of yunkai and puts Danys plan into effect in the books. Daario plays a very small role. After having just had that big argument Jorah returns to announce the victory and Dany feels proud for him and "says rise my bear". This is the only time she ever calls him by her own pet name for him to his face. So it looks like the characters are tight again and everything's okay between them. In the show however they want to emphasise Daario. To do this they portray Dany caring more about the fate of the sellsword she just met a few minutes ago and makes it clear she has only been worrying about him; not her constant companion or best friend since the start of the series. Not only does this show Dany as very shallow and insensitive. But, again, its completely the opposite of what happens in the book. Dany/Jorah is the important thing here in that chapter. Not Daario and Dany.

In summary, IMO, season 3 butchered this element of Danys story and their invented material is going completely in the opposite direction. Which is a shame because I really felt these were good scenes between the two characters and why change something that isn't broken.

[Arkash]

I think their relation will be the bulk of season 4...

Dany had a hell lot of things to do in S3...

Whereas in the less crowed Dany arc of S2, they started to work out the tension between her and Jorah.

Now, in S4, apart from taking Meereen and settling herself there, she doesnt have a lot to do and, imo, it would be the perfect thing to do to really focus on the Jorah problem alongside the discovery of Meereen.

[Woman of War]

Dany cannot send Jorah away too early since the character would be unemployed until Tyrion is ready to be taken prisoner by him. So they have to stretch Jorah's common time with Dany to give him something to do.

[protar]

I expect the Dany/Jorah/Daario love triangle will make up a large portion of Dany's storyline in S4, to differentiate between the pure conquest of S3. So I reckon that at the very least Jorah and Dany's kiss will be included in S4.

[PatrickStormborn]

I was very surprised that all of their interaction between the boat to Astapor and Yunkai was cut. To me it was very good to see two people who like and admire eachother have such a difficult conflict. It felt quite real that Dany doesn't want to hurt Jorah but at the same time knows she doesn't feel the same way. At the same time its easy (IMO) to sympathize with Jorah loving Daenerys because shes awesome and it is amplified by Danys own endearingly positive view of him.

<Snip>

:bowdown: Fantastic post.

I think their relationship will become more relevant next season when Dany has less material, but unfortunately it's almost impossible now to recreate the moments they've lost. And I think the kiss will definitely be cut - why would Jorah kiss Dany now that he realises she's infatuated by Daario and not by him?

I'm hopeful they will at least keep intact the argument they had about Daario/trust, but I probably shouldn't expect so much.

[Dragonstoned]

:bowdown: Fantastic post.

I think their relationship will become more relevant next season when Dany has less material, but unfortunately it's almost impossible now to recreate the moments they've lost. And I think the kiss will definitely be cut - why would Jorah kiss Dany now that he realises she's infatuated by Daario and not by him?

I'm hopeful they will at least keep intact the argument they had about Daario/trust, but I probably shouldn't expect so much.

I think Jorah could still kiss her out of desperation as he sees her drifting further away from him. In fact this could be the spark that sees Dany banish him, as with Barristan off the small council there is no-one around who knows that he was informing on her: after she knocks Jorah back, he in a very emotional state slips up and says 'I turned down a pardon for you' or something like that and the truth comes tumbling out (soz if this has already been suggested).

[protar]

And I think the kiss will definitely be cut - why would Jorah kiss Dany now that he realises she's infatuated by Daario and not by him?

Desperation? Or he may still harbour some delusions that he has a chance, eventually culminating in Dany's tirade at him, and later his exile.

[Tyrion1991]

I expect the Dany/Jorah/Daario love triangle will make up a large portion of Dany's storyline in S4, to differentiate between the pure conquest of S3. So I reckon that at the very least Jorah and Dany's kiss will be included in S4.

I can't see how that wouldn't be the show inventing material because Dany/Daario are not an item or sleeping with eachother until ADWD. Its also a completely different context and all of the situations which set off the Dany/Jorah interaction have already passed. How can Dany argue about Jorah not trusting Daario when she didn't object or show any reaction to his objections at the council table? Most of the dialogue simply wouldn't work and the fact that its Jorah getting between two people is totally different to what happens in the book. Which would make him much more in the wrong than is the case in the book. Its fine for him to make a pass on Dany when shes single, its not fine to sabotage her relationship with Daario. This is a case of "don't change what isn't broken.", especially since the shows track record on changes hasn't exactly been stunning thus far.

So I hope they haven't moved things around like that. .

[protar]

I can't see how that wouldn't be the show inventing material because Dany/Daario are not an item or sleeping with eachother until ADWD. Its also a completely different context and all of the situations which set off the Dany/Jorah interaction have already passed. How can Dany argue about Jorah not trusting Daario when she didn't object or show any reaction to his objections at the council table? Most of the dialogue simply wouldn't work and the fact that its Jorah getting between two people is totally different to what happens in the book. Which would make him much more in the wrong than is the case in the book. Its fine for him to make a pass on Dany when shes single, its not fine to sabotage her relationship with Daario. This is a case of "don't change what isn't broken.", especially since the shows track record on changes hasn't exactly been stunning thus far.

So I hope they haven't moved things around like that. .

You can still have a love triangle without people sleeping with one another. Dany gets butterflies over Daario the moment they meet in both the book and the show, so I see no problem with expanding that in S4.

I think you're rather misinterpreting Jorah's character. He does everything (perhaps subconsciously or perhaps not) to get in between Dany and other guys. So yeah, when Dany starts flirting with Daario I can certainly see Jorah deciding to go all in before it's too late.

[Tyrion1991]

Theres only one scene in one of Danys chapters where that is the case, when he questions trusting Daario. Thats not a strong basis for an entire season. I'd also add that Jorah is saying she shouldn't rely on Daario when they've just met. Thats not the same as getting in-between two people who are clearly in a relationship.

Why wouldn't they start sleeping with eachother at this point? They make a few jokes in the book and Dany thinks about it. But in the show they're not only doing that but Dany is getting naked in front of him and they're touching eachother. The impression I get on the show would almost be that they are sleeping with eachother already and its just not being shown. Very different in the books where it feels like a flippant interest from Dany.

Basically there is never a love triangle between those characters. Dany literally just meets Daario for a few seconds and gets her some flowers in a flashback. Then we're into Meereen and exile stuff for Danys last two chapters.

[El Guapo]

If they were sleeping together already they would have shown it. Also, Dany didn't get naked in front of Daario, she was minding her own business taking a bath when he broke into her tent. The reason she got up in front of him was a total power move to show that she wasn't intimidated by him.

[Newstar]

I think Jorah could still kiss her out of desperation as he sees her drifting further away from him.

Mmm, I agree it could play that way.

I'd also add with respect to the "bear" nickname that it wouldn't make much sense in the show as a pet name, as I don't think the Mormont/bear connection has ever been spelled out in the show, not to mention Iain Glen, Jorah's actor, isn't very "bearish": he's lean where Book Jorah is large and fair where Book Jorah is swarthy. On the other hand, the Hound randomly started calling Sansa "Little bird" in Season 2 with no explanation of the nickname (the "pretty little talking bird" dialogue being cut), despite the fact that TV Sansa's actress towers over pretty much everyone except for him, so who knows?

[Tyrion1991]

Mmm, I agree it could play that way.

I'd also add with respect to the "bear" nickname that it wouldn't make much sense in the show as a pet name, as I don't think the Mormont/bear connection has ever been spelled out in the show, not to mention Iain Glen, Jorah's actor, isn't very "bearish": he's lean where Book Jorah is large and fair where Book Jorah is swarthy. On the other hand, the Hound randomly started calling Sansa "Little bird" in Season 2 with no explanation of the nickname (the "pretty little talking bird" dialogue being cut), despite the fact that TV Sansa's actress towers over pretty much everyone except for him, so who knows?

Its mentioned that Longclaw "works as well for a wolf as a bear". Plus he said he was from Bear Island in the first series. So they have technically mentioned it. Also, his armor does have a small bear sigil on the front as well as the targ dragons coiled on the shoulders.

You could say they haven't shown what a Targ flag looks like or that black/red are targ colors either in relation to Dany. It doesn't mean those things won't appear later on or cause viewer confusion about the significance.

Yeah, I actually think making Jorah more attractive and a leaner gentlemanly type actually has a negative effect on the character. I mean, yes, he does act that way towards Dany, but he is a bit of a brute and bastard to everyone else. The shows portrayal undermines the characters masculinity and smoothed out too many of the edges from the character. Its also hard to believe Dany would ever think things like "my Bear is smarter than he looks" or "kiss his big ugly face" in relation to Ian Glein. Its a bit like Brienne, its hard to understand people reacting as extremely as they do on the show to a big woman with a slightly butch jaw; not the ogre Brienne is supposed to be on the show. I'd say she is actually closer to what that Sandsnake is meant to look like.

[El Guapo]

Personally I think having an aged up Dany in the show calling Jorah "her bear" would be kind of silly.

As far as other things we need to see with Dany in season 4:

1. Her sigil. We need to see the black and red 3 headed dragon banner and lots of them.

2. A new wardobe. This I fully expect to see once she settles down in Mereen.

3. Name the damn dragons already.

[Tyrion1991]

Personally I think having an aged up Dany in the show calling Jorah "her bear" would be kind of silly.

As far as other things we need to see with Dany in season 4:

1. Her sigil. We need to see the black and red 3 headed dragon banner and lots of them.

2. A new wardobe. This I fully expect to see once she settles down in Mereen.

3. Name the damn dragons already.

Aw, but its so adorable when she says it.

Not really a spoiler but in the Barristan Winds preview chapter they've apparently finally have a Targ banner. Better late than never I guess...

Shots from season 4 have Dany in her old kit from season 3.

Oh please god name them. That way she won't have to scream "Where are my dragons!".

[Dragonstoned]

TBF Dany holds on off on banging Daario for a long time in ADwD (I am just under halfway through on a re-read and they still haven't got it on) so there's no reason why they would necessarily sleep together next season instead of the one after.

[Dragonstoned]

Personally I think having an aged up Dany in the show calling Jorah "her bear" would be kind of silly.

As far as other things we need to see with Dany in season 4:

1. Her sigil. We need to see the black and red 3 headed dragon banner and lots of them.

2. A new wardobe. This I fully expect to see once she settles down in Mereen.

3. Name the damn dragons already.

Don't think Hubba-Hubba Box Office a.k.a. HBO would pass up the opportunity on her one breast covered one breast naked Meereen dress.

[Tyrion1991]

TBF Dany holds on off on banging Daario for a long time in ADwD (I am just under halfway through on a re-read and they still haven't got it on) so there's no reason why they would necessarily sleep together next season instead of the one after.

You underestimate the power of the quota. :)

Plus, TBH it didn't make much sense that she wasn't already in a relationship with Daario because several months had passed between the books and she was clearly incredibly interested. However GRRM wanted this to coincide with her marriage to Hidzhar and to have Dany opt for this rather than be already in a relationship. I think the show may opt to just make them lovers earlier as there won't be that several month gap and it might stretch believably given that they want to be with eachother.

You're thinking about Qartheen dress BTW. Tokar is different.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Don't think Hubba-Hubba Box Office a.k.a. HBO would pass up the opportunity on her one breast covered one breast naked Meereen dress.

You're thinking of Qarth, which they already 'passed up'.

[Dragonstoned]

Apologies, confusion as XXD recently came to Meereen on my re-read and Dany was wearing that dress obviously. And I had hoped the irony in my post would be picked up on as the idea of a television show featuring girls in breastless dresses is just silly.