Sansa Stark

[butterbumps!]

And god knows GRRM isn't the type.of.writer to frustrate his reader's expectations of their favourite character doing awesome, important, heroic things...

The idea of Sansa becoming a shrewd politician is just hilarious. Although, given the precedents, I don't doubt there will be people to call her just that as soon as she makes any attempt at anything at all. Hell, if she becomes like Lysa Arryn (which would actually make a lot of sense) she'll be called a genius for staying safe in the Eyrie.

I dunno guys, IMO if you think your pet fave character has to become great and do important stuff for the story to make sense, you haven't been paying attention.

Since I haven't been paying attention, I missed in what ways Sansa turning into Lysa would make sense. Would you mind walking me through that?

Also, I'm wondering if "great and powerful things" might need to become a bit more defined. I'd say that her goal is to secure Winterfell and the Starks, whether by her own devices (as she assumes it would be in that she believes she's the last Stark), or as part of a larger cooperative. At the very least, I believe she wants to accomplish a scenario in which she (and potentially others) cease being playthings for other's use-- not to mention, secure her own safety. Is this truly so laughable a prospect? Because in order to do any of this, she has to play the game to some extent.

Further, while Sansa has much room for progress in honing her skillset, she has, in fact, played the game (increasingly successfully) within whatever measure she can in order to protect her own interests. So this is not some massive revelation that promises to occur; it's already happening and continuing to happen. Not seeing this might be a case of not paying attention, perhaps.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

And god knows GRRM isn't the type.of.writer to frustrate his reader's expectations of their favourite character doing awesome, important, heroic things...

The idea of Sansa becoming a shrewd politician is just hilarious. Although, given the precedents, I don't doubt there will be people to call her just that as soon as she makes any attempt at anything at all. Hell, if she becomes like Lysa Arryn (which would actually make a lot of sense) she'll be called a genius for staying safe in the Eyrie.

I dunno guys, IMO if you think your pet fave character has to become great and do important stuff for the story to make sense, you haven't been paying attention.

Are you considering four books of character development? There's actually a high chance for Sansa to become a shrewd politician. And why becoming Lysa Arryn makes more sense to you than her becoming a politician, considering what she's been learning, her skills and her ability shown on the Vale? I'd say the chance of Sansa becoming Lysa Arryn is as high as Jon never returning. For me, your proposition is hilarious.

IMO, just because you dislike a character, doesn't mean he won't be important and won't do important stuff for the story to make sense. If you think like that, then I'd say you haven't been paying attention.

[juanml82]

And god knows GRRM isn't the type.of.writer to frustrate his reader's expectations of their favourite character doing awesome, important, heroic things...

The idea of Sansa becoming a shrewd politician is just hilarious. Although, given the precedents, I don't doubt there will be people to call her just that as soon as she makes any attempt at anything at all. Hell, if she becomes like Lysa Arryn (which would actually make a lot of sense) she'll be called a genius for staying safe in the Eyrie.

I dunno guys, IMO if you think your pet fave character has to become great and do important stuff for the story to make sense, you haven't been paying attention.

Actually, the only character who falls in the first sentence is ADWD Danny. Otherwise, characters have done awesome, important and heroic things, even if they end in an early grave by the end. The point is that Sansa Stark isn't a real thirteen years old girl with her room filled with Justin Bieber posters or something. She's a fictional character. And if she doesn't get into politics and play a part in the reshaping of Westeros by the end of the series, then what was the point of her character? To only provide witness POVs, as an ultra long Areo Hotah character? To be hated by readers?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Good LORD this thread got ugly while i was away...

What is it about Sansa threads that seems to give people carte blanche to make these wild and unfortunate proclamations about "types" of girls/ women, and then make assertions on what a lady can and cannot do based on these judgment-laden "types"?

I guess further, what is it about these threads in particular that compel people to believe that one can only appreciate one Stark daughter at the exclusion of another? As in, why is a thread about Sansa's early prowess at courtesy (which yes, is a skill, among many others, that can be part of a "player's" toolbox) taking tangents down the "Arya is awesome, Sansa sucks" path?

I'm really kind of baffled why this happens. We have no shortage of Tyrion threads, and it's not like those suffer vitriol against Tyrion because "Jaime is more awesome and relatable!!!" (they suffer vitriol, but not because "omg Team Jaime likes his brother better")

Right? I just dont even anymore.

I mean come on, i think Victarion is a pathetic little worm, but im pretty sure hes going to something that has lasting effects on everyone else in the story. Sansa has greater focus, is one of our protagonists, and we've been watching her story for some time now. Its pretty clear shes going to fucking do something. Shes the Little Dude in the Kung Fu movies. Waiting...watching...learning..studying...then when the time is right...

BAM!

You dont have to like her, hell, i have a hard time getting in her head most of the time. But to deny her worth as a character is just silly.

[Ludd]

Sadly I think it likely that Sansa will hop into bed with LF, a cruel parody of the Lyanna Rhaegar story.

At this moment Sansa is just as much (indeed more so) than Arya. She realy BELIEVES she is Alayne. She thinks of LF as her father and we seen barely a shred of thinking about being a Stark. The closest she has is remembering Jon, whom she had not THOUGHT of for many months. Jeepers he is her BROTHER and if she had had an ounce of common sense she would have tried to get a message to him. Presumably there are ravens at the eyrie and Sansa might have got a message to Jon in secret or in some sort of code.

She COULD have written to the LC of the wall under some pretext or other - She could have asked LF to organise it for her - if he genuinely cared for her welfare he would alert her brother to her whereabouts.

For example a letter to the LC at the wall seeking information on the status or indeed EVEN as a prospective marriage prospect - ie LF is seeking a husband for his bastard daughter and had heard of Ned Stark's bastard. The query could be "has he taken his vows and is he an honourable lad etc. In the course of the letter Sansa would include some personal information that was in their common childhood, alerting Jon to who she was. Something about an irritating little girl known as horseface might do the job.

[Newstar]

Sadly I think it likely that Sansa will hop into bed with LF, a cruel parody of the Lyanna Rhaegar story.

Could be. There are parallels between Lyanna's story and the tale of the Stark daughter and Bael the Bard, and one parallel is that they both fell in love with their abductors and bore their bastard children. The same could happen with Sansa and Petyr "Bael"-ish ("Baelish" = like Bael?). They're already co-parenting Sweetrobin (speculated by some to be Littlefinger's biological child). Could this foreshadow Sansa and Littlefinger actually conceiving a child together, a child who (like Bael and the Stark daughter's child) will continue the Stark line when it's in danger of being wiped out?

It seems GRRM is all about cyclical repetition, children playing out their parents' dramas, people being caught up in the same destructive patterns again and again. For all the talk of Arya as the second coming of Lyanna, Sansa seems the far more likely of the two Stark sisters to share her fate. Doesn't mean she'll die in childbirth--the Stark daughter didn't--but I suppose if GRRM wants to get rid of another Stark, death by childbirth tragically evoking Lyanna's fate would do as well as anything.

Its pretty clear shes going to fucking do something.

Is anything "pretty clear" about how Sansa's arc will turn out? In a series full of plot twists, Sansa's storyline has a particularly strong tendency to zig where one thinks it will zag. Who predicted prior to ASOS that Sansa would marry Tyrion? Given that there's a supposedly controversial chapter coming up in TWOW, and given the news that her next chapter kicks off a new storyline for her, it seems very likely that there's going to be another zig coming up where a zag is anticipated.

I'd say that her goal is to secure Winterfell and the Starks

Based on what, exactly? She's shown precisely zero interest in returning to Winterfell in AFFC--even as a dreamy thought--let alone securing it, which implies some sort of strategic or political awareness with respect to obtaining Winterfell you know very well (or should know very well) is utterly lacking from Sansa's POVs. Her thoughts of Winterfell are not only few and far between but also purely nostalgic, firmly relegated to the past along with Sansa Stark for whom the "day is done" as opposed to placed within a future-oriented plan or strategy. Quite the opposite of what you're bizarrely implying. When POV characters in ASOIAF do have goals of the type you're trying to attribute to Sansa, it's painfully obvious. One doesn't have to go out on a limb to speculate and "I'd say," because it's perfectly clear, and of course, there's nothing like that with respect to Sansa as of the end of AFFC.

This is your imagined notion of Sansa as a grand strategist rather than based on anything in the text. You'd "say" what her goal is, but you can't produce any textual evidence to support it. The more important it is for you to frame Sansa in light of what you imagine her destiny will be, the further you stray from the text. If you stick to the text, rather than starting off from what you believe is Sansa's destiny as a grand player and working backwards to interpret the text in that light, I think you'll have a far more realistic grasp of Sansa's abilities and mindset, rather than falling into the trap of getting lost in the fog of your own fantasies about the character.

And really, such talk is doing Sansa a disservice, since the implication is that she's only worthy of our attention if she has this great destiny as a master player awaiting her. I say we appreciate Sansa for who she is--an unremarkable, average girl doing whatever she can to survive without the benefit of great intelligence, overwhelming martial prowess, magic, or whatever other superpowers readers wish to attribute to her (empathy queen, impenetrable courtesy armour, etc.)--rather than only valuing her for what she might never become.

At the very least, I believe she wants to accomplish a scenario in which she (and potentially others) cease being playthings for other's use-- not to mention, secure her own safety.

She doesn't want to be married off for her claim, true enough, but that doesn't translate into any sort of goal for her in the text, let alone your utterly baseless speculation that she has in mind some great vision for a future where she is no longer used. A preference is not the same thing as a goal, since one can have preferences that don't translate into a concrete goal one seeks to achieve. This is especially true in Sansa's case, where she doesn't translate her preferences into concrete goals. If anything, in ASOS, her preference not to be used for her claim was strong but it didn't in any way influence her behaviour with respect to the betrothal to Sweetrobin; she was put out by the idea but was prepared to go along with it (until called on the carpet by Lysa), much as Sansa has been put out by various things over the course of the books but has talked herself into going along with them. That's fine and all, but it's not the behaviour of someone with a plan to accomplish her goals. It's the behaviour of someone content to resign herself to others' plans for her, whatever her personal preferences might be, and to adjust her expectations accordingly. Even her supposed great moment of rejecting the Lannisters' plan for her by rejecting the marriage is in fact nothing more than falling back on another third party's plan for her, which also had aspects she disliked but went along with.

Let me put it this way. Suppose you're at a restaurant, and you order the cheesecake, which is your preferred dessert. You're then informed that they've run out of cheesecake for the night. Some people might decide they want the cheesecake and take steps to achieve it (bribe the chef, who knows?). Other people might just decide to order another dessert and make do, no matter how much they might prefer the cheesecake or might dislike the other options available; their preferences have no bearing on what they wind up eating. Sansa's pattern of behaviour over the books falls in the latter category. She absolutely has preferences, but those preferences don't seem to have any bearing on her actions. (Note that she doesn't think "I want to marry for love," only that "No one will ever marry me for love." This suggests resignation despite her preference: I want this thing, I'll never have it, ho hum.) Her preferences themselves are also highly malleable; she's more likely to adjust her preferences in the face of an external obstacle than she is to attempt to remove the obstacle. Because she's unable--by reason of circumstances, temperament, and, depending on whom you ask, lack of intelligence/creativity--to come up with her own plans, she is only able to exercise those preferences to the extent that she is offered options from third parties which happen to align with them (being offered an escape from King's Landing, for one). She would prefer not to be betrothed to Sweetrobin, but she agrees to it anyway. She would prefer Loras and not Willas, but she talks herself into liking the idea of marrying Willas. She would prefer not to have to masquerade as a bastard, but she agrees to it. And so on. Assuming, therefore, that Sansa's preferences--not to be married for her claim, or to be married at all--will translate into Sansa acting on those feelings to achieve a goal, when she hasn't acted in that way to date, and is in fact inclined to accept what's offered regardless of her feelings on the subject, is baffling.

[DormeDwayne]

At this moment Sansa is just as much (indeed more so) than Arya. She realy BELIEVES she is Alayne. She thinks of LF as her father and we seen barely a shred of thinking about being a Stark. The closest she has is remembering Jon, whom she had not THOUGHT of for many months. Jeepers he is her BROTHER and if she had had an ounce of common sense she would have tried to get a message to him. Presumably there are ravens at the eyrie and Sansa might have got a message to Jon in secret or in some sort of code.

She COULD have written to the LC of the wall under some pretext or other - She could have asked LF to organise it for her - if he genuinely cared for her welfare he would alert her brother to her whereabouts.

For example a letter to the LC at the wall seeking information on the status or indeed EVEN as a prospective marriage prospect - ie LF is seeking a husband for his bastard daughter and had heard of Ned Stark's bastard. The query could be "has he taken his vows and is he an honourable lad etc. In the course of the letter Sansa would include some personal information that was in their common childhood, alerting Jon to who she was. Something about an irritating little girl known as horseface might do the job.

I can't see this happening. First off, it is known that Jon is the Lord Commander - Sansa only hears it at the end of aFfC from Myranda Royce, but that means it is widely known, even if she is in the dark. A letter inquiring of the Lord Commander, which is known to be Jon Snow asking whether Jon Snow had already taken his vows sounds very unconvincing to me, especially sent by Littlefinger, who's supposed to be two steps in front of everyone. Secondly, what makes you think Littlefinger would allow Sansa to write to Jon? I feel it is in his interest to keep Sansa missing; it's preferable the whole Realm thinks her sailing across the Narrow Sea with her Lord Husband (=Tyrion). He could tell Sansa that and make it sound as if he's worried for her safety, even though he's in fact worried about losing his grip on his prize horse. And finally, what's the purpose of contacting Jon anyways? What can he do? Even if he weren't the Commander of the Night's Watch he cannot possibly help Sansa. He has no men who'd follow him to the Vale to rescue her, she has no way to arrange a ship that would take her to the Wall, Jon has no way of sending her transport to the Vale that could take her to the Wall, especially while she's on the Eyrie. It's completely pointless.

Now, I'm not saying Sansa realizes all this and is smart enough not to fall into the temptation and attempt to contact him. She might simply not think of it, not trust him, be afraid of Littlefinger, or be passive - we do not know. All I'm saying is that contacting Jon would mean the opposite of her having an ounce of common sense.

[Annara Snow]

Sadly I think it likely that Sansa will hop into bed with LF, a cruel parody of the Lyanna Rhaegar story.

How do you figure that? There is no similarity at all between Lyanna/Rhaegar and LF/Sansa. And Sansa has no sexual interest in LF - she's actually trying hard to ignore his obvious sexual interest, which only makes her uncomfortable, in order to try to think of him as her 'father'. While having a sexual fixation on someone else.

Could be. There are parallels between Lyanna's story and the tale of the Stark daughter and Bael the Bard, and one parallel is that they both fell in love with their abductors and bore their bastard children. The same could happen with Sansa and Petyr "Bael"-ish ("Baelish" = like Bael?).

Except they didn't - or at least Lyanna didn't, unless you believe in Robert's view of things, which I certainly don't. Lyanna was willful, as Ned pointed out, and had 'iron underneath', which Robert didn't know. And she clearly didn't like the idea of Robert, who would never stay faithful, as her husband. I think it's pretty clear she made her choice to run away with Rhaegar - which fits with the events described (the way she and Rhaegar presumably got to know each other during the tourney at Harenthal) and her characterization much, much better than some story about poor victim Lyanna suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Her brother Ned certainly didn't see her that way, and I think he would know.

And if there is any parallel that has something to do with LF, it's that he's trying to marry her to Harry, who sounds a bit like Robert, and I don't think Sansa will like it any better than Lyanna did. And that just further destroys that weird, non-existing LF/Rhaegar parallel.

Is anything "pretty clear" about how Sansa's arc will turn out? In a series full of plot twists, Sansa's storyline has a particularly strong tendency to zig where one thinks it will zag. Who predicted prior to ASOS that Sansa would marry Tyrion?

That had absolutely nothing to do with Sansa's characterization or what makes sense for her arc based on it. It's not like she chose to get married to Tyrion. Unwanted political bethrothals and marriages forced on Sansa were nothing new for her arc. And it was actually pretty easy to predict that the Lannisters were going to use her for her claim, which they had been doing since AGOT - which was the motive and the whole point of that marriage. Tyrion or Joffrey or Tommen or Lancel - it was always likely she'd be married to some Lannister or other. When Joffrey got engaged to Margaery, readers may have expected her to be bethrothed to Tommen, or maybe Lancel. The difference between ACOK and ASOS was that Tywin was actively planning Robb's imminent death, so Sansa's status as the heir of Winterfell he wanted Sansa married to someone who could consummate the marriage ASAP, and preferably get a child from her pretty soon as well.

If anything, in ASOS, her preference not to be used for her claim was strong but it didn't in any way influence her behaviour with respect to the betrothal to Sweetrobin; she was put out by the idea but was prepared to go along with it (until called on the carpet by Lysa), much as Sansa has been put out by various things over the course of the books but has talked herself into going along with them.

How do you figure she was prepared to "go along with it"? Because she didn't try to kill Lysa, or tried to kill Sweetrobin? Or perhaps steal Lothar's knife and run away into the wild to make her fortune among the clansmen and then fight off all who try to kidnap her and give her to the queen, or rape her first and then give her to the queen, until she makes her own way throughout Westeros to the Wall to meet Jon (we all know it's the easiest thing to do, even when you're not a 13-year old girl) - or some other equally ridiculous scenario that only happens in monstrously bad and unrealistic fiction?

She would prefer not to be betrothed to Sweetrobin, but she agrees to it anyway.

I must have missed the part where she agreed to be bethrothed to Sweetrobin. Could you point me to it?

Or are you trying to say she "agreed" to it the way she "agreed" to be married to Tyrion, or the way she was "agreeing" to be Joffrey's bethrothed during ACOK?

"Agreeing" presumes that a person has a choice. Sansa wasn't given one and Lysa was not asking her "Would you like to marry my son?", she was telling her she had to, because she was a "beggar now" (and one wanted for regicide) and she could turn her away if she didn't marry SR. You might as well say that a prisoner serving a sentence has "agreed" or "is going along with it". The bright side was that SR was 8 and she couldn't still be revealed as Sansa, which meant that she was in no imminent danger of that marriage for a few more years.

She would prefer not to have to masquerade as a bastard, but she agrees to it

Actually, she is enjoying her status as a "bastard" quite a bit.

[Lummel]

... Jeepers he is her BROTHER and if she had had an ounce of common sense she would have tried to get a message to him. Presumably there are ravens at the eyrie and Sansa might have got a message to Jon in secret or in some sort of code.

She COULD have written to the LC of the wall under some pretext or other - She could have asked LF to organise it for her - if he genuinely cared for her welfare he would alert her brother to her whereabouts.

For example a letter to the LC at the wall seeking information on the status or indeed EVEN as a prospective marriage prospect - ie LF is seeking a husband for his bastard daughter and had heard of Ned Stark's bastard. The query could be "has he taken his vows and is he an honourable lad etc. In the course of the letter Sansa would include some personal information that was in their common childhood, alerting Jon to who she was. Something about an irritating little girl known as horseface might do the job.

How? The ravens are not like a public phonebox, they are controlled by the maesters - Sansa can't send or receive a message without the maester's knowledge and assistance. There's aren't so many people in the Eyrie that she could get away with going in some disguise to send a message, nor is there anybody so far that she trusts intimately to send some message on her behalf.

She doesn't get to hear that Jon is Lord Commander until she comes down from the Eyrie and she only hears the news of the proposed marriage that same evening - which is the last point in her POV.

I don't see why anybody would contact Jon about the proposed marriage of Lord Baelish's bastard daughter - he's sworn to celibacy and can't marry anyone. Not that Jon is in position to leap on the back of a giant raven and fly to the Vale to rescue her anyway.

[Le Cygne]

She realy BELIEVES she is Alayne. She thinks of LF as her father and we seen barely a shred of thinking about being a Stark.

There are Sansa references throughout. She is constantly thinking of her old life. Just looking at her last chapter:

refers to Littlefinger as Petyr repeatedly when thinking of him, not father

tries to picture Ser Loras when trying to think of who to pretend kissing

ends up pretending to kiss Sandor instead

thinks about Sandor's cloak for the zillionth time in the story

refers to herself as Sansa repeatedly

remembers Sansa loved to dance

remembers Sansa is wanted for regicide

tells herself she has to keep pretending to be Alayne in her thoughts to protect herself

considers what type of things she should wear while posing as Alayne

remembers that she was Sansa when she came to the Eyrie but now she's posing as Alayne

thinks it would be nice to see her brother again

thinks about kissing Sandor again

misses gossiping with Jeyne Poole

thinks the wind sounds like a wolf

reminds LF that she (Sansa) is already married

thinks about what LF is saying about Winterfell

I'm sure I missed something, but she's quite aware she's Sansa and she's playing a role to protect herself.

[juanml82]

Based on what, exactly? She's shown precisely zero interest in returning to Winterfell in AFFC--even as a dreamy thought--let alone securing it, which implies some sort of strategic or political awareness with respect to obtaining Winterfell you know very well (or should know very well) is utterly lacking from Sansa's POVs. Her thoughts of Winterfell are not only few and far between but also purely nostalgic, firmly relegated to the past along with Sansa Stark for whom the "day is done" as opposed to placed within a future-oriented plan or strategy. Quite the opposite of what you're bizarrely implying. When POV characters in ASOIAF do have goals of the type you're trying to attribute to Sansa, it's painfully obvious. One doesn't have to go out on a limb to speculate and "I'd say," because it's perfectly clear, and of course, there's nothing like that with respect to Sansa as of the end of AFFC.

Actually, the only moment when she snaps while at the Eyre is, precisely, about Littlefinger deceiving her about going back to Winterfell. Which is a pretty clear indication that the character wants to return to Winterfell. Of course, that is a silly notion, since the Boltons occupy it (I wonder how much Sansa, and the rest of Westeros at large, know about what's going on in the North, though) and if she was magically teleported to Winterfell or something, she'd get killed.

This is your imagined notion of Sansa as a grand strategist rather than based on anything in the text. You'd "say" what her goal is, but you can't produce any textual evidence to support it. The more important it is for you to frame Sansa in light of what you imagine her destiny will be, the further you stray from the text. If you stick to the text, rather than starting off from what you believe is Sansa's destiny as a grand player and working backwards to interpret the text in that light, I think you'll have a far more realistic grasp of Sansa's abilities and mindset, rather than falling into the trap of getting lost in the fog of your own fantasies about the character.

And really, such talk is doing Sansa a disservice, since the implication is that she's only worthy of our attention if she has this great destiny as a master player awaiting her. I say we appreciate Sansa for who she is--an unremarkable, average girl doing whatever she can to survive without the benefit of great intelligence, overwhelming martial prowess, magic, or whatever other superpowers readers wish to attribute to her (empathy queen, impenetrable courtesy armour, etc.)--rather than only valuing her for what she might never become.

Well, it's a fantasy series and Sansa is a character who's been going through a lot of personal growth (granted, it's also a lot because she starts very low in the intelligence scale), so it's perfectly within readers expectations to think it has to lead somewhere. Mere survival doesn't cut it, specially since her life wasn't really at risk until the PW.

She doesn't want to be married off for her claim, true enough, but that doesn't translate into any sort of goal for her in the text, let alone your utterly baseless speculation that she has in mind some great vision for a future where she is no longer used. A preference is not the same thing as a goal, since one can have preferences that don't translate into a concrete goal one seeks to achieve. This is especially true in Sansa's case, where she doesn't translate her preferences into concrete goals. If anything, in ASOS, her preference not to be used for her claim was strong but it didn't in any way influence her behaviour with respect to the betrothal to Sweetrobin; she was put out by the idea but was prepared to go along with it (until called on the carpet by Lysa), much as Sansa has been put out by various things over the course of the books but has talked herself into going along with them. That's fine and all, but it's not the behaviour of someone with a plan to accomplish her goals. It's the behaviour of someone content to resign herself to others' plans for her, whatever her personal preferences might be, and to adjust her expectations accordingly. Even her supposed great moment of rejecting the Lannisters' plan for her by rejecting the marriage is in fact nothing more than falling back on another third party's plan for her, which also had aspects she disliked but went along with.

Let me put it this way. Suppose you're at a restaurant, and you order the cheesecake, which is your preferred dessert. You're then informed that they've run out of cheesecake for the night. Some people might decide they want the cheesecake and take steps to achieve it (bribe the chef, who knows?). Other people might just decide to order another dessert and make do, no matter how much they might prefer the cheesecake or might dislike the other options available; their preferences have no bearing on what they wind up eating. Sansa's pattern of behaviour over the books falls in the latter category. She absolutely has preferences, but those preferences don't seem to have any bearing on her actions. (Note that she doesn't think "I want to marry for love," only that "No one will ever marry me for love." This suggests resignation despite her preference: I want this thing, I'll never have it, ho hum.) Her preferences themselves are also highly malleable; she's more likely to adjust her preferences in the face of an external obstacle than she is to attempt to remove the obstacle. Because she's unable--by reason of circumstances, temperament, and, depending on whom you ask, lack of intelligence/creativity--to come up with her own plans, she is only able to exercise those preferences to the extent that she is offered options from third parties which happen to align with them (being offered an escape from King's Landing, for one). She would prefer not to be betrothed to Sweetrobin, but she agrees to it anyway. She would prefer Loras and not Willas, but she talks herself into liking the idea of marrying Willas. She would prefer not to have to masquerade as a bastard, but she agrees to it. And so on. Assuming, therefore, that Sansa's preferences--not to be married for her claim, or to be married at all--will translate into Sansa acting on those feelings to achieve a goal, when she hasn't acted in that way to date, and is in fact inclined to accept what's offered regardless of her feelings on the subject, is baffling.

The issue is, Sansa has very little power through the series, so she can't do much about her preferences. Now, of course, part of the cliffhanger Martin wrote for her in AFFC involves the fact that Sansa doesn't seem to have a goal. And that way, we can't make an educated guess about where her arc is heading.

But even in her little power, Sansa had goals through the series: In AGOT, she wanted to marry Joffrey and took actions towards that goal. It backfired on her, partly because she was a very poor judge of character (and she certainly wasn't an "strategist" back in AGOT).

Between Ned's dead and the PW, her goal was to avoid physical punishment and escape. Thus, she openly lied to everyone about her feelings, closed herself, and secretly met with Dontos. I hardly think how her preference for the homosexual Tyrell sibling could have turned into a goal. How on earth is she going to marry a kingsguard, specially when she has so little bargaining power? And it kind of works, as she does escape, but gets into Littlefinger's hands and with a bounty on her head.

And then, with her life really at stake for the first time in the series, she lies low and survive. She would rather be at Winterfell, true, but as usual, she doesn't have the means to do so

[butterbumps!]

Again, why do you continue to respond in such a way that you quote multiple posters, but purposely avoid making clear who you are quoting by removing the names?

Based on what, exactly? She's shown precisely zero interest in returning to Winterfell in AFFC--even as a dreamy thought--let alone securing it, which implies some sort of strategic or political awareness with respect to obtaining Winterfell you know very well (or should know very well) is utterly lacking from Sansa's POVs. Her thoughts of Winterfell are not only few and far between but also purely nostalgic, firmly relegated to the past along with Sansa Stark for whom the "day is done" as opposed to placed within a future-oriented plan or strategy. Quite the opposite of what you're bizarrely implying. When POV characters in ASOIAF do have goals of the type you're trying to attribute to Sansa, it's painfully obvious. One doesn't have to go out on a limb to speculate and "I'd say," because it's perfectly clear, and of course, there's nothing like that with respect to Sansa as of the end of AFFC.

Oh, yes of course. Here is something painfully obvious: she builds Winterfell in great detail out of snow for hours when she's finally alone as she reflects on her memories of her siblings, and then flips out when her work is destroyed, shortly after realizing that post-RW, she's the heir and the last Stark left. It happens in her final aSoS chapter.

But according to you, this wouldn't count because it doesn't occur in FFC. If you want to play it that way-- that only thoughts and events that occur during FFC mean anything-- then this would invalidate all of your previous criticisms you've been proffering about what came before.

I also do not understand why you are insisting that such a desire must be painfully obvious. Sansa's character does not tend to be "painfully obvious," but she does show indications that returning home is very much her desired goal even in FFC. From the first few pages of Sansa I alone:

I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard’s daughter and Lady Catelyn’s, the blood of Winterfell.


She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother.

In one, she's stating her identity as a Stark of Winterfell. In the second, she's reflecting that Winterfell is not in a state she can flee to, but it is instinctively her first choice of home. Frankly, her continued connection to Winterfell and identity as a Stark seems painfully obvious. She's also aware that going there is impossible at the moment.

This is your imagined notion of Sansa as a grand strategist rather than based on anything in the text. You'd "say" what her goal is, but you can't produce any textual evidence to support it. The more important it is for you to frame Sansa in light of what you imagine her destiny will be, the further you stray from the text. If you stick to the text, rather than starting off from what you believe is Sansa's destiny as a grand player and working backwards to interpret the text in that light, I think you'll have a far more realistic grasp of Sansa's abilities and mindset, rather than falling into the trap of getting lost in the fog of your own fantasies about the character.

My imagined notion? So building Winterfell like that is somehow not an indication to you that restoring either the castle itself and/or the Stark family is her deepest goal? Is that a joke? Far from this being a case of my delusion, that's an indication of your extreme prejudice blinding you to what's written on the page.

There's nothing backward about my logic; when you stop strawmanning my arguments into ridiculous propositions, maybe you'll see that:
1. I stated that Sansa has already begun playing the game to whatever extent she has been able to with increasingly more success.
2. I also noted that at the very least, her goal is to survive, and at most ambitious, return home.
3. I stated that she knows that in order for her to return home, she has to either rebuild or at least reclaim it
4. I stated that no matter whether she ends up fighting for her survival or returning home, she has to play the game, and she knows this. She's already started playing for her own protection. The idea that she continues manipulating people's expectations of her is not exactly earth shattering, and evidence of such manipulation is occurring in these FFC.

You haven't produced ANY arguments or evidence whatsoever that didn't involve telling your opposition that they are some form of deluded, playing out fantasy or some other form of insult.

Further, you lost your right to accuse me (or anyone) of not sticking to the text when you went on that spectacular rant about "types" of women, and based your "analysis" on Sansa's character by saying things like how you're an Arya type, and that only "Arya types" were in gifted and talented programs and so forth.

And really, such talk is doing Sansa a disservice, since the implication is that she's only worthy of our attention if she has this great destiny as a master player awaiting her. I say we appreciate Sansa for who she is--an unremarkable, average girl doing whatever she can to survive without the benefit of great intelligence, overwhelming martial prowess, magic, or whatever other superpowers readers wish to attribute to her (empathy queen, impenetrable courtesy armour, etc.)--rather than only valuing her for what she might never become.

Of course, resorting to the concerned "you're doing a disservice" argument when it's clear that you are the one willing to negate the notion that she's already been playing the game-- which she so clearly has been-- during all 4 books.

First though, who exactly is saying that Sansa will be a "master player"? I am not sure what being a "master player" means, but I, and others that I've seen, have been maintaining that she will continue to engage with the game to secure her survival, and most likely, a power play in her own right. I think this is an "extraordinary" end for her given her character at the beginning of aGoT.

But you're the only one in here talking about the prospect of her becoming a "master player." You keep building up this strawman, and it's growing tiresome. Does she have skill in the game? Yes. Does it seem likely her skill level will increase? Yes, because we've already seen improvements. I don't understand why you keep beating the "master player" dead horse. She has to become good at it, and she's already pretty skilled. But the stakes have been raised since she's in LF's clutches, and she's quickly amping up her game. I don't care if she becomes a "master player" or not; the point is that she has skill, the skill is increasing, the stakes are higher (in terms of survival and returning home), and it strains credulity to believe she will not make a major play to accomplish those ends.

She doesn't want to be married off for her claim, true enough, but that doesn't translate into any sort of goal for her in the text, let alone your utterly baseless speculation that she has in mind some great vision for a future where she is no longer used. A preference is not the same thing as a goal, since one can have preferences that don't translate into a concrete goal one seeks to achieve. This is especially true in Sansa's case, where she doesn't translate her preferences into concrete goals. If anything, in ASOS, her preference not to be used for her claim was strong but it didn't in any way influence her behaviour with respect to the betrothal to Sweetrobin; she was put out by the idea but was prepared to go along with it (until called on the carpet by Lysa), much as Sansa has been put out by various things over the course of the books but has talked herself into going along with them. That's fine and all, but it's not the behaviour of someone with a plan to accomplish her goals. It's the behaviour of someone content to resign herself to others' plans for her, whatever her personal preferences might be, and to adjust her expectations accordingly. Even her supposed great moment of rejecting the Lannisters' plan for her by rejecting the marriage is in fact nothing more than falling back on another third party's plan for her, which also had aspects she disliked but went along with.

What?

I'm going to hazard the guess that Arya's hiding Needle isn't written off as "a preference" to you. I'm not sure why you want to insist that Sansa's rebuilding Winterfell is anything other than a dream deferred too. More, she very obviously desires both escaping from those who seek to use her as well as to return home. Maybe instead of being the same song-filled pretty girl you seem to believe she was at the beginning of aGoT, Sansa's evolved to focusing on leaning how to make a dream happen rather than dwelling on fluff and fantasy?

Let me put it this way. Suppose you're at a restaurant, and you order the cheesecake, which is your preferred dessert. You're then informed that they've run out of cheesecake for the night. Some people might decide they want the cheesecake and take steps to achieve it (bribe the chef, who knows?). Other people might just decide to order another dessert and make do, no matter how much they might prefer the cheesecake or might dislike the other options available; their preferences have no bearing on what they wind up eating. Sansa's pattern of behaviour over the books falls in the latter category. She absolutely has preferences, but those preferences don't seem to have any bearing on her actions. (Note that she doesn't think "I want to marry for love," only that "No one will ever marry me for love." This suggests resignation despite her preference: I want this thing, I'll never have it, ho hum.)

Oh, wait. That passage about SR's marriage is from aSoS, so by your impeccable logic, it doesn't count!!!!

That aside, this is a load of shit, and I suspect you know it. Usually, when your "preferred" dessert is substituted out at a restaurant the chef isn't in a position to force you to eat option B the way Lysa was to Sansa. Like, wtf do you suggest Sansa was to do here? Tell her aunt no (or bribe her, seriously?)? Because this has worked so well in the past? So, your little cheesecake example is an utterly false comparison.

Also, where are you getting off chalking Sansa's "no one will ever marry me for love" as anything other than "I want to marry for love"? It tells us that:

1. She wants to marry for love

2. She's become painfully aware that people will keep trying to use her for her claim to Winterfell.

Her preferences themselves are also highly malleable; she's more likely to adjust her preferences in the face of an external obstacle than she is to attempt to remove the obstacle. Because she's unable--by reason of circumstances, temperament, and, depending on whom you ask, lack of intelligence/creativity--to come up with her own plans, she is only able to exercise those preferences to the extent that she is offered options from third parties which happen to align with them (being offered an escape from King's Landing, for one). She would prefer not to be betrothed to Sweetrobin, but she agrees to it anyway. She would prefer Loras and not Willas, but she talks herself into liking the idea of marrying Willas. She would prefer not to have to masquerade as a bastard, but she agrees to it. And so on. Assuming, therefore, that Sansa's preferences--not to be married for her claim, or to be married at all--will translate into Sansa acting on those feelings to achieve a goal, when she hasn't acted in that way to date, and is in fact inclined to accept what's offered regardless of her feelings on the subject, is baffling.

What? She changes her "preferences" when she realizes that her goals were false goals, i.e. the marriage with Willas. They are malleable to the end that when she realizes they were poisoned in some way, she's better for not having taken those paths.

I don't understand you. She clearly does not want to be married to SR, but what choice does she have to prevent it? What is protesting this going to accomplish? Good lord, I mean, there's what, 8 years before SR will be able to have a bedding? Saying "ok" and staying seemingly sweet while knowing 8 years is a long time for something to change is not the same as just going along with it.

I'm starting to understand why you are categorically unable to recognize Sansa's game playing. Saying "yes" to Lysa, all the while hating the idea and having no intention of actually going through with it is called playing the game. Pretending you want something you have no power at the time to change to remove suspicion is a form of gameplay.

[Elaena Targaryen]

She kept meeting with Dontos, so I don't think you can say she gave up on her escape plan.

No that was not my point, SansaSnow was defending Sansa's friendship with Margaery, from others claims of Sansa being manipulated, by asserting that "it's not like Sansa told the Tyrell ladies her escape plans" I felt that was not the best example to give because it just reminds us of what did happen.

It was that Sansa went to Dontos and told him his services were no longer needed due to manipulations from the Tyrell ladies so they could use her for her inheritance, which due to the manipulations from Dontos it led to her wedding with Tyrion because Littlefinger was really pulling the strings.

How do Margaery or Cersei go against social expectations? Margaery is marrying kings to become a queen; Cersei was married to a king, was a regent to her son, and uses sex to get what she wants. Both of them want power, but are acting completely within the gender roles and social expectations of women. Same with the Queen of Thorns. Arianne is Doran's heir and future ruling princess, she's not behaving outside of social expectations of women in Dorne.

No Minsc said "aim for things that go against all social expectations" limiting and shoehorning it to one "type" of woman that placed Arya in with Asha and Brienne. I claimed Arya did not belong in with the warrior type so she would need another category as would other women from the story that aim for things that go against all social expectations implying that each would need their own box or category because their are many "types" of women with a variety of motivations. Some of these ladies seem firmly inside the bounds but all the little variations and degrees are there

Margaery seems to do as she likes and is bold but really aims to be the true ruler by making Tommen her puppet just like grandma is doing with House Tyrell. Cersei since childhood has had aims outside of the norm but the largest was to take control of who the father of her children would be regardless of the fact that a dynasty was on the line. Arianne, well it's hard go outside the norm being from Dorne but she managed to aim to put a ruling queen on the Iron Throne by casting aside her brother. Even Catelyn who I would say had no "aims" in this sense showed great strength to protect her children and the way she stepped up to help Robb was very admirable.

Arya may not be a particularly good fighter - the lack of size and strength is hard to overcome - but she wanted to be a fighter. Even as late as her first chapter in AFFC, she was telling herself her old mantra that she can do it all herself with her sword - despite the fact that this has been proven wrong time and again. She's never achieved anything waving her sword all on her own and without the help of more skilled adult fighters, and she's only gotten her life in danger when she would try to impulsively save her father or her mother (understandable under the circumstances); when she was successful in her goals (as in Harrenthal), she did it by stealth, manipulation and a clever use of other's help.

True and Arya could have ended up like Asha if it was physically possible but it's not. Variations and degrees paint a lovely canvas. You could even speculate on who Arya would have been had the war not happened, maybe more like Margaery, or post war, maybe more like Varys? It's really not that big of a difference, both work behind the scenes but they are still different.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier - Arya chose sword fighting, a "boyish" thing (inverted commas because I don't see occupations as male or female, but people in Arya's society do) as an alternative to "girly things" (inverted commas for the same reason) she was neither talented for nor interested in (you think it's just the lack of talent, I think it's probably both, since one affects the other). If she had seen other alternatives, she may have chosen something else.

Yes I agree but I feel Arya really just enjoyed playing with and spending time with her brothers who accepted her for who she was. Playing with swords equates to a good happy feeling, somewhere she belongs, so Arya continued to search for that long after things turned ugly but at least the practicing channeled some of her negative energy. If Arya had a few more sisters instead she most likely would find different comforts there.

[Le Cygne]

Also, where are you getting off chalking Sansa's "no one will ever marry me for love" as anything other than "I want to marry for love"? It tells us that:

1. She wants to marry for love

2. She's become painfully aware that people will keep trying to use her for her claim to Winterfell.

Seriously, pretty sure I said that upthread, too, "No one will ever marry me for love" = I want to marry for love. She's practically screaming that's what she wants in the narrative.

And she's actively writing stories of love, not only for herself, but for Mya and Lothor, too.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

That's straight out of classic romance. Jane Eyre comes to mind, a lot of checkboxes ticked off for that one. He came to her, that's from Romeo and Juliet. In the darkness, no less. Green fire filled the sky! How his cruel mouth feels, don't even need to go to another story for that reference, that's straight out of Dany's Daario fantasies. Shades of Northanger Abbey.

Then the clincher, she's asked about the marriage bed, and thinks of him. A thousand times (how is that for emphasis) she has dreamed of a tall strong man giving her his cloak in marriage, and his cloak comes up over and over again. And this chapter, her last chapter, ends with Littlefinger asking for "another kiss" after she refers to the kiss above as "another kiss."

Sansa has not given up on love. Whether she gets what she wants or not is irrelevant. She wants it, clearly. And that's character motivation.

[ARYa_Nym]

<snip>

I think Asha, Arya, and Brienne get lumped together when they should not be. They aren't the same.

On the subject of aspirations I would say it's Arianne and Asha who aim the highest. They both want to rule in their own right. Sansa want to be a queen consort. A queen consort is subject to her king.

Brienne was fine with ruling. Politics and warrior aren't mutually exclusive for men so it doesn't have to be for women.

It makes less sense for Aray to be interested in politics than Sansa. She was the last in line to inherit. Sansa makes more sense to want to marry a king since she is the first daughter. Arya at best would just marry some lord.

Also, if we go case by case as mentioned earlier Brienne did want a family. Asha does want to be married and since she wanted to rule she likely would want heirs. We go back in time Visenya was very nurturing towards the Vale boy. We have Val with monster. So it's not only someone like Sansa who would do that. It's just Arya who does not.

I think in terms of the swordfighting it's a hobby. I don't think it was a very concrete dream. She has said several things she wanted to do in her future but hasn't stuck to any of them.

If she really wanted to be a swordmaster her opportunity is staring at her right now in the face but she seems more content with staying with the FM currently and selling fish as Cat. There's nothing preventing her from telling the KM that she wants to leave so she can train with the bravos. There are tons of them around. She has more chance to become a fighter with them than anyone in Westeros since it's been established that knight training is not for her. She seems content with just going over her Syrio lessons and water dancing in trees instead taking the steps to make being a virtuoso a reality.

[gougef]

Arya's capabilities are often dismissed as well though. A popular saying among the fandom is that Arya will have no place when everything is done so she should be killed off.

I've had to explain that with the FM and due to her natural attributes there are career paths she could do. & it can't be solely because she kills because no one makes that argument about characters like Sandor and Jamie or even Theon (who is a mess) for example.

She could very easily be a Varys II. I have long suspected that he has had some FM-type training.

[DormeDwayne]

I think Asha, Arya, and Brienne get lumped together when they should not be. They aren't the same.

I totally agree with this assessment, and I also find your comparison of the three very good. I think they are often lumped together more because they are the female characters who challenge the established gender roles of the universe, rather than because their aspirations are the same. From a present-day POV it's easy to make the mistake of lumping them together as challenging established gender norms is *the* thing thought proper nowadays; it's much better to be able to look at them from the POV of an inhabitant of Westeros, as well, because from that POV they don't really have that much in common, as you explained.

That being said, and keeping in mind this is a Sansa thread, they truly have very little in common with her. Sansa does not challenge the established societal norms, gender roles or anything, really. That does not mean, however, that she is not a character who might soon wield considerable power. There are several characters who appear (or even are) completely conventional and still play a very important role in Westeros - Doran Martell, Tywin Lannister, Olenna Tyrell and even Cersei, to a certain degree.

[ARYa_Nym]

I totally agree with this assessment, and I also find your comparison of the three very good. I think they are often lumped together more because they are the female characters who challenge the established gender roles of the universe, rather than because their aspirations are the same. From a present-day POV it's easy to make the mistake of lumping them together as challenging established gender norms is *the* thing thought proper nowadays; it's much better to be able to look at them from the POV of an inhabitant of Westeros, as well, because from that POV they don't really have that much in common, as you explained.

That being said, and keeping in mind this is a Sansa thread, they truly have very little in common with her. Sansa does not challenge the established societal norms, gender roles or anything, really. That does not mean, however, that she is not a character who might soon wield considerable power. There are several characters who appear (or even are) completely conventional and still play a very important role in Westeros - Doran Martell, Tywin Lannister, Olenna Tyrell and even Cersei, to a certain degree.

I agree except that Brienne and Sansa do have things in common if one looks past the exterior.

[DormeDwayne]

I agree except that Brienne and Sansa do have things in common if one looks past the exterior.

That's true, as well, especially with Brienne! I didn't want to go into too much detail, but there are parallels. It's simply that there are more differences than similiarities between Sansa and the others. Sansa has things in common with Asha and Arya, as well - Asha, for example, would want to get married, too, and both Sansa and Arya love Winterfell etc.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

She COULD have written to the LC of the wall under some pretext or other - She could have asked LF to organise it for her - if he genuinely cared for her welfare he would alert her brother to her whereabouts.

I don't believe that is the case with Littlefinger.

If neon was a thing in Westeros, Littlefinger would be wearing a huge, blinking neon sign that says "I don't give a fuck about Sansa Stark's welfare or as a person since she's just a pawn in my game of power and chaos and also she reminds me of the love of my life, who by the way is a figment of my imagination since I never gave a fuck about her as a person either".

Sadly, however, Littlefinger would have to grow a lot taller to be able to wear such a sign.