Who is the best military commander in fire and ice?

[The Fallen]

I'm not denying this was a good, non-BF move, but In the same conversation, Robb gives most of his army over to the ancestral enemy of House Stark, which gets him killed and his entire army destroyed in the end.

What other idea do we know Robb came up with?

I believe we can credit him with the foray into the west. Also, not doing what Tywin expected or was trying to force Robb to do. The feint at the Greenfork was also his idea.

As far as Roose goes, the Boltons bent the knee 1,000 years ago and as far as we know they've been faithful to the Starks. Roose fought alongside Ned during Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion and also answered Robb's call faithfully. We know why Robb gave Roose the command. The Greatjon would've been too reckless. Edmure stopping Tywin, enabling him to meet up with the Tyrells and defeat Stannis is what finally pushed Roose to betray Robb.

Why on earth did Tywin take the easily defended River Road rather than the Gold Road if he was trying to return home?

Tywin wasn't trying to get home. He was going after Robb, preferably to try and trap Robb out west. Why take a circuitous route that puts Robb in between him and King's Landing?

[Riptide]

because the gold road goes from kingslanding ,through the reach and ends at lanisport and the rock. (he'd have to go around the kingdom to use it).

the river road is much faster , goes directly through the golden tooth

The part he needed to be on we actually don't know who rules. Even if it was the Reach, would such a minor move really make a difference in who the Reach sides with? Tywin is rich as hell, he can more than reimburse Mace should he get back his gold mines. Surely the most important part of the move west is getting there with an intact army.

I believe we can credit him with the foray into the west.

There is not enough evidence to make that assesment. When he suggests it to Cat he may have just made it up, or anyone from the Blackfish to Theon could have suggested it the day before yesterday. We just don't know.

The Greatjon would've been too reckless.

What about the other couple of dozen of nobles in Robb's host? He didn't even stop to consider giving the command to any of them.

[Riptide]

Someone else badly underrated: Ser Gregor Clegane. He captures Pinkmaiden and Stone Hedge at the start of the war with apparent ease, successfully repulses an attack at the Green Fork with a wing that was intended to break (I know this was bad for Tywin but he didn't) while inflicting heavy casulties, takes Darry with apparent ease, makes quick work of the Northmen at Duskendale (yes I know this was easy, but tell that to Randyll Tarly), kills another 2000 of Robb's men at the Ruby Ford, then takes the continent's biggest castle with no trouble. Certainly he's better than Tywin.

[Minsc]

The part he needed to be on we actually don't know who rules. Even if it was the Reach, would such a minor move really make a difference in who the Reach sides with? Tywin is rich as hell, he can more than reimburse Mace should he get back his gold mines. Surely the most important part of the move west is getting there with an intact army.

Lords don't typically like opposing lords marching an army though their territory, especially ones know for their pillaging and raiding (aka the Lannister forces).

Thus, it would be idiotic for Tywin to march his forces though the neutral Reach which might open the possibility that Mace or someother Reach lord might oppose the Lannister intrusion on their lands and march against his forces. Thus, making the powerful forces of the currently neutral Reach another enemy that Tywin has to worry about alongside the North, Riverlands, and Stannis.

[WildFury]

Tywin lannister:

He was a decent military commander. Better with "Quill" than with the sword. Ruthless, with next to no conscience (Using Mountain the way he did).

Randyll tarly:

He is a skilled commander. Knows his soldiers, can maintain order and discipline.

Robb stark:

Best military commander and strategist of the lot. However he was not shrewd like Tywin. Credit to be given to Blackfish for excellent counselling.

Stannis baratheon:

Most experienced and very headstrong. Can look through flatters and values bitter truths.

Daenerys Targaryen:

Had shown intelligence when conquering free cities and acquiring the unsullied, but need to get some experience. Tyrion counselling her can do a lot of damage.

Jon Snow:

He shows skills when he defends the wall. And I have a feeling he has a lot more to do. Considering he trained with Robb, he might have some of Robb's skills. He also gets wildlings from Stannis for mountain clans. And the way he persuades his father to spare direwolves, persuades Aemon to use Samwell as steward suggests that he can be skilled in finding allies.

I think Jon has potential to become the best yet. Currently it would be Stannis.

[Malcolm of House Tucker]

Badass Battlin' Bob Baratheon is the best military commander, hands down. His strategy for every engagment he led went something like this: "Alright, my commanders. You and your men can fight with me, just stay the hell out of my way." Then Robert proceeds to charge headfirst into the opposing camp and overcomes everyone in his path without any help.

This strategy makes him the greatest commander because he is saving the lives of many people on his own side by making things easier for them. And he was never defeated. Injured at least once, but never defeated. He even made the boar that killed him his bitch.

[Matoro]

Strategy = how to win a war, understanding big picture

Tactic = how to win a battle, surprises, assaults, flankings

Know your military terms!

[King Aerys the Just]

Someone else badly underrated: Ser Gregor Clegane. He captures Pinkmaiden and Stone Hedge at the start of the war with apparent ease, successfully repulses an attack at the Green Fork with a wing that was intended to break (I know this was bad for Tywin but he didn't) while inflicting heavy casulties, takes Darry with apparent ease, makes quick work of the Northmen at Duskendale (yes I know this was easy, but tell that to Randyll Tarly), kills another 2000 of Robb's men at the Ruby Ford, then takes the continent's biggest castle with no trouble. Certainly he's better than Tywin.

It's true that he does seem to be capable.

Harrenhal was essentially unguarded though, and I don't see why he would be any better than Tywin, but yes he is good at what he does.

[Barty]

Badass Battlin' Bob Baratheon is the best military commander, hands down. His strategy for every engagment he led went something like this: "Alright, my commanders. You and your men can fight with me, just stay the hell out of my way." Then Robert proceeds to charge headfirst into the opposing camp and overcomes everyone in his path without any help.

This strategy makes him the greatest commander because he is saving the lives of many people on his own side by making things easier for them. And he was never defeated. Injured at least once, but never defeated. He even made the boar that killed him his bitch.

He lost at Ashford to Randyll Tarly.

I'm guessing during the rebellion he was the figurehead and the real strategic decisions were made by Ned,Jon and Hoster.

[Jon Snow-Targaryen]

Tyrion won the Blackwater not Tywin.

Robb was the best, but sucked at politics (to bad Sansa wasn't with him)

Tywin's victories were mostly from just having a larger army

Stannis is a good candidate, but was beaten at the black water (Tyrion>Stannis)

Danys play is DRAGONS, a bit of a tactical advantage(Fire and Blood)

Tarly we don't have much evidence for

so I'd say

1.) Robb

T-2.)Stannis

T-2.)Tyrion

4.)Tarly

5.)Tywin

6.)Dany

[( Bloodraven )]

Stannis. Hands down.

Has experiance in defending against a siege, setting up a siege, assulting a fortified position, amphibious warfare, naval combat, combined arms, all cavalry and all infantry (Deepwood Motte 2, Battle of the Ice?) forces, pursuit, ambush, using a fient, retreat (the hardest manuever), logistics, inserting dicipline, working with different types of troops (Crownlanders, Stormlanders, Reachmen, Northerners, Pirates, Wildlings, Sellswords, Clansmen...), winter warfare, night combat...

He's the best commander for the job. Pretty much any job.

:bowdown:

Second place imo would be between Randyll Tarly and Ned Stark.

[Buckthorn]

Why aren't Euron Greyjoy or Jon Snow on here? Both are good able commanders.

[Minsc]

Tyrion won the Blackwater not Tywin.

Actually, both played equal role (with the Tyrells) in the victory at Blackwater. In how, Stannis would have taken the city earlier if not for Tyrion's (and some of Cersei) role in preparing King's Landing for his invasion. However, equally if Tywin and the Tyrells hadn't shown up then Stannis' forces would have eventually overcame Tyrion's forces and taken the city.

[King Aerys the Just]

Why aren't Euron Greyjoy or Jon Snow on here? Both are good able commanders.

At least Euron is, I don't think Jon Snow has done all that much yet. Jon Connington is another promising candidate, though he like Robb Stark now also has very competent people working for him in the form of the Golden Company.

Mance Rayder has to be one of the worst. He made a lot of very weird decisions prior to and during his assault on the Wall.

[Nictarion]

Danys play is DRAGONS, a bit of a tactical advantage(Fire and Blood)

Dany only used the dragons in the HOTU, and Astapor. Yunkai surrendering was partly due to her plan to get the sellswords drunk, and suprise attack them. She took Meereen due to the sneek attack through the sewers.

[Teiresias]

I'd say Robb is far and away the best tactician, but Tywin is a better strategist. eg. Robb IIRC only showed one long term plan to defeat Tywin buy luring Tywin into the west, but when that fell apart after the Blackwater didn't come up with a new one. Tywin's plan to get the riverlords back into the KIng's peace seems largely successful.

[direwienerdog]

Training, armor, weapons, horses, and the element of surprise counted for a lot of the victory. I'm sorry but I fail to see what Stannis did that was so ingenious.

I have to agree with this. Not a great tactician but fabulously talented logistics.

I would put my money on The Ned with a big nod toward the Blackfish. I think Great uncle Brendon helped the Young Wolf with strategy.

Stannis would be about number four and we know a lot about his battles compared to the others. He commands respect and is solid but not great. Storms End should have been a defeat but incompetence from the opposition allowed him too much time to resist. More pressure by the Tyrell forces would have won the day. They became lax and were content to starve him out.

[E-Ro]

Implying someone can't "grasp" something, is very condescending. I'm not really sure how you didn't realize you were be condescending.

Oh well. You will just have to get over it. Hope i didnt cause you to lose any sleep though.

[BryndenBFish]

Hi folks, I'm the writer of the blog bryndenbfish.wordpress.com. I can't jump too far into the debate on who was the best, but I think you can't look at military greatness from one single vantage point. I'd posit that you should look at:

1. Wins/Losses balance sheet

2. Tactical flexibility

3. Strategic thinking

4. Victories where the odds were stacked up against the victors

I'd say that on balance:

1. Robb Stark was the greatest tactician having won against Jaime at the Whispering Woods and Battle of the Camps. Also, the secret movement around the Golden Tooth and smashing of Stafford Lannister's Army at Oxcross was tactically brilliant.

2. Tywin was the greatest strategist. His only real win during the War of the Five Kings was at the Green Fork. And his victory at KL came almost entirely through Garlan Tyrell and the vanguard. But previously he had won during the Defiance of Duskende and before that, at Castamere and Tarbeck Hall.

3. Stannis Baratheon was the most well-rounded commander having fought at land/sea and securing victories in both. Also, his upending of the strategic picture when he sailed from Dragonstone to the Wall was a masterstoke.

So, that's a very short summary. You can find more on the blog.

[Jevans]

Brynden Tully deserves a mention, as does Victarion Greyjoy.