Sansa Stark

[aceluby]

I think all these arguments about Sansa being a player ignore the #1 reason she survived KL. Her last name. That's really it and had Arya been in KL she would have survived as well, though admittedly probably in a dungeon instead of a tower, but a prison is a prison. And then when you look at the whole Ser Dontos episode (her big defining moment as a player), it was driven by a damn song. No different than when she thought Joffrey was going to be this super awesome husband because of the songs. Now she's in the Vale, can't tell anyone who she is, is being manipulated by LF (yet again), and is basically a prisoner (yet again). Her arc can definitely go in the way of being a player, it's possible, but almost nothing she has done so far indicates that she has ambition in actually being a player in the game outside of saving her own skin. She's a scared girl who just wants to go home.

[juanml82]

I think all these arguments about Sansa being a player ignore the #1 reason she survived KL. Her last name. That's really it and had Arya been in KL she would have survived as well, though admittedly probably in a dungeon instead of a tower, but a prison is a prison. And then when you look at the whole Ser Dontos episode (her big defining moment as a player), it was driven by a damn song. No different than when she thought Joffrey was going to be this super awesome husband because of the songs. Now she's in the Vale, can't tell anyone who she is, is being manipulated by LF (yet again), and is basically a prisoner (yet again). Her arc can definitely go in the way of being a player, it's possible, but almost nothing she has done so far indicates that she has ambition in actually being a player in the game outside of saving her own skin. She's a scared girl who just wants to go home.

Agreed. I'll just refer to Viserys wisdom, though

Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. “I don’t want to be his queen,” she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. “Please, please, Viserys, I don’t want to, I want to go home.”

“Home!” He kept his voice low, but she could hear the fury in his tone. “How are we to go home, sweet sister? They took our home from us!” He drew her into the shadows, out of sight, his fingers digging into her skin. “How are we to go home?” he repeated, meaning King’s Landing, and Dragonstone, and all the realm they had lost.

Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio’s estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him. His fingers dug hard into her arm, demanding an answer. “I don’t know …” she said at last, her voice breaking. Tears welled in her eyes.

“I do,” he said sharply. “We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo’s army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will.” He smiled at her. “I’d let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying.”

You may replace Viserys with LF, Daennerys with Sansa, Drogo with Harry the Heir and King's Landing with Winterfell. It's a similar situation, although probably likely to develop in very different fashion. Since she can't simply walk into Winterfell at the time (and maybe not even an Stannis victory, since Stannis probably considers her a rival in rallying the Northern Lords), the need for an army might drive her to influence politics so she can go home.

[butterbumps!]

Thanks for clarifying-- this really helps me see whether we're even really disagreeing.

I'd say 'Player' is someone who's acting to impose his or her agenda in the realm's politics. Sansa does a bit of that in AGOT, when she acts to make herself the future Queen. But after Ned's death, she doesn't try to steer the realm in the direction she wants. Which is understandable, given the situation she's in.

Ok, by the definition of "player" as someone influencing one's agenda in the realm's politics, I agree that this is not Sansa's story, but with an important catch.

Though I don't believe her goal post-Ned is to be a ruler any longer, or create policy in the way you're describing, I do think that her playing for her own survival does influence the realm's politics. If her main goal has been survival, reuniting with her family and returning home, these all impact the shape of the realm because of her recognition as a political entity.

Now, I agree with you that there is a major difference between making moves for individual, apolitical motivations versus making moves for political ends; one can impact the political game without intending to impact it as politics.

Here's the catch for me; her pursuit of apolitical ends invariably intersects with the politics of the realm as a whole, whether the issue is returning home, simply escaping, or being married to Willas. There's a point-- just around the time she's married to Tyrion-- that she starts grasping how intersectional her private, apolitical goals are to the politics of the realm.

This realization becomes more developed and clear in her mind from that point to the end of her FFC. Whereas previously, she wanted to escape and retreat from the political game, she starts realizing that n order to achieve those personal "apolitical" goals, she has to work from the greater political context. This is one of the things LF reframes for her-- that achieving a desired goal (whatever it may be) has to happen from the top. So she's already seen the interconnection, but he drives this point home.

To make a long story short: I think Sansa no longer wanted political rewards as an end, and used her skills to avoid further harm with the hope of escaping from the political game. During aSoS, she realizes that politics are inescapable from her apolitical goals. By the time she's in the Eyrie, she starts realizing that politics may be the means to the "apolitical" ends she wants (I used " " to clarify that while rebuilding Winterfell is inherently political, for example, the reason she wants this is not for political ends or necessarily about power).

As for training before the PW well, yes, she has been mentored by Cersei and the Hound, and has been progressively learning. She still has to do something practical with the knowledge in the field of steering the realm in a certain direction. I mean, as a comparison, we could say that cleaning up the dead is part of Arya's training, but the real practical test is the killing of the insurance man. Sansa hasn't, yet, been given such a test.

I think you might be defining "training" too narrowly. We don't learn exclusively through direct lessons with a tutor; observation and experience are no less "lessons."

For the 2 years she's been in KL, a part of and observing court, she's been getting an education on intrigue, gaining insight on the other players, and employing her own defenses against them all. It's kind of like she's been "auditing" a class for two years-- not being given direct instruction framed as instruction, but exposed to the concepts and principles of the subject with hands-on application.

LF's tutelage is really more about organizing and reframing all those lessons she's already taken from having been at court all this while. A lot of what he says is putting a new perspective on the way the game works. When you look at their lessons, it's why she's able to answer a lot of political "cause-effect" questions he poses, and why she asks pretty insightful questions about why he's making particular moves that go against the conventional way she's witnessed the game being played.

[ARYa_Nym]

I just wanted to point out that Tywin, whom you apparently consider a good player (as do I) died partly because on that toilet he was unable to look at the situation analytically, and looked at it emotionally, instead. It's, I believe, the only instance when we see him act emotionally, that's true, but Tywin is 50+, Sansa is 13. She tends to act emotionally rather than analytically when she's in danger, which she is more often than him, because he had put himself into a position of strength. How was she supposed to do that, up till this point?. She's been abandoned in King's Landing (Ned is not really a teacher of the Game of Thrones) at age 13, surrounded by people who could get something from manipulating and hurting her. I think we can cut her some slack here, therefore.

I think that depends. A queen consort, especially to a king like Joffrey, wields less power than a queen regnant, that's true. But an unstable king might become even more unstable or completely useless; it's possible for his queen to rule, then, in practice if not in name. Furthermore, if the queen in question is astute she can rule through her husband without him even realizing. I don't see Sansa doing that, but I wanted to bring forth the possibility. I agree Asha would probably have much more power than Sansa in this scenario, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Brienne would have more power. If a lady, even a head of house, insults the queen (even if the queen only imagines it), there will be hell to pay for. Sansa would have the power over Brienne's life and death - that means, IMO, that she has *more* power than her.

Ugh, I had to rewrite this.

Based on the books it seems that the more unstable they are the worse it is for the queen.

Things were better for Rhaella before his fits became too frequent. He also imprisoned the next queen to be, Elia.

I don't think that the queen would be regent. The king would be passed over for the next in line. In this case it would be Tommen. Rhaegar possible wanted to call a Great Council when he told Jamie that things would change. The council passed over Aerion's line because of his instability.

The unstable kings can also go a long time unchecked. Maegor wasn't exactly unstable but something wasn't right for him. No queen of his was able to prevent him from killing them. Baelor's sisters never gained power until they married someone else who wasn't king like in Elaena's case. Rhaella only got brief reprieve when Aerys sent her away.

Dany wasn't married to Viserys and he wasn't king but as he got older he seemed to get more unstable and abusive towards her. If she had been married to him like she was supposed to in a normal circumstance it would have been a nightmare for her.

Brienne would exercise more power in her daily life because kings and queens don't see most of their subjects. Ruling in Tarth she wouldn't have either of them overseeing her. A queen consort has to deal with her king every day. Rhaella or Sansa had she been queen would be exercising less power in their daily lives. There was a comparison over quality of life earlier in the thread.

I don't think what Margaery did was normal. The Tyrells dodged a bullet and were able to profit by Margaery marrying both kings. I don't think Sansa would have been able to marry Tommen as well since what the Tyrells did was abnormal and mostly due to the circumstance.

[DormeDwayne]

@ ARYa_Nym,

You're probably right about how dangerous and bad life would be for a wife of an unhinged king. Also, I didn't realize you meant power to control their daily lives when comparing Brienne and Sansa's respective position. In this context you're absolutely right. I focussed on their hierarchical position instead.

My only problem is with this:

I don't think that the queen would be regent. The king would be passed over for the next in line. In this case it would be Tommen. Rhaegar possible wanted to call a Great Council when he told Jamie that things would change. The council passed over Aerion's line because of his instability.

I don't think I understand. When Joffrey dies, Cersei becomes Regent, not Tommen, who's still underage. If you meant the same sitation but with both Joffrey and Tommen of age then the regency position probably depends. In that case if Joffrey left no issue there'd be no regency, of course, and the throne would simply pass to Tommen; but if Joffrey had underage children the regency could go to Tommen, Joffrey's wife, Joffrey's mother or even another influential figure, it really depends on the situation and the support each individual has and whether they have any desire to be Regent. At least that's how I think it works. Let's say Tommen really loved and respected his mother - I can see him support his mother's regency instead taking power himself, probably thinking along the lines of "she's much more experienced and I could still learn so much from observing her..." It really depends on the queen mother and her relationship with her children, IMO.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think I understand. When Joffrey dies, Cersei becomes Regent, not Tommen, who's still underage. If you meant the same sitation but with both Joffrey and Tommen of age then the regency position probably depends. In that case if Joffrey left no issue there'd be no regency, of course, and the throne would simply pass to Tommen; but if Joffrey had underage children the regency could go to Tommen, Joffrey's wife, Joffrey's mother or even another influential figure, it really depends on the situation and the support each individual has and whether they have any desire to be Regent. At least that's how I think it works. Let's say Tommen really loved and respected his mother - I can see him support his mother's regency instead taking power himself, probably thinking along the lines of "she's much more experienced and I could still learn so much from observing her..." It really depends on the queen mother and her relationship with her children, IMO.

I was referring to the point of if the king becomes too unstable the queen consort wouldn't rule in his place. In the books they either die, are killed, or a Great Council is called. In the latter case there will be votes so the king has to give up his right to rule.

[Cruella]

Why would they die, or be killed?

Next logical heir would be their son, and I don't see why he would be overlooked. A king would be locked up somewhere (not sure if they have actual convents in Westeros) and the queen would be in Cersei's position.

If a queen is a mother of a future king, I can definitely see her ruling, or her lovers, or whoever managed to gain influence over her, if she's a weak queen. Think She-wolf of France, or Isabeau of Bavaria, who's husband was too mad to rule. There were issues with both, but they weren't just sitting quietly at convent for sure, and their favor played big part in who was doing actual ruling. And we all know what happened with Catherine the Great - though that's a bit out of there for Westeros I suppose.

[ARYa_Nym]

Baelor died. Aerys was killed and so was Joffrey. As for passed over Aerion was on those grounds. Rhaegar was likely going to use that as a precedent to get rid of Aerys. He had to fight a war first then call a Great Council.

ETA: If you're like Joffrey or Viserys chances are you're going to do something/act a certain way to get yourself killed. Neither were smart enough to last as long as Aerion. But he like Baelor was responsible for his own death due to their insanity provided the rumors that Baelor was actually killed by Viserys II are wrong.

[Queen Alienor]

I've read multiple times that becoming Queen Regent was the best Sansa could have archived, and I agree. But I don't think that was what Sansa thought about. She was 11 and she more or less expecting to ride of into the sunset with her handsome Prince Charming and live happily ever after. She did not really have any idea of what would life have been for her if she had become queen. That's absolutely okay, she was 11, a child. Much like Arya she did not really have plans for her life. She trusted her parents and all the other persons in authority to do whats best for her. That was naive, but understandable, as she'd never known anything else.

[Ludd]

Sansa at 11 dreamed of being a Princess and Queen but it mostly involved tourneys and feasts and songs. She was not ONE WHIT interested in politics and any power she sought was over Arya and maybe Bran, Rickon and Jon. She was just an 11 year old girl, with a head full of stories.

I rather think Ned and Catelyn overprotected her as she did seem more naive than most high born girls, but she had grown in the safe North so perhaps this was understandable.

Despite the many Sansa fan club members, I cannot see she has done or even learned much. LIKE ARYA she has drifted, buffeted by circumstances, looking vainly for a pack. Up until she reached the Eyrie and had the altercation with Lyssa, Sansa has been a naive child, manipulated by others. Unlike Arya she has made no attempt at all to improve her circumstances. However when in a crisis ie the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Sansa shows potential as a leader and a very good Queen.

Now at the Eyrie Sansa has HAD to grow. Effectively she has become a mother to Sweet Robin, and as for MOST women and many men, this responsibility has made her grow as a person.

I am not sure whether Sansa will become a political genius like LF. Seems a bit far fetched, however she certainly is learning to trust no one which is a good step along the way.

[butterbumps!]

Unlike Arya she has made no attempt at all to improve her circumstances.

Out of interest, what are you seeing as Arya's dynamic improvements versus Sansa's stagnation?

I am not sure whether Sansa will become a political genius like LF. Seems a bit far fetched, however she certainly is learning to trust no one which is a good step along the way.

The only posters who have been using terms like "political genius" are the ones arguing that Sansa is not going to be one.

[Queen Alienor]

Despite the many Sansa fan club members, I cannot see she has done or even learned much. LIKE ARYA she has drifted, buffeted by circumstances, looking vainly for a pack. Up until she reached the Eyrie and had the altercation with Lyssa, Sansa has been a naive child, manipulated by others. Unlike Arya she has made no attempt at all to improve her circumstances. However when in a crisis ie the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Sansa shows potential as a leader and a very good Queen.

I actually thought that in ACOK and ASOS Sansa showed quite a bit growth, mostly by growing wary of everyone and losing her naivety. She shows that for example when she takes a knife to the meeting with Dontos and when her initial reaction to Margerys invitation is worry what Margery might intend by showing her kindness. AGOT Sansa would have never questioned anybody.

[Florina Laufeyson]

She will have considerable story impact by her own cunning, her newly acquired strength, her awesome competences. Some posters simply want it to happen because Sansa is their favorite character and they want to root for someone wo is important. Liking the Sansa she is at the moment is somehow not enough, they prefer the future projection of a would-be Sansa more than the character so far presented by the author.

:bs:

Sansa is not my favorite character. Shes not even in the Top 5. So why do i see Sansa doing something awesome in the future?

Simple.

GRRM crafted a character who fills the shoes of your basic Princess Classic/Distressed Damsel tropes. Then proceeds to explore what this kind of character would do, react to, think, and feel in a world like this. In other words, he is speaking about agency with Sansa's arc. Sansa is really the only female POV who has little to no personal agency throughout the course of the series. Every other female character with a POV has a measure of agency. Dany takes hers by the reigns and rides it hard and loud. Catelyn exercises her agency as a Lady of a very prominent house to get to the bottom of political and family problems. Brienne uses her agency to be something resembling a knight. Arya uses her agency to be on the run and even angsts when her agency is removed. (See Harrenhal) Cersei uses her agency (which she claims isnt there lol) to make broad political strokes. Asha uses hers to try to win the Iron Islands to her cause. Arianne uses hers to manipulate and attempt to make a move.

Sansa has no real agency. She is shunted this way and that and is in constant captivity. Even now, Sansa isnt even her own person anymore because her agency is removed and she is at the mercy of Littlefinger. Sansa is at the mercy of someone throughout the series. Its not difficult to see what GRRM is going to do with this character. Show her taking her own agency and use it. Given how subtle Sansa's actions and thought processes are, one can assume that she will exercise her agency in an equally subtle manner. Princess Classic Gets Serious. Sansa doesnt have to pick up a sword, she doesnt have to get into bed with someone, she doesnt even have to be cruel. All she needs to do is find her agency and use it in her own way.

"I will make them love me."

[The Mother of The Others]

Having an agency helps find you new clients, sure, but they charge the customers more so that the agency can take its cut off the top. That ultimately doesn't benefit the girl, it's just classier pimping. She should focus on building name recognition while she's with the agency and then dump them, taking her clients with her. Then she can charge whatever she wants, and the money goes to her. That's why I'm hoping Sansa becomes an Independent, and doesn't go the agency route, or at least not for the long term.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Having an agency helps find you new clients, sure, but they charge the customers more so that the agency can take its cut off the top. That ultimately doesn't benefit the girl, it's just classier pimping. She should focus on building name recognition while she's with the agency and then dump them, taking her clients with her. Then she can charge whatever she wants, and the money goes to her. That's why I'm hoping Sansa becomes an Independent, and doesn't go the agency route, or at least not for the long term.

Oh..

Har har.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I think that depends. A queen consort, especially to a king like Joffrey, wields less power than a queen regnant, that's true. But an unstable king might become even more unstable or completely useless; it's possible for his queen to rule, then, in practice if not in name. Furthermore, if the queen in question is astute she can rule through her husband without him even realizing. I don't see Sansa doing that, but I wanted to bring forth the possibility.

I think it more likely that the small council would govern an unstable king, those kind of men like ruling behind the scenes with a puppet figure head anyway. The queen would not be a major obstacle since they would manipulate her with whatever ever it takes or if she proves to difficult then she is easily replaced. If Sansa had married Joffery she would still be treated no better than the hostage she was.

Well, just as an example, I really feel the only reason Cersei is regent - or at least wielding the power - is that she has the largest martial backing with - a known to be ruthless - and wealthy father in command. Cersei even looses that 'full control' when Tywin shows up in KL acting as the Hand and shakily maintains it after his death by being one of his heirs. I think without that succor Cersei might find herself in some very unpleasant situations that maybe could have even been similar to what Sansa went through. Look what happened to her even with that support - the Walk of Shame.

Otherwise the person who wanted to control the king that had the strongest martial support would take control of the regency and the small council or they would back a new king of their choosing. I see no reason why it would not be the same for the queen consort of a mad king, look what happened with the Mad King - dethroned and replaced, with his queen and heirs condemned to death, by the strongest martially aided candidate. All of this is why the lioness fears the roses.

I'd say 'Player' is someone who's acting to impose his or her agenda in the realm's politics. Sansa does a bit of that in AGOT, when she acts to make herself the future Queen. But after Ned's death, she doesn't try to steer the realm in the direction she wants. Which is understandable, given the situation she's in.

As for training before the PW well, yes, she has been mentored by Cersei and the Hound, and has been progressively learning. She still has to do something practical with the knowledge in the field of steering the realm in a certain direction. I mean, as a comparison, we could say that cleaning up the dead is part of Arya's training, but the real practical test is the killing of the insurance man. Sansa hasn't, yet, been given such a test.

I suspect that Sansa's "test" will be Sweetrobin - Sansa will either have a hand in his death or she will be his salvation and whichever way the coin lands it will be a weighty political action - which could be an end to Littlefinger as well. Once Sansa makes her move there will be no turning back and she will need to remain active politically or it will end her. I believe Harry the Heir, and Sansa's decision to marry or not, will be a major factor here as well but I find it more difficult to map out - maybe it will just be the catalyst.

If Sweetrobin mysteriously dies it will be because Sansa decided it would be to her benefit politically. Taking out and replacing the Lord Paramount and Defender of the Vale is a major political stroke anyway you slice it. We all know the Vale has a sizable, well fed and well rested army itching to see some action with a side of revenge for the Starks. However, I don't see this storyline playing out, it is not Sansa's style. It would be the 'hard choice' or the 'easy road' or going to the 'dark side' of the first cruel step getting Sansa where she needs to be. This route would be Sansa's first thrust to imposing her agenda in the realm of politics while taking out a major piece.

If Sansa chooses to save Sweetrobin because it is the right thing to do and she can not bring herself to be cold-hearted it may even be more of a sweeping blow - it is a major move against Littlefinger. I think it likely LF would die, it's the 'smart choice', Sansa does not need him being hostile towards her at the starting gate when she finally takes the reigns in her hands. Sansa will utilize her alliance with the Lord of the Vale to her personal advantage. Sansa's first move will be against one of the major players, whether he lives or not, and it is an action to impose her desires politically while involving and protecting a key piece.

Arya's 'real test' involved murder and I believe Sansa's 'real test' will too - either Sweetrobin or Littlefinger must die.

(This will be when the maid slays the giant in a castle built of snow - Sansa's snow castle, that LF helped build, that Sweetrobin's giant destroyed was a role reversal dry run - otherwise the prophecy would be too obscure.)

[ugashep]

This is random but just in case their are any cross over Star Wars fans out there, reading this thread reminds me of that original Star Wars Rap:

Luke: "Yoda, how come you being a playa hata, you know I still must confront Lord Vader".

Yoda: "But Luke, not ready are you."

Luke: "But there's a city in the clouds where they're keeping my crew."

Bottom line is, I guess is a Sansa's gotta do what a Sansa's gotta do.

[E-Ro]

Lol this thread jumped the shark.

[gougef]

Lol this thread jumped the shark.

Don't you mean stark.

[Le Cygne]

Oh lord, let's not go there.

What I want to see is the Stark (Sansa) jump someone. Of her choice.