Sansa Stark

[ARYa_Nym]

But in her position, that was the highest position she could achieve. I agree, Asha would have more power than her, but It's not the same position. They are different societies and families. Whilst Asha's allowed her to have a claim, in Sansa's the best she could do was be a Queen Consort. Brienne is the same, as she's the only heiress. For Sansa, in her position and in her place, the highest honor could be achieved by marrying the King. In truth, no wife can know what type of husband expects them in ASOIAF. But the title in itself is the highest a Lady in Sansa's situation can achieve. So I agree that while Asha's situation wields her more power, the ambition to achieve the highest place in their possible situations is the same.

Right so the other two likely would have more power even though all of them wanted the highest possible position available to them.

No wife can kno it's true. In terms of being consort it matters a lot who your husband is so you can ascertain how much power you're likely to get. The Tyrells had the right mind frame because Tommen would be more manageable and Margaery could have more of a chance to be a queen with power if not for Cersei's meddling. Sansa would have been stuck with Joffrey if she had things her way and if things had not gone south with Ned.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Right so the other two likely would have more power even though all of them wanted the highest possible position available to them.

No wife can kno it's true. In terms of being consort it matters a lot who your husband is so you can ascertain how much power you're likely to get. The Tyrells had the right mind frame because Tommen would be more manageable and Margaery could have more of a chance to be a queen with power if not for Cersei's meddling. Sansa would have been stuck with Joffrey if she had things her way and if things had not gone south with Ned.

Exactly. Sansa doesn't lack ambition, but her ambition makes sense in regard to what she could achieve, and she ambitions the highest place a Lady can achieve.

I agree about the consort thing, though Sansa didn't knew Joffrey's true colors. Nor how many power she would or would not wield being the Wife of the King, but she knew that this position was the highest for a Lady in all Seven Kingdoms.

[Pod The Impaler]

Sadly I think it likely that Sansa will hop into bed with LF, a cruel parody of the Lyanna Rhaegar story.

One possibility, of several.

It's been discussed before, and for some it is a "worst case scenario" to see her willingly end up as Mrs. Baelish or something like it.

Nevertheless, as squick as it may be, there is the chance that GRRM could once again give fans only just enough hope rope to hang themselves.

About the various female roles, I just found a gem on tumblr:

Xena

Well, she's ahead of Arya in that respect. :P

Wow, this thread has really grown since I last looked at it. I have to agree with Newstar in that it does seem that a lot of people project their hopes for Sansa rather than honestly taking a look at what is likely based on her past behavior.... It is a credit to her that she is still alive considering what she has been through but I don't see any evidence that she is going to become some great player in the continent's political scene, based on what we know about Sansa from her POV's she just does not have the aptitude for it... The Gods made Sansa a pawn and she'll probably die a pawn, as for the "controversy" my money is on her sleeping with LF, him calling her Cat during sex and her rationalizing being okay with that. Maybe I'm wrong, I'd be glad to see her avenge the Starks and become a player but it will come out of nowhere if that happens.

Again, one possibility of a whole spectrum - that she "lost her wolf" when Lady died, and ultimately spends her life being shunted around and never really in control of it.

[Dicer]

I think for her age, Sansa's ambitions were realistically childish. We have children wanting to be fighter pilots because it's cool to fly fighter jets or become a fireman because it's brave to fight fire etc. They don't think beyond that and the wider implications of the job and often change their views when they grow up.

Sansa's view on what she could do as Queen was rather limited. I don't think she wanted to become Queen to feed the poor, fight wars or play political power games. It was more simple than that. In AGoT it was mainly about being able to order Arya around, knights and ladies, the court, King's Landing. She often mentions how Arya would have to bow and scrape around her once she became Queen. She was attracted to the power and she could see that Cersei had power as Queen (Which was why she thought Cersei could order Ned to stay and not leave WF). But I don't think she had a clear picture of what she could do with that power.

It's the same with Arya. She had not decided yet on what she wanted. She was younger than Sansa and was not good at the things that Sansa was (Sewing, singing etc.). She wanted different things. So she was basically trying out the things she was interested in. I would not call her any more ambitious than Sansa, just more curious and experimental. A nonconformist. She liked Syrio's lessons and so she trained hard at it. I think Ned saw it as a harmless hobby.

I think there is a difference in Sansa wanting to be Queen and Dany wanting to be Queen. Dany knows exactly why she wants that power. She wants revenge, she wants to free what she considers her people in Westeros from Baratheon tyrany (She may not be right in all this, but it's still a better reason that wanting to order around her little sister) and she wants what's rightfully hers.

.

[Pod The Impaler]

I think for her age, Sansa's ambitions were realistically childish. We have children wanting to be fighter pilots because it's cool to fly fighter jets or become a fireman because it's brave to fight fire etc. They don't think beyond that and the wider implications of the job and often change their views when they grow up.

Sansa's view on what she could do as Queen was rather limited. I don't think she wanted to become Queen to feed the poor, fight wars or play political power games. It was more simple than that. In AGoT it was mainly about being able to order Arya around, knights and ladies, the court, King's Landing. She often mentions how Arya would have to bow and scrape around her once she became Queen.

It's true.

[DormeDwayne]

In addition to what a few others have said above I think players as opposed to pawns are also able to look at situations more analytically rather than emotionally, and they recognize that every situation isn't all or none, some compromise. People who are ruled by their emotions are more predictable and hence easier manipulated.

In the post you quote BB, I was just talking about what differentiates a pawn from a player generally. As to Sansa, as I said above, she deserves some credit just for being alive and putting one foot in front of the other day in and day out considering what has happened to her. I don't think Sansa is stupid she has been smart enough to cover up and to be docile when defiance meant death but to the extent anyone sees her as a budding player who will yield real power like Tywin Lannister or even a clandestine manipulator like Littlefinger I don't see that, I see her as someone who is still being used as a pawn in LF's machinations and despite being used has developed a degree of affection for de facto captor, "Petyr".

I just wanted to point out that Tywin, whom you apparently consider a good player (as do I) died partly because on that toilet he was unable to look at the situation analytically, and looked at it emotionally, instead. It's, I believe, the only instance when we see him act emotionally, that's true, but Tywin is 50+, Sansa is 13. She tends to act emotionally rather than analytically when she's in danger, which she is more often than him, because he had put himself into a position of strength. How was she supposed to do that, up till this point?. She's been abandoned in King's Landing (Ned is not really a teacher of the Game of Thrones) at age 13, surrounded by people who could get something from manipulating and hurting her. I think we can cut her some slack here, therefore.

My argument was that her ambition was to be a queen's consort so it's actually not true that the other characters wanted or were willing to take (in Brienne's case) a position where they would have less power as was being said earlier in the thread.

She did have ambition. The highest she could hope for was queen consort. The highest Asha could was to be queen regnant. The latter wields more power.

ETA: To add I think Brienne could have potentially have more power as heir of Tarth because Sansa wanted to be a consort to a king who was unstable. Queens of theirs aren't powerful like the ones of the stable kings in this series. She couldn't have known that but it's not unusual for consorts to not know what kind of king they are getting/how he will treat them.

I think that depends. A queen consort, especially to a king like Joffrey, wields less power than a queen regnant, that's true. But an unstable king might become even more unstable or completely useless; it's possible for his queen to rule, then, in practice if not in name. Furthermore, if the queen in question is astute she can rule through her husband without him even realizing. I don't see Sansa doing that, but I wanted to bring forth the possibility. I agree Asha would probably have much more power than Sansa in this scenario, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Brienne would have more power. If a lady, even a head of house, insults the queen (even if the queen only imagines it), there will be hell to pay for. Sansa would have the power over Brienne's life and death - that means, IMO, that she has *more* power than her.

[Woman of War]

So there are those different positions in that thread:

- Sansa will be a player.

She will have considerable story impact by her own cunning, her newly acquired strength, her awesome competences. Some posters simply want it to happen because Sansa is their favorite character and they want to root for someone wo is important. Liking the Sansa she is at the moment is somehow not enough, they prefer the future projection of a would-be Sansa more than the character so far presented by the author.

And there is the argument by JuanmI82

If Sansa remains a bystander, forever manipulated by other people and never being able to execute actions to achieve her own goals, her story will be truth in life, but it will also forfeit any sort of arc or progression. And there is progression there, at least in her personal quest to grow a brain.

A RL life Sansa would realistically stay the nice but clueless girl she has always been but we are in a story with a story arc for each character. And Sansa's character would have no function in the books if her arc included no development towards an active plot impact, basically leading her story away from what could be expected from her as RL personality into fantasy country.

Here I have to somewhat agree. Every more or less main character shows a development, the villains just like the grey ones, and so will Sansa. This is an argument that makes me believe she might have some story impact by her own intiative.

And yet we do not know what kind of impact: Will she side with LF or learn his methods, by most posters seen as turn towads "darkness", will she do some move to "save the world" or simply try to save her life by her own efforts, for once not waiting for someone else to do it for her?

- There is the position that Sansa will stay a pawn. Some posters argue that those average people who are not special at all, who are just the girl next door without any great abilities or competences are entitled to exist in a book as well, that a character does not need to become awesome and yet readers may root for her. That Sansa is entitled to want nothing but peace and happiness and to stay away from trouble, even the trouble of ambition, as far as she can. Here the most positive ending for her would be to live a quiet life somewhere in oblivion but with puppies, reasonable wealth and many children.

- Yet even as pawn Sansa might have a huge story impact, there is no need for Martin to turn her into a "player" herself if he wants to give her a compelling arc. She can have a great story as being a most important piece on the board, the one the game evolves around and yet she herself can stay in the middle and not even realize being in the center of plot attention. There may be the one important information she passes about Baelish - or Timmet e.g. - , the small observation she has made without having any idea about its importance and yet it has a plot-turning impact. There is that notorious hairnet, Lysa's death, she could warn Tyrion that LF intends to trap him with a fake Tysha (fanfic so far), whatever. Small moves entirely within the range and competences of Sansa as observant yet not always informed and farsighted protagonist, without a 180 degree turn stretching credibility.

And that is imo the path Martin might choose to get her character into the center of attention, not turning her into superwoman but making her a vessel of plot deciding informations. She may though go through hell until then, her biggest achievement being survival until her moment of fame. And of course we have no idea how her story might end. Though I guess she is not meant to die as Evil Queen nor end as ruler. Maybe her biggest luck will be to lose her name and all claims, and finally someone will love her for herself because there is nothing else left to want from her. Alayne alone. Sansa sans grandeur.

[butterbumps!]

- Sansa will be a player.

She will have considerable story impact by her own cunning, her newly acquired strength, her awesome competences. Some posters simply want it to happen because Sansa is their favorite character and they want to root for someone wo is important. Liking the Sansa she is at the moment is somehow not enough, they prefer the future projection of a would-be Sansa more than the character so far presented by the author.

How is it that the default argument against the notion of Sansa's impacting her own future is derided as "rooting for their fave character," "wish fulfillment," or essentially "not understanding the Sansa we've seen"?

Those who hold the position that Sansa "will be a player" are readers who already acknowledge her skills at manipulation, influence, and growing awareness of being manipulated. They give endless examples of Sansa's growing skill and her goals in support of this, and argue that Sansa emerging as "a player" is a continuation of the character we've been reading.

You are badly mischaracterizing this line of argument and not truly speaking to the points this side of the argument is making.

And there is the argument by JuanmI82

A RL life Sansa would realistically stay the nice but clueless girl she has always been but we are in a story with a story arc for each character. And Sansa's character would have no function in the books if her arc included no development towards an active plot impact, basically leading her story away from what could be expected from her as RL personality into fantasy country.

Here I have to somewhat agree. Every more or less main character shows a development, the villains just like the grey ones, and so will Sansa. This is an argument that makes me believe she might have some story impact by her own intiative.

And yet we do not know what kind of impact: Will she side with LF or learn his methods, by most posters seen as turn towads "darkness", will she do some move to "save the world" or simply try to save her life by her own efforts, for once not waiting for someone else to do it for her?

If you believe that she will have an impact on the story by her own initiative then you are saying pretty much the same thing as those who advance the argument that you just denigrated above.

The difference being that you are unwilling to acknowledge Sansa's development to this end as a continuation of her previous development in terms of skill building, but instead, attribute such a manifestation as "necessary to the plot." This is nonsense. You want to portray Sansa as a "clueless girl" so badly, that in the event she does impact the story by her own initiative, you are setting it up to say that "it wasn't her" responsible, but "needed in the plot."

So first you deny Sansa from making an impact in her own right by honing skill, and then finish by conflating issues with distraction. Whether Sansa "descends into darkness" or "tries to save herself and/or the world," these are both options that presuppose actions made by her own accord. Whether her moves are morally bad or good still means she'd be playing.

Lastly, Sansa is the character who doesn't have a habit of relying on the kindness of strangers. She's the one who said no when Sandor tried to rescue her. I'm not sure where this impression is coming from, and it's not textually supported.

- There is the position that Sansa will stay a pawn. Some posters argue that those average people who are not special at all, who are just the girl next door without any great abilities or competences are entitled to exist in a book as well, that a character does not need to become awesome and yet readers may root for her. That Sansa is entitled to want nothing but peace and happiness and to stay away from trouble, even the trouble of ambition, as far as she can. Here the most positive ending for her would be to live a quiet life somewhere in oblivion but with puppies, reasonable wealth and many children.

Yea, and this was part of a really bizarre rant about "types of women," based exclusively on making unfortunate characterizations of "real life girls" and applying these misconceptions to ASOIAF. It was more or less an invective against femininity and beauty, adherence to the sad conventional "wisdom" that pretty girls must also be dumb and ordinary, and had no relevance to the text.

- Yet even as pawn Sansa might have a huge story impact, there is no need for Martin to turn her into a "player" herself if he wants to give her a compelling arc. She can have a great story as being a most important piece on the board, the one the game evolves around and yet she herself can stay in the middle and not even realize being in the center of plot attention. There may be the one important information she passes about Baelish - or Timmet e.g. - , the small observation she has made without having any idea about its importance and yet it has a plot-turning impact. There is that notorious hairnet, Lysa's death, she could warn Tyrion that LF intends to trap him with a fake Tysha (fanfic so far), whatever. Small moves entirely within the range and competences of Sansa as observant yet not always informed and farsighted protagonist, without a 180 degree turn stretching credibility.

A few issues are being conflated.

Inherently, a "compelling arc" has nothing to do with becoming a "player."

But the reason "player" keeps coming up in discussions about Sansa's arc is because this is the logical conclusion based on the growing skillset and development that we've seen. It would be "compelling" for her arc, because the groundwork is already there.

And that is imo the path Martin might choose to get her character into the center of attention, not turning her into superwoman but making her a vessel of plot deciding informations. She may though go through hell until then, her biggest achievement being survival until her moment of fame. And of course we have no idea how her story might end. Though I guess she is not meant to die as Evil Queen nor end as ruler. Maybe her biggest luck will be to lose her name and all claims, and finally someone will love her for herself because there is nothing else left to want from her. Alayne alone. Sansa sans grandeur.

And there it is again. You subscribe to this view because you believe Sansa can only make "small moves" in the future, will always remain a pawn, and worse, this view allows you to hold your belief that Sansa is mainly there to be a window to other more important characters: "a vessel of plot deciding informations." So again, it's not Sansa moving anything, but a combination of plot and proximity to more worthwhile characters.

[gougef]

When one discuss players and pawns, it is of direct connection to mention the game. One can be a pawn in one (the game of thrones is the one most referenced) and a player in another (Sansa's game of survival).

The mighty player Littlefinger may just be a pawn in someone else's game.

And, in the end, we all know that the games of thrones in NOT the most important game afoot. Sansa (being a Stark, of the North) may figure highly on that game.

EDIT: Cause it is quite obvious that she (through luck and skill) is that she is a survivor, which the real game will be for Westeros.

[juanml82]

When one discuss players and pawns, it is of direct connection to mention the game. One can be a pawn in one (the game of thrones is the one most referenced) and a player in another (Sansa's game of survival).

The mighty player Littlefinger may just be a pawn in someone else's game.

And, in the end, we all know that the games of thrones in NOT the most important game afoot. Sansa (being a Stark, of the North) may figure highly on that game.

EDIT: Cause it is quite obvious that she (through luck and skill) is that she is a survivor, which the real game will be for Westeros.

That's moving the goal posts. The "Game" is the "Game of Thrones". Now, there are other arcs, in which characters move the action forward and may or may not be interlinked with the Games of Thrones. The war against the White Walkers is one example of an interlinked arc. Arya's journey is, so far, unrelated to the Game and we can't consider Arya a player except for the brief episode of weasel soup.

Sansa is not a player. Even more, Sansa's life wasn't endangered until the PW. And even then, she's hardly moving the action forward. By AFFC she's just following LF's orders. Her other "major" actions prior to the PW are acts she quickly recognizes as mistakes and aren't done to achieve any political goal at all (saving Dontos, not kneeling at her wedding, blurting about Joffrey to the QoT) or actions in which she faces little, if any, opposition and don't present much of a risk to her once they are assimilated (going to "pray" at the Godswood).

To see Sansa moving the plot forward, we have to go into AGOT, in which she takes a more active, if mostly unopposed, role in attempting to achieve her objective of becoming Joffrey's wife. That naive and dreamy character from AGOT could conceivable be thought as a minor player in the Game of Thrones (who fails badly, but that's not the point). But after she takes the Hound advice and tries to avoid angering Joffrey, Sansa becomes a mostly passive character.

All this makes a lot of readers dislike her: the only time in which she takes a more active approach, she's doing it to act against Team Stark, and then she fades into general passiveness. And unlike Arya and Bran's apprenticeship, as well as Danny and Jon's on the job training (and Jon's earlier apprenticeship under Mormont, Halfhand and Aemon), Sansa's apprenticeship is not only under a villain, but it's only theoretical and has, so far, no practical "classes". I insist that has to change in the coming books, and she has to, somehow, graduate from Littlefinger's academy at some point, as Jon "graduated" from Aemon's "academy".

But let's not try to make the character bigger than it is in the books so far.

[gougef]

Even more, Sansa's life wasn't endangered until the PW.

That statement right there makes me want to disregard everything else you said.

Joffrey was a walling-talking timebomb until Tywin showed up. Sansa navigated a f*cking minefield the whole time she was in KL.

In my initial readings, I thought that Sansa was a spoiled little waste of space, but upon reviewing and reading discussions, I realizes that she survive KL taking little baby steps that she only safely could make. More impressive to me that make making major moves with major pieces.

However, she is not a player yet in the game of thrones, but she has a lot more capabilities than some give her credit for.

I can wait for her to shiv Littledick in the heart on their wedding night, so I can bath in all the tears that follows.

tdl;dr: You ser, I name you full of crap.

[butterbumps!]

That's moving the goal posts. The "Game" is the "Game of Thrones". Now, there are other arcs, in which characters move the action forward and may or may not be interlinked with the Games of Thrones. The war against the White Walkers is one example of an interlinked arc. Arya's journey is, so far, unrelated to the Game and we can't consider Arya a player except for the brief episode of weasel soup.

Actually, I think gougef was making a good point. How are you defining player, or perhaps more importantly, what does "playing" look like to you?

All this makes a lot of readers dislike her: the only time in which she takes a more active approach, she's doing it to act against Team Stark, and then she fades into general passiveness. And unlike Arya and Bran's apprenticeship, as well as Danny and Jon's on the job training (and Jon's earlier apprenticeship under Mormont, Halfhand and Aemon), Sansa's apprenticeship is not only under a villain, but it's only theoretical and has, so far, no practical "classes". I insist that has to change in the coming books, and she has to, somehow, graduate from Littlefinger's academy at some point, as Jon "graduated" from Aemon's "academy".

But let's not try to make the character bigger than it is in the books so far.

Why are you negating her previous actions? Why do you accept Bran and Arya's training, but not Sansa's? Sansa's been "training" "on the job" from the moment she arrives in KL. She's imprisoned at court; this is her classroom. Until LF, she doesn't have a direct tutor, but she has been at "Player's University" this whole time. Negotiating through this to enable her survival is a form of gameplay. LF is basically putting what she's already been observing into perspective-- he's reframing what she already knows from having been a witness at court.

[gougef]

Actually, I think gougef was making a good point. How are you defining player, or perhaps more importantly, what does "playing" look like to you?

Why are you negating her previous actions? Why do you accept Bran and Arya's training, but not Sansa's? Sansa's been "training" "on the job" from the moment she arrives in KL. She's imprisoned at court; this is her classroom. Until LF, she doesn't have a direct tutor, but she has been at "Player's University" this whole time. Negotiating through this to enable her survival is a form of gameplay. LF is basically putting what she's already been observing into perspective-- he's reframing what she already knows from having been a witness at court.

:agree:

Sansa basically went from the Pee-wee league to play major league ball OVERNIGHT and survived. Got to count for something.

[Winter's Knight]

Bumps, Sansa's been training since well before KL though. We see her manipulating Joff's anger as early as the Trident in GoT, where she soothes him and guesses Renly's identity.

She uses the same trick in Clash when she saves Dontos.

Furthermore she certainly manages to conceal her actual feelings rather well,considering that Tyrion-who's been living with her for some months, and who saw firsthand what she suffered from Joff and who is shown as being so adept with his Sherlock scans in Dance, was unable to see that she was plotting escape under his nose.

I wish I could stress this more but Sansa, as a captive in KL, watched 24/7 by both guards and servants, managed to avoid all suspicion for well over a year before she escaped by putting up a pious, meek front and presenting herself as a little girl too scared to be seen as treasonous to do anything.

Y'know that trick LF uses, of appearing harmless and beneath your notice that everyone swoons over? Yeah, twelve year old Sansa's got that down pat.

[gougef]

Bumps, Sansa's been training since well before KL though. We see her manipulating Joff's anger as early as the Trident in GoT, where she soothes him and guesses Renly's identity.

She uses the same trick in Clash when she saves Dontos.

Furthermore she certainly manages to conceal her actual feelings rather well,considering that Tyrion-who's been living with her for some months, and who saw firsthand what she suffered from Joff and who is shown as being so adept with his Sherlock scans in Dance, was unable to see that she was plotting escape under his nose.

I wish I could stress this more but Sansa, as a captive in KL, watched 24/7 by both guards and servants, managed to avoid all suspicion for well over a year before she escaped by putting up a pious, meek front and presenting herself as a little girl too scared to be seen as treasonous to do anything.

Y'know that trick LF uses, of appearing harmless and beneath your notice that everyone swoons over? Yeah, twelve year old Sansa's got that down pat.

Seems few realize and many discount the "lady" training she received as a child which saved her. Arya, who seemed to discount anything with the "lady" training, would surely not have survived KL, but was perfectly suited to survive in the wild has the wild wolf. Manners was Sansa's armor and she wore it well. It is amazing the restraint Sansa showed during her on-the-job training.

[butterbumps!]

Bumps, Sansa's been training since well before KL though. We see her manipulating Joff's anger as early as the Trident in GoT, where she soothes him and guesses Renly's identity.

I agree, WK. The reason I said "since KL" is because this is when she becomes an observer to intrigue and sees the underbelly of what the game of thrones entails.

Broadly speaking, she was trained for "the game of thrones' since birth; courtesy, the arts, courtly matters, refinement are all part of a lady's training to "win the game." At the risk of being overly reductive, she was raised to believe that by being studious and disciplined in her training, that she'd rise to the best possible position within society by virtue of her own excellence in these areas. She was an overachiever to the extent that she thought following these "rules" to the fullest would afford her the highest rewards possible.

The framework of this changes most profoundly once Ned's beheaded. She starts realizing that all these skills she's cultivated do not work toward a rewarding end on their own merit, and can even be turned against her. Rather than using these skills for social advancement, they become a form of self-protection (even extending them to shield others at times).

So yes, while she was always trained for the thrones game, KL is when she starts conceiving of the game differently-- it's not merit, or excellence in respected arts as she once thought, and she uses her skills more as a shield than for any sort of advancement or expectation of recognition.

That's more what I wanted to highlight-- that the concept of the "game" more in line with what LF will speak to starts emerging when she comes to KL. It's these "on the job" lessons in intrigue she "audits" for about 2 years until she receives formal tutelage.

[Darksnider05]

:agree:

Sansa basically went from the Pee-wee league to play major league ball OVERNIGHT and survived. Got to count for something.

Her feats name them what has she accomplished? Who has she toppled what schemes to her freedom has she accomplished?

Has she made a meaningful impact on anything anywhere intentionally?

[gougef]

Her feats name them what has she accomplished? Who has she toppled what schemes to her freedom has she accomplished?

Has she made a meaningful impact on anything anywhere intentionally?

If I was dropped into the ring with a UFC fighter and survived, that is a quite an accomplishment. She was dropped into a den of vipers and survived into someone could help her out. The things that you are babbling about will come about in the future. And where did I argue she is a player NOW in the GoT. I am stating that she has been game-playing just not the GoT, YET.

[Silverin]

And there is the argument by JuanmI82

A RL life Sansa would realistically stay the nice but clueless girl she has always been.

What kind of RL you are talking about?

That is not real life. Even someone who is not that smart won't be cluless all their life. No one would stay cluless after the experience Sansa had gone through...

Of course there are snobbish "intellectuals" who like to refer other people as stupid, and oh so clueless because that way they feel better about themself, they like to look down on others, and label them thus as less than them, so they can feel superior, but often those "clueless" people are actually way wiser than them.

And being naive time to time is not being clueless. Even Cat, tyrion, Doran etc are naive time to time when it comes to their hopes.

- Yet even as pawn Sansa might have a huge story impact, there is no need for Martin to turn her into a "player" herself if he wants to give her a compelling arc. She can have a great story as being a most important piece on the board, the one the game evolves around and yet she herself can stay in the middle and not even realize being in the center of plot attention. There may be the one important information she passes about Baelish - or Timmet e.g. - , the small observation she has made without having any idea about its importance and yet it has a plot-turning impact. There is that notorious hairnet, Lysa's death, she could warn Tyrion that LF intends to trap him with a fake Tysha (fanfic so far), whatever. Small moves entirely within the range and competences of Sansa as observant yet not always informed and farsighted protagonist, without a 180 degree turn stretching credibility.

In these scenarios she wouldn't be a pawn. A pawn is someone who is moved by others. If she acts on her own, she won't be a pawn... She wouldn't be a genius player (I don't think she ever will).

You really don't want to call her anything but a prop for the story of others, do you?

[juanml82]

That statement right there makes me want to disregard everything else you said.

Joffrey was a walling-talking timebomb until Tywin showed up. Sansa navigated a f*cking minefield the whole time she was in KL.

In my initial readings, I thought that Sansa was a spoiled little waste of space, but upon reviewing and reading discussions, I realizes that she survive KL taking little baby steps that she only safely could make. More impressive to me that make making major moves with major pieces.

However, she is not a player yet in the game of thrones, but she has a lot more capabilities than some give her credit for.

I can wait for her to shiv Littledick in the heart on their wedding night, so I can bath in all the tears that follows.

tdl;dr: You ser, I name you full of crap.

Neither Cersei nor Tyrion would let Joffrey kill Sansa while Jaime was a hostage. Joffrey could have been even worse to her and she could have suffered even more. But she was going to survive.

Actually, I think gougef was making a good point. How are you defining player, or perhaps more importantly, what does "playing" look like to you?

Why are you negating her previous actions? Why do you accept Bran and Arya's training, but not Sansa's? Sansa's been "training" "on the job" from the moment she arrives in KL. She's imprisoned at court; this is her classroom. Until LF, she doesn't have a direct tutor, but she has been at "Player's University" this whole time. Negotiating through this to enable her survival is a form of gameplay. LF is basically putting what she's already been observing into perspective-- he's reframing what she already knows from having been a witness at court.

I'd say 'Player' is someone who's acting to impose his or her agenda in the realm's politics. Sansa does a bit of that in AGOT, when she acts to make herself the future Queen. But after Ned's death, she doesn't try to steer the realm in the direction she wants. Which is understandable, given the situation she's in.

As for training before the PW well, yes, she has been mentored by Cersei and the Hound, and has been progressively learning. She still has to do something practical with the knowledge in the field of steering the realm in a certain direction. I mean, as a comparison, we could say that cleaning up the dead is part of Arya's training, but the real practical test is the killing of the insurance man. Sansa hasn't, yet, been given such a test.