Blackfyre and Dark Sister

[Buckthorn]

Why would Jon want a longsword when he already has a bastard sword? It is not as if Dark Sister is better than Longclaw, they are both made of Valyrian steel.

[sarah.jenice]

Blackfyre should be in possession of the last surviving members of House Blackfyre, not necessarily in possession of the Golden Company. There are hints that it may be in one of the boxes Illyrio gave to Duck and Haldon at the very beginning of ADwD. Tyrion noticed that they were too light to contain gold or gems. Blackfyfre was always the best guess people come up with. Dragon eggs, ancient Targaryen armor, or perhaps even Dark Sister are possibilities.

This is what I thought, too. It seemed to me like George had Aegon getting Blackfyre in ADwD but took it out so we wouldn't have even more to use in theories before TWoW. If we knew Illyrio had Blackfyre and gave it to Aegon rather than the GC, that would almost confirm the Serra was a Blackfyre theory because that seems like the only way he'd have the sword.

I think we will see Aegon wielding it soon, and maybe Connington will remember how Aegon showed it to the GC to solidify their allegiance.

I have no idea about Dark Sister, but I love the idea of Arya wielding it because of how much she looks up to Visenya.

[bent branch]

The Blackfyre heir through the female line has the sword since the sword belongs to the Blackfyre family, not the GC. Who that person is is a matter of debate.

I think we won't learn anything about Dark Sister in ASOIAF. The reason is that I think that GRRM may be intending to use the fate of Dark Sister as one of his Dunk and Egg tales. If that is the case, then anything he says in ASOIAF would just be a spoiler.

[Lord Varys]

If Barristan had gotten Blackfyre back during the War of the Ninepenny Kings we would have known about that already. Then Blackfyre would have been the sword of the Targaryen kings Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, and it is very likely that Rhaegar would have wielded it at the Trident. If Aerys had not given to him when he showed promise as a knight in his youth then he would most certainly have done so when Rhaegar returned from the Tower of Joy and took supreme command of the troops to deal with Robert. It would have been a powerful symbol if he had Blackfyre and/or Dark Sister. In fact, I'm quite sure that Rhaegar would have defeated and killed Robert had he had a Valyrian steel sword at the Trident. They tend to cut through lesser steel and thus would have given him a huge advantage over Robert.

By the way: Arya does not give a fig about Visenya. She neither mentions nor idolizes her. That's the TV show.

[RumHam]

The Blackfyre heir through the female line has the sword since the sword belongs to the Blackfyre family, not the GC. Who that person is is a matter of debate.

I think you may be giving the Golden Company a little too much credit. With the male line of the Blackfyre's extinguished, I think the commander of the Golden Company after Maelys would have just claimed the sword for his own.

Edit: that's if they even still had the sword in Maelys' day, which is far from a given.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think you may be giving the Golden Company a little too much credit. With the male line of the Blackfyre's extinguished, I think the commander of the Golden Company after Maelys would have just claimed the sword for his own.

Edit: that's if they even still had the sword in Maelys' day, which is far from a given.

Didn't JonCon or somebody else refer to the GC as Bittersteel's heirs?

[RumHam]

Yeah:

The chaos that would inevitably have delayed such a march with a hastily assembled host of household knights and local levies had been nowhere in evidence. These were the heirs of Bittersteel, and discipline was mother’s milk to them.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yeah:

Thanks.

[bent branch]

I think you may be giving the Golden Company a little too much credit. With the male line of the Blackfyre's extinguished, I think the commander of the Golden Company after Maelys would have just claimed the sword for his own.

Edit: that's if they even still had the sword in Maelys' day, which is far from a given.

I understand where you're coming from. However, if Blackfyre is the property of the GC, then the symbolism of Blackfyre becomes the GC. In other words, Blackfyre can be given by the GC to any individual the GC chooses and that person becomes the symbolic leader of the GC. This means they could choose to give the sword to Aegon Targaryen the VI and he is the leader of the GC even if he is not a Blackfyre. In fact, that Aegon has not yet been given the sword argues against the GC having the sword. They should have given him the sword when they pledged to him. When and if Blackfyre reappears, the person revealing the sword will be the Blackfyre of the female line that Illyrio drops hints about.

[micka_au]

This is just my point of view, I think Bloodraven was allowed to take Dark Sister with him as there was master Aemon was on the wall at the same same time and it could be sent back to the family down south. also as Bloodraven was a Lord commander of the nights watch it could be in castle black somewhere.

[HannibalStark]

again, just a thought, but Bloodraven was quite literally no dummy...and not stupid enough, it seems to have allowed Blackfyre (the sword that spawned so many problems...problems he put an end to in Westeros) Why would he have allowed it to have gotten away? It is said Bittersteel absconded with it and went to flee across the narrow and founded the Golden Company with it?

The last confirmed sighting of it was on the Redgrass Field while the Black Dragon used it to Duel (and quite a famous duel) the Corbray wielding Lady Forlorn...then Bloodraven put an end to the Black Dragon very soon after if I am not mistake....BloodRaven knowing the reason for the rebellion and the sword that gave it teeth, after killing the one causing the problem, the one with the sword, I have a hard time beliving he just left it for it to be taken by someone else....to start this all over again?

Whether you believe it was left at the Wall, or put in a crypt of where ever...it seems to be beyond a doube Bloodraven was at least in possession of both swords at one point...and Blackfyre never being heard of again....would suggest it was put safely and securely away for safe keeping.

[COYStars]

Of course we don't know what's in Lyanna's crypt.

The notion of Jon wielding Dark Sister to fight the others is an attractive one. But then again, something would have had to have happened to Longclaw.

But the switch from bastard wielding a bastard sword, to Targaryen wielding Dark Sister, would be noteworthy.

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

Of course we don't know what's in Lyanna's crypt.

The notion of Jon wielding Dark Sister to fight the others is an attractive one. But then again, something would have had to have happened to Longclaw.

But the switch from bastard wielding a bastard sword, to Targaryen wielding Dark Sister, would be noteworthy.

First of all, I find it odd that Jorah abandoned Longclaw before he fled. It seems that a sword like that would have helped him tenfold in Essos. I am under the impression that Longclaw is actually Dark Sister. It just doesn't make sense that someone, who would need either money or a sword while fleeing, would just abandon his ONE money maker.

ETA: The wiki describes Longclaw and how it was left behind by Jorah, which is where I got that info.

[The Pale Mare Rides]

It actually would not surprise me if Bloodraven had both of them hidden for the right ruler/s.... I some believe it was taken from a Blackfyre defeat. I am with majority and thin we will see Aegon break it out and lead to his downfall.

[RumHam]

again, just a thought, but Bloodraven was quite literally no dummy...and not stupid enough, it seems to have allowed Blackfyre (the sword that spawned so many problems...problems he put an end to in Westeros) Why would he have allowed it to have gotten away? It is said Bittersteel absconded with it and went to flee across the narrow and founded the Golden Company with it?

The last confirmed sighting of it was on the Redgrass Field while the Black Dragon used it to Duel (and quite a famous duel) the Corbray wielding Lady Forlorn...then Bloodraven put an end to the Black Dragon very soon after if I am not mistake....BloodRaven knowing the reason for the rebellion and the sword that gave it teeth, after killing the one causing the problem, the one with the sword, I have a hard time beliving he just left it for it to be taken by someone else....to start this all over again?

Whether you believe it was left at the Wall, or put in a crypt of where ever...it seems to be beyond a doube Bloodraven was at least in possession of both swords at one point...and Blackfyre never being heard of again....would suggest it was put safely and securely away for safe keeping.

There is nothing to suggest that Bloodraven was ever in possession of Blackfyre. We know for a fact that Bittersteel grabbed the sword and escaped across the Narrow Sea after the first Blackfyre rebellion. We know he didn't have enough faith in Daemon II and thus kept the sword in Essos during the abortive Second Blackfyre Rebellion. The Third Blackfyre Rebellion is where it gets interesting, in terms of Blackfyre's fate:

In 219 AC, Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Of the deeds done then, both good and ill—of the leadership of Maekar, the actions of Aerion Brightflame, the courage of Maekar’s youngest son, and the second duel between Bloodraven and Bittersteel—we know well. The pretender Haegon I Blackfyre died in the aftermath of battle, slain treacherously after he had given up his sword, but Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel, was taken alive and returned to the Red Keep in chains. Many still insist that if he had been put to the sword then and there, as Prince Aerion and Bloodraven urged, it might have meant an early end to the Blackfyre ambitions.

So in all likelihood the Targaryens should have reclaimed Blackfyre then and there. Though it is possible some one other than Bittersteel picked up the sword and fled with it. But as you said, at that point you have to start wondering why the Targaryens keep leaving the sword on the ground to be picked up by their enemies. Especially since it seems like Haegon surrendered.

If the Targaryens did reclaim it during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion there are plenty of opportunities for it to become lost to them. (Martin confirmed in an SSM that it was "long lost by Rhaegar's day.)

[The hairy bear]

RumHam,

The best explanaition I can make up to explain the haegon I giving up his sword part is that perhaps the side of the Black dragon had mortgaged the sword in the Free Cities in order to finance the campaign (hire sellswords, or ships for the transport). It would seem a desperate thing to do, but exile is harsh and their cause was becoming more of a lost hope every year that passed.

That could also provide a good explanation of how Illyrio could have obtained it in the present.

[RumHam]

That's an interesting possibility. I wonder if they could have been that desperate. The Golden Company had existed for seven years before the third rebellion, so they should have had money then. But maybe they sold it earlier to get the funds to help establish the Golden Company

[Lord Varys]

I'm inclined to believe that Aerys I did indeed regain Blackfyre during the Third Rebellion. What happened to it later may be an interesting story. I've tossed around the idea that Aerys II actually still had in his possession up until the Sack but refused to give it to Rhaegar - then Varys could have stolen it along with Aegon - if he did that - and the dragon eggs during the Sack. I'd not trust all that much in rather old SSMs which may have been written at times when George had not yet figured the details of all the Blackfyre Rebellions. Thinking about that may have caused him to realize that it would be rather weird if Bittersteel/the Blackfyres could keep the sword throughout all of them if they actually lost every attempt to claim the Iron Throne.

However, it is quite possible that the Targaryens simply lost the sword during some of the later troubles after regaining it in 219 AC. The Peake Uprising and Maekar's death in battle springs to mind. Maekar would have wielded the blade then and there, and it may have simply been stolen or disappeared after his death. More importantly, the troubles during the reign of Aegon V could also have led to the disappearance of Blackfyre - most importantly, in the wake of Summerhall (if the sword had been there, it may simply have not turned up again in the ruins of the castle).

The fact that TWoIaF indicated that Maelys the Monstrous did not, in fact, wield Blackfyre when he fought Barristan Selmy is another big hint that the Blackfyres no longer had Blackfyre at that time. Sure, technically Maelys could just have preferred the morning star to a sword, but it is very unlikely that anyone would not fight with Blackfyre/a Valyrian steel sword if he had one ready.

It may be that George originally intended to return Blackfyre into the story as a Blackfyre heirloom but then decided to return it to the Targaryens in a way to further obscure the whole Aegon thing - after all, the Golden Company and Blackfyre (if it was always in possession of House Blackfyre) would look very 'blackfyrey' to any bystander - much more than would make sense if George's intention is for Aegon to win the Iron Throne as Aegon VI Targaryen.

If the Blackfyres could somehow keep Blackfyre despite the fact that Haegon apparently gave it up it is also very unlikely that Daemon III did not lose it. After all, he was slain by Dunk in direct combat, and while the whole Redgrass Field scenario makes it clear how Bittersteel could gain the sword, it is quite unlikely that somebody could slip away with Blackfyre after Dunk had just slain its bearer.

We could also entertain interesting notions about the bearers of Dark Sister after Bloodraven went to the Wall - candidates I could see: Aegon V himself, of course, if the Targaryens did not have Blackfyre, Dunk (these two were very close and it would not surprise me one bit if Egg gave his friend a Valyrian steel sword), Prince Duncan, and Prince Daeron. If Daeron had the sword during his fight against the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig it may have been disappeared after Daeron's death, if Duncan had it, it may have disappeared after Summerhall.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

IF Bloodraven has Darksister it would had to be a scenario where he hid it before he was imprisoned (he knew it was special?) and got someone to retrieve it when he got to the Wall.

If you proceed on that line of thought, Darksister being in the True North must mean that it is meant for Jon right? But what does he do with Long Claw in the mean time? Dual wield them?

I can see where at the end of the series he gives Long Claw to Jorah (For LC Mormont and to fulfill Daenerys' promise to give Jorah a sword), but what until then? There is probably awhile (if ever) before Jon meets Jorah.

I can see a scenario where Jon gives Jorah Long Claw, Daenerys gets Blackfyre from fAegon and presents it to the rightful King Jon and Jon gives Darksister to Daenerys.....
But that seems really Disney.

[JohnBlackSnow]

I once had a hypothesis that Longclaw is Blackfyre, long story short, tWoIaF dashed my hunch.