Who is the best military commander in fire and ice?

[LucionLannister]

So, to defend Tywin against some of the big things people bring up to discredit him;

1) Robb Stark NEVER beat Tywin Lannister. He beat Ser Jaime and a moronic Stafford Lannister with half-trained troops. He never fought an actual battle with Tywin; they were never even close. So whilte Robb obviously had a natural gift for command, we have no direct evidence to suggest that he is a better commander than Lord Tywin.

2) Tywin did not take significant losses at the Battle of the Fords. He sent out a some men (Addam Marbrand, Leo Lefford, Gregor Clegane) who tried to cross at weak points, sometimes quite viciously, but he never brought his full army to the battle. After his scouts failed to cross he retreated to eventually go on to King's Landing. It was not some huge defeat. We don't know who would have won if Tywin had regrouped and tried to cross again in a different way.

And on a side note, Robb Stark lost his own war. How the hell could he be a fantastic, better-than-Tywin-and-Stannis commander?

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

And on a side note, Robb Stark lost his own war. How the hell could he be a fantastic, better-than-Tywin-and-Stannis commander?

He displayed more military skill than either Tywin or Stannis. His conduct of the campaign in aGoT is when the author tries to get across someone is making excellent military decisions. Robb never played into anyone's hands. He always did the unexpected. He lost mostly because of factors outside his control. Balon Greyjoy just randomly decided to behave like a madman and invade the north. The fall of Winterfell was 100% illogical. There was no reason for Ser Rodrick to use all the garrison to relieve Torrhen's Square. GrrM wrote that part of the story in a way that makes no sense. It does not reflect on Robb. In so far as things were in his control they were nothing to do with generalship (like marrying Jeyne).

I'm far from being in awe of Tywin but I agree with some of the things you said about him. I think Tywin made intelligent decisions during the war. He struggled because of bad subordinates and a bit of bad luck. I don't know if he would have beaten Robb if he got back west. Even if he did, Robb had probably ruined his war effort anyway by that point.

Not impressed with Stannis myself.

[Erkan12]

So, to defend Tywin against some of the big things people bring up to discredit him;

1) Robb Stark NEVER beat Tywin Lannister. He beat Ser Jaime and a moronic Stafford Lannister with half-trained troops. He never fought an actual battle with Tywin; they were never even close. So whilte Robb obviously had a natural gift for command, we have no direct evidence to suggest that he is a better commander than Lord Tywin.

2) Tywin did not take significant losses at the Battle of the Fords. He sent out a some men (Addam Marbrand, Leo Lefford, Gregor Clegane) who tried to cross at weak points, sometimes quite viciously, but he never brought his full army to the battle. After his scouts failed to cross he retreated to eventually go on to King's Landing. It was not some huge defeat. We don't know who would have won if Tywin had regrouped and tried to cross again in a different way.

And on a side note, Robb Stark lost his own war. How the hell could he be a fantastic, better-than-Tywin-and-Stannis commander?

Tywin send raven to Jaime ; 'I'm marching against Robb Stark' , and Jaime has fault on this ? It was Robb's strategic move and Tywin fall it. And again at Westerlands, Tywin was ready to go Robb and fall his trap again but luckily Edmure stopped that.

Without Jaime i doubt Tywin would defeat Edmure and siege Riverrun since Tywin lost to Edmure at Fords. When Robb destroy his other army at Oxcross what Tywin did about that ? Nothing.

Tywin was very lucky about Tyrion's work at Blackwater and then Tyrells joined him. Robb didn't lost the war with battles. He lost it with treachery.

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

Tywin send raven to Jaime ; 'I'm marching against Robb Stark' , and Jaime has fault on this ?

In the opinion of the Blackfish: yes. Tyrion also flagged up how incautious Jaime was in contrast to his father. The information Tywin gave Jaime was accurate as far as it went. If Tywin had made a mistake Brynden wouldn't have kept saying how he was 'no man's fool.'

[LucionLannister]

He displayed more military skill than either Tywin or Stannis. His conduct of the campaign in aGoT is when the author tries to get across someone is making excellent military decisions. Robb never played into anyone's hands. He always did the unexpected. He lost mostly because of factors outside his control. Balon Greyjoy just randomly decided to behave like a madman and invade the north. The fall of Winterfell was 100% illogical. There was no reason for Ser Rodrick to use all the garrison to relieve Torrhen's Square. GrrM wrote that part of the story in a way that makes no sense. It does not reflect on Robb. In so far as things were in his control they were nothing to do with generalship (like marrying Jeyne).

First, Balon Greyjoy had no intention of taking either Torrhen's Square or Winterfell. That was ALL rogue, upset, I-have-daddy-issues Theon. If Robb Stark had listened to his mommy and kept Theon close, Winterfell would have never had fallen and keeping hold of the north would have been much easier. Robb Stark's poor decision led to the fast conquest and sack of Winterfell.

Robb Stark also let Roose Bolton (the head of a house with a millenia long history of enmity with the Starks), who everyone knows is bad news and incredibly ambitious, off to do his own thing with a huge portion of his army with no other supervision. He should have kept his questionable bannerman close. He could have better avoided a Red Wedding.

AND if he had simply been like "YO Uncle Edmure, if you see Tywin's army march by just let him go. We got this plan to get him the west. K, bro?". If he just added that simply explanation when he left for the West, Stannis would have killed Joffrey and Cersei, House Stark's honor and justice would be satisfied. But no. He failed to give proper commands to Edmure, and it led to a tactical defeat by strengthening the Lannister's overall position.

Robb Stark IS NOT BETTER THAN TYWIN or even Stannis.

[Erkan12]

In the opinion of the Blackfish: yes. Tyrion also flagged up how incautious Jaime was in contrast to his father. The information Tywin gave Jaime was accurate as far as it went. If Tywin had made a mistake Brynden wouldn't have kept saying how he was 'no man's fool.'

People accusing Jaime about that well it maybe. But many reader forgetting his incautious talent won Riverlands not Tywin. I doubt, Tywin would defeat Edmure so easily and that would gave Robb great advantage from beginning. But losing Riverlands from beginning was another bad luck for Robb.

Jaime - Defeating Edmure easily

Tyrion - Defending Blackwater against Stannis

They did better job than Tywin as commander ihmo.

[LucionLannister]

People accusing Jaime about that well it maybe. But many reader forgetting his incautious talent won Riverlands not Tywin. I doubt, Tywin would defeat Edmure so easily and that would gave Robb great advantage from beginning. But losing Riverlands from beginning was another bad luck for Robb.

Jaime - Defeating Edmure easily

Tyrion - Defending Blackwater against Stannis

They did better job than Tywin as commander ihmo.

Firstly, Tyrion didn't defend the Blackwater by himself. Stannis would have taken the city if Lords Tywin and Tyrell hadn't shown up.

Secondly, Jaime probably fought a noticeable smaller force than Tywin did. Jaime also had a much more favorable position (coming down from the hills) than Tywin (trying to assault by crossing a river) did.

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

First, Balon Greyjoy had no intention of taking either Torrhen's Square or Winterfell. That was ALL rogue, upset, I-have-daddy-issues Theon. If Robb Stark had listened to his mommy and kept Theon close, Winterfell would have never had fallen and keeping hold of the north would have been much easier. Robb Stark's poor decision led to the fast conquest and sack of Winterfell.

I'm a little confused about your initial critique of my post here. I know Balon didn't order Theon to do what he did. However, Balon did eventually plan to take Winterfell. What I was getting at was that Winterfell would not have fallen had Balon not decided to invade. Theon's action was a spin off of Balon's campaign. It wouldn't have happened without it. And there is very little logic behind Balon's decision. In purely military terms Balon's plan makes zero sense. He tied up all his forces holding coastal positions. He had no men to actually take anything of value. There was next to no plunder in the north. If he succeeded the northern kingdom would vanish and he'd have to face the south all on his own. Robb had little reason to think he'd behave as oddly as he did. Robb thought giving him Theon back would cement their alliance. Robb couldn't have executed Theon anyway. He was his friend and Theon had saved Bran and fought for the Starks. The hostage relationship was more or less over. Even leaving this aside, Winterfell falling is not on Robb. His castellan let him down. The capital of the north should be able to hold against 30-50 men. There are at least 10,000 soldiers left in the north, even at a conservative estimate. Robb hadn't left the place undefended.

Robb Stark also let Roose Bolton (the head of a house with a millenia long history of enmity with the Starks), who everyone knows is bad news and incredibly ambitious, off to do his own thing with a huge portion of his army with no other supervision. He should have kept his questionable bannerman close. He could have better avoided a Red Wedding.

He picked the right man for the job at the time. He had no reason to think Roose was planning the Red Wedding. He is not psychic. Do you think Tywin also made a big mistake by not executing Varys. He said he might in aGoT. He never followed through. Varys wrecked the last hopes of his dynasty after his death. He should have seen that one coming should he not?

AND if he had simply been like "YO Uncle Edmure, if you see Tywin's army march by just let him go. We got this plan to get him the west. K, bro?". If he just added that simply explanation when he left for the West, Stannis would have killed Joffrey and Cersei, House Stark's honor and justice would be satisfied. But no. He failed to give proper commands to Edmure, and it led to a tactical defeat by strengthening the Lannister's overall position.

He made one military mistake. Everyone who we have seen in action has made at least one mistake, or misjudgement. Every general in history has too; Alexander, Napoleon, all of them. This doesn't offset the fact Robb had the most successful plans of all the generals in the books. There is a theory Robb was making the plan up to get Edmure to marry a Frey in his place. I think there might be something to this theory, although overall I am not convinced. Robb probably just didn't think Tywin would follow him so quickly because he didn't know Stannis was going to barge in, maniac that he is, and split the southern anti-lannister forces.

[Darth Visenya]

Aerys :bowdown:.

[LucionLannister]

I'm a little confused about your initial critique of my post here. I know Balon didn't order Theon to do what he did. However, Balon did eventually plan to take Winterfell. What I was getting at was that Winterfell would not have fallen had Balon not decided to invade. Theon's action was a spin off of Balon's campaign. It wouldn't have happened without it. And there is very little logic behind Balon's decision. In purely military terms Balon's plan makes zero sense. He tied up all his forces holding coastal positions. He had no men to actually take anything of value. There was next to no plunder in the north. If he succeeded the northern kingdom would vanish and he'd have to face the south all on his own. Robb had little reason to think he'd behave as oddly as he did. Robb thought giving him Theon back would cement their alliance. Robb couldn't have executed Theon anyway. He was his friend and Theon had saved Bran and fought for the Starks. The hostage relationship was more or less over. Even leaving this aside, Winterfell falling is not on Robb. His castellan let him down. The capital of the north should be able to hold against 30-50 men. There are at least 10,000 soldiers left in the north, even at a conservative estimate. Robb hadn't left the place undefended.

He picked the right man for the job at the time. He had no reason to think Roose was planning the Red Wedding. He is not psychic. Do you think Tywin also made a big mistake by not executing Varys. He said he might in aGoT. He never followed through. Varys wrecked the last hopes of his dynasty after his death. He should have seen that one coming should he not?

He made one military mistake. Everyone who we have seen in action has made at least one mistake, or misjudgement. Every general in history has too; Alexander, Napoleon, all of them. This doesn't offset the fact Robb had the most successful plans of all the generals in the books.

Yes, Balon would have eventually tried to take Winterfell. But it was not in his immediate plans. He probably would have secured Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte before hand, which would have given Ser Rodrik more time to pull an actual army together while still leaving defenders in Winterfell.

And secondly, House Bolton's history should have been enough for Robb to know to not to put too much trust in him. Let's look at House Tyrell. When Catelyn goes down to see Renly at his camp, we NEVER see Lord Alestor Florent or any Florent around, despite the fact that he's one of the most prominent lords in the region and declared for Renly. Probably because even Mace Tyrell knows that the Florents are not the #1 Tyrell fans, so he should try and keep them from exerting too much control over the army.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm a little confused about your initial critique of my post here. I know Balon didn't order Theon to do what he did. However, Balon did eventually plan to take Winterfell. What I was getting at was that Winterfell would not have fallen had Balon not decided to invade. Theon's action was a spin off of Balon's campaign. It wouldn't have happened without it. And there is very little logic behind Balon's decision. In purely military terms Balon's plan makes zero sense. He tied up all his forces holding coastal positions. He had no men to actually take anything of value. There was next to no plunder in the north. If he succeeded the northern kingdom would vanish and he'd have to face the south all on his own. Robb had little reason to think he'd behave as oddly as he did. Robb thought giving him Theon back would cement their alliance. Robb couldn't have executed Theon anyway. He was his friend and Theon had saved Bran and fought for the Starks. The hostage relationship was more or less over. Even leaving this aside, Winterfell falling is not on Robb. His castellan let him down. The capital of the north should be able to hold against 30-50 men. There are at least 10,000 soldiers left in the north, even at a conservative estimate. Robb hadn't left the place undefended.

I agree with you about the harebrained stupidity of Ser Rodrick's actions. But Balon's plan made a lot more sense than you give him credit for. By attacking the North, he avoids pissing off the Iron Throne (who will not spare him a second time) and gains easy access to new territory. Robb Stark is someone who has no capability to strike back at him on Pyke, even if the Ironborn are driven from the North. Moat Cailin also gives him a huge advantage.

Also, Robb wasn't necessarily wrong to trust Theon (well, he was in hindsight but I'll let that slide). He was wrong to trust Balon. He was naive enough to think "Of course the Lord Reaper of Pyke will appreciate me sending back his boy, and be persuaded by my letter!" even though Catelyn warned him not to. By sending Theon home he gave up his only leverage over the Iron Islands for no benefit. Not something Tywin or the Blackfish or Roose or anyone with more political skill would have done

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

People accusing Jaime about that well it maybe. But many reader forgetting his incautious talent won Riverlands not Tywin. I doubt, Tywin would defeat Edmure so easily and that would gave Robb great advantage from beginning. But losing Riverlands from beginning was another bad luck for Robb.

Jaime - Defeating Edmure easily

Tyrion - Defending Blackwater against Stannis

They did better job than Tywin as commander ihmo.

I'm not sure why you think Tywin would not defeat Edmure. He seems to have planned the first campaign, so ... really he did beat Edmure. He wasn't present at the battle outside Riverrun, true. But he knew how to play Edmure. He knew Edmure was concerned for the smallfolk and that allowed him to scatter the Tully forces. I don't think Jaime would have done better at the fords, necessarily.

Tyrion (that little shit) did an objectively poor job. If he is holding a city until a relieving army arrives he needs to hold out for more than a day. He was failing at that when Tywin arrived to save him. I'm not sure GrrM realizes this though, so there's that.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

Tyrion (that little shit) did an objectively poor job. If he is holding a city until a relieving army arrives he needs to hold out for more than a day. He was failing at that when Tywin arrived to save him. I'm not sure GrrM realizes this though, so there's that.

Sorry, what? Tyrion did tremendous job.

1) He trapped and burned Stannis' navy. While he didn't order the wildfire, he was responsible of chain and thus the use of wilfire in the river. Cersei, if I remember right, was going to use wildfire from walls (which also happened to some extent).

2) He send his clansmen to harass and blind Stannis' forces, killing most of his scouts and outriders. This allowed Tywin and Tyrells surprise Stannis and nearly completely annihilate his host.

3) While Stannis indeed was going to take the city, he was winning 'cause coldcloaks broke and routed. And reason they broke in first place was Cersei's order to bring Joffrey to Red Keep. Order which Tyrion couldn't cancel, being fighting outside walls.

That said, I don't really see how Stannis' would-be victory could be seen as Tyrion's fault. He made best use of all recources he had, organized defence despite never receiving any military education, personally participated fighting despite his dwarfism, and outside pure military preparations, organized some food supply to ease the shortage. He also evacuated two of three claimants of the throne (well, Cersei helped a bit with Tommen).

Seriously, what else could he have done?

[Gneisenau]

Tyrion (that little shit) did an objectively poor job. If he is holding a city until a relieving army arrives he needs to hold out for more than a day. He was failing at that when Tywin arrived to save him. I'm not sure GrrM realizes this though, so there's that.

Tyrion only needed to hold on for a day, and my evidence is that Tywin and the Tyrells arrived in a day or so.

[Buckthorn]

Why isn't Roose on here? He is calculating and seems to keep his forces disciplined and well organized. Look at Battle of the Green Folk and Red Wedding.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Why isn't Roose on here? He is calculating and seems to keep his forces disciplined and well organized. Look at Battle of the Green Folk and Red Wedding.

People think winning battles is everything, that's why. Most of the posters on here have little regard for winning through cunning schemes

His conquest of Harrenhall was very impressive but no one ever gives him credit for it

[Buckthorn]

People think winning battles is everything, that's why. Most of the posters on here have little regard for winning through cunning schemes

His conquest of Harrenhall was very impressive but no one ever gives him credit for it

Wow, totally forgot about that well executed plan/deal with the Brave Companions. I can't recall, but did he lose any men at all? Well not only is he a great commander but he knows how to bring people to his side.

[Fat Mac]

People think winning battles is everything, that's why. Most of the posters on here have little regard for winning through cunning schemes

His conquest of Harrenhall was very impressive but no one ever gives him credit for it

I agree.

I think that Stannis will win the upcoming battle of Winterfell, but people act like Roose is completely screwed. I think they underestimate the great Roose Bolton.

[Petyr Patter]

Why isn't Roose on here? He is calculating and seems to keep his forces disciplined and well organized. Look at Battle of the Green Folk and Red Wedding.

Well, let us examine Roose.

1. Battle of the Green Trident. A loss. Admittedly, a loss in which he was outnumbered and out equipped. He also managed to retreat in relatively good order.

Capture of Harrenhall. Victory. Sort of. The problem with this victory is he won it when half the garrison forces defected and opened the gates to let his much larger army in while simultaneously wiping out the still loyal half of the garrison. Essentially, he won it with treachery, which is not the same thing as military skill.

March on Duskendale. A defeat. Sure, he was intentionally sending away troops more loyal to Robb than him to die, but intentionally loosing is still losing.

Crossing the Trident. His rear guard was ambushed by Gregor Clegane and decimated. Another intentional defeat.

The Red Wedding. A victory, though one planned by Lame Lothar and Black Walder, not him. It also was won by treachery, by breaking one of the oldest and most important rules in all of Westeros. So, not much a victory here for Roose.

Siege of Moat Caitlin. A surrender, though one where crannogmen not under Roose did all the actual fighting. To paraphrase Theon, "they have already lost, they just don't know it yet." It is also worth noting that the surrender was achieved with a promise of generous terms, which was promptly ignored. This is the sort of trick that can only be pulled once, as everyone would know you aren't trustworthy and it is better to die fighting than to get captured and flayed.

Defense of Winterfell, currently inconclusive. So here it is, Roose planned to use treachery once again to rack up an easy win, but we now know the Karstark backstab has been discovered and neutralized. He has greater numbers, and Walls to defend himself. If he can't pull out a traditional victory, the man is muck as a commander.

Where is the win which shows Roose as a top tier commander? Right now we have 1 sound defeat, 2 intentional defeats, 2 victories that relied heavily on treachery, 1 victory where other forces actually did the fighting, and 1 battle not yet decided which should be an easy win for Roose. Robb has two big victories against armies that outnumbered him. Stannis has his victories over the Iron Fleet and Mance Rayder's massive army. Heck, Daenaerys can claim the sack of Meereen as her victory.

[Riptide]

You're forgetting time. Tywin needed to be close to King's Landing. He's alread taking a huge gamble by going west after Robb.

Actually Deep Den (the east entrance to the Westerlands) is closer to King's Landing than the Golden Tooth (the Northeast enterence to the Westerlands), and has a road going straight to KL.

What would a siege of Riverrun accomplish? Nothing. Tywin is heading west to stop Robb from pillaging his lands. Plus, Riverrun wouldn't need Robb's help to survive a siege. Tywin needed to get to Robb quickly and then get back to be close to King's Landing.

Tywin (probably incorrectly) thought that if he tried destroying everything ruled directly from the seat of his most powerful bannerman that Robb would do what Edmure did at the start of the war to stop Gregor's raids and pull back to stop the destruction. And yes Riverrun would need Robb's help; they were threatened by a smaller army with a more careless commander just a few months ago.

He came up with that strategy on his own, yet you'll have us believe that once the Blackfish arrives on the scene he's responsible for every subsequent decision? It's obvious you don't intend on giving Robb credit so let's end it here.

No, I said we don't know who thought up the strategy, while you said without any real evidence that it was Robb. I also said Robb was a good commander so I'm giving him credit.

The Boltons are slightly more prestigious than the Manderlys. As a.commander you don't embarrass your biggest bannermen by placing lesser houses in more important positions. When Robb called his banners Roose came without any questions or protestations. Even if Robb had replaced Roose after the battle of the Green Fork it doesn't mean he wasn't the right man for that battle.

Maybe they are more presigious, but what about the Hornwoods or Karstarks (surely they have even more prestige) or Cerwyns? Also, Roose's high risk night march shows that he was the wrong man for the battle.