Sansa Stark

[E-Ro]

Interesting thread, with some crazy ideas here and there. Just thought I would pop in and throw my two cents into this mix.

I really dislike this whole thing about personalities that people would fit into and it decides what they will make of themselves in life. Especially this whole "lol Sansa types only get pregnant and married" it's almost like this passive aggressive swipe at people that like Sansa, or people on the forums that identify a lot with her(like me, we share a gilded cage).Others have already said this, but a modern Sansa would have far more opportunities and chances to make something if herself. Chances she didn't have in westeros. I also think people are all far too different to place in these large vague personality types, but that's just me.

Eta: great post lemoncakes! I nearly missed it. I only skimmed but from what I saw you outdid yourself.

[Le Cygne]

Arbor Gold tends to symbolize an individual’s desire to be lied to sweetly. Indeed, we know from Tyrion’s adjacent POVs (not to mention the entire nature of his employment of Shae) that he wants to feel desired and loved. Symbolically, by asking Sansa to pour him Arbor Gold, he’s asking her to make him feel desired, to feed him lies as Shae does, to make him feel something. Sansa refuses, making it clear that courtesy is all that she will give. It’s a non-reaction, a poker face, more off-putting than if she wept or fought, perhaps. Weeping or fighting would show that she cares about Tyrion’s presence in some capacity; it would render her vulnerable to yet another Lannister who could witness her misery at their hands. By making it clear that she sees this as a duty, is resigned to her duty, and that she will not emote, she prevents both physical and emotional exposure and violation.

I like what you're saying except the "duty" part. I think Tyrion is passing it off as "duty" to make it seem as though they are both in it equally together, that this thing he was tempted by (Winterfell, sweet-smelling Sansa), is something he must do, and she must do, out of duty, which is usually associated with a higher purpose (by definition, duty is often associated with moral responsibility).

In other words, he's feeding her a line. But she's not buying it. She's rephrasing it in her own mind, she's "obeying" in response to a threat (she was threatened with the Kingsguard who had been relentlessly beating her). This marriage is a violation of Westeros custom, it's an act of war, to take Winterfell, and perceived as such by her family. It's not her "duty" to be raped by a Lannister.

Note when he's saying this. He's done what you said, tried to get her to go along with the deception, and she's refused. Now he's ignoring her refusal, and saying do it anyway. He's "bitter" that she's rejected him and his little game, she's not Shae, but that's not stopping him. He's making her do it anyway, and even tells her not to cover herself.

When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. "I understand," he said bitterly. "Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty."

She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, "No."

The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next...

She had promised to obey; she opened her eyes. He was sitting by her feet, naked. Where his legs joined, his mans staff poked up stiff and hard from a thicket of coarse yellow hair, but it was the only thing about him that was straight.

[butterbumps!]

I like what you're saying except the "duty" part. I think Tyrion is passing it off as "duty" to make it seem as though they are both in it equally together, that this thing he was tempted by (Winterfell, sweet-smelling Sansa), is something he must do, and she must do, out of duty, which is usually associated with a higher purpose (by definition, duty is often associated with moral responsibility).

In other words, he's feeding her a line. But she's not buying it. She's rephrasing it in her own mind, she's "obeying" in response to a threat (she was threatened with the Kingsguard who had been relentlessly beating her). This marriage is a violation of Westeros custom, it's an act of war, to take Winterfell, and perceived as such by her family. It's not her "duty" to be raped by a Lannister.

Note when he's saying this. He's done what you said, tried to get her to go along with the deception, and she's refused. Now he's ignoring her refusal, and saying do it anyway. He's "bitter" that she's rejected him and his little game, she's not Shae, but that's not stopping him. He's making her do it anyway, and even tells her not to cover herself.

You're absolutely right. I think I used the word "duty" a bit flippantly, and you've unpacked why it only represents the Lannister POV.

[Le Cygne]

You're absolutely right. I think I used the word "duty" a bit flippantly, and you've unpacked why it only represents the Lannister POV.

Good, I was hoping I put that the right way. I knew what you meant, but was suggesting a better word.

[E-Ro]

You're absolutely right. I think I used the word "duty" a bit flippantly, and you've unpacked why it only represents the Lannister POV.

Yeah, I didn't want to say anything for fear of repercussions, but you messed up big time with that. You really need to do better next time.I wish you were better at this.

Props to le cygne for pointing it out for everyone.

[butterbumps!]

Yeah, I didn't want to say anything for fear of repercussions, but you messed up big time with that. You really need to do better next time.I wish you were better at this.

Props to le cygne for pointing it out for everyone.

I see someone has become emboldened since their last chastening. More of this, and I will become more creative in my choice of online dating services to spam your email with.

That aside, I am glad that clarification was pointed out. It's indeed quite difficult to navigate the non-consent within "consent" of the bedding scene from both POVs.

[Sansa_Stark]

creative in my choice of online dating services

lmfao this is a real thing.

[E-Ro]

I see someone has become emboldened since their last chastening. More of this, and I will become more creative in my choice of online dating services to spam your email with.

That aside, I am glad that clarification was pointed out. It's indeed quite difficult to navigate the non-consent within "consent" of the bedding scene from both POVs.

Omg I thought we agreed my email would be left alone after last time? This is so unfair.

[Queen Alienor]

But be careful that is not the best example given Sansa gave up her escape plans because of the Tyrell ladies manipulations and spoiled her escape plans as well which is why Sansa had to marry Tyrion. Talk about unintended consequences and learning things the hard way. :(

She kept meeting with Dontos, so I don't think you can say she gave up on her escape plan.

[ARYa_Nym]

But Arya is not a fighter and Arya's achievements or skill set do not involve fighting so she would need to be classified as another "type" as would Daenerys, Arianne, Sarella, Cercei, Margaery, Lyanna because all of these fine ladies aim for things that go against all social expectations as well.

I don't think her skill set would translate to something unsuccessful IRL either. She's good at arithmetic, managing, can learn languages, gathers intel for the KM... All those she could translate into the int.'l business field to me. You can make money and be very successful in that profession. Or she could do something out of the ordinary for her like being a surgeon.

I also don't think that just because Sansa was the one who shined at those lady like activities except for managing a household that Arya would in turn believe that she can be a knight because then she would be better at something than Sansa.

Sansa isn't her only sibling obviously. She's also in competition with Bran. Between the two she would have had reason to believe that Bran is the one who would shine there since he was better at swords than her. When he gets crippled she doesn't think oh well I can take Bran's place now.

She saw Bran being able to participate activities that she wanted to do like hunting even though he was younger. & I don't think ladies can't do those things since from Cersei's spying we know that Margaery engages in the same activities Arya likes but was scorned for. Queen Alysanne also liked hunting btw.

Many ladies go horseriding and IRL it's the girls who ask for a pony usually. She could go to equestrian meets or take horseriding lessons if it were modern times.

Anyways, back to her skill set she does at least sometimes think about where her skills would be useful like when she wanted to work aboard a ship because of the things she could do.

[Annara Snow]

I could equally say your assumption that a modern Sansa would have any interest in any sort of career whatsoever, when Book Sansa lacks any such interest, is ridiculous, but there's no need to be uncivil. :D

As I said, nothing wrong with being temperamentally disinclined towards achievement. Most people are, after all. If you choose to interpret that observation as a slur on Sansa's character, I'd say that says more about you and your own issues than it does about my statement. :D

My point was that Arya's desire for something else goes beyond being a warrior/soldier, while Sansa never absorbs the idea that there is an "else" to begin with. That's a testament to her conventional, rather narrow thinking, that I think would be translated in the modern era towards Sansa having no interest in any kind of achievement beyond marriage and motherhood, although I suppose I couldn't rule out a side trip to college to get her MRS degree. :D

Do you think you're making your arguments stronger by putting a smiley after every paragraph?

You are indeed drawing ridiculous conclusions about women and "greatness" that completely ignore the context of society and circumstances.

Let's look at the examples you've given, apart from Arya, who's already been discussed a lot:

- Brienne: has the physical predispositions for a warrior that are superior to at least 99.99% of women, and the majority of men as well. Choosing to be a knight/warrior is therefore a natural choice, much like extremely tall people often end up playing basketball. Although she wants to be a true knight, Brienne is not thinking "I despise these girly things and I refuse to be a lady!" - there are times when she, quite the opposite, wishes she could be a "real daughter" or a "real son" to her father, because it would be easier and her father would be happier with a "normal" child (or so she thinks). She isn't opting for a warrior career because she's an "unconventional thinker", she feels like she's a "freak" and that she couldn't be a lady even if she tried. She also doesn't despise women who have the traditional role of lady of the great house, wife and mother - quite the opposite, she deeply respects and admires Catelyn*, in whom she sees "woman's strength" and decides to become her sworn shield.

And in spite of the fact that she's stronger than most of the men she meets and can beat them in a fight, Brienne has to suffer sexist prejudice, insults, malice, rape threats and rape attempts, all the time.

- Asha: she lives in a particularly sexist culture - however, she's also a daughter of a king/ruler/the most powerful man in that society, who not only supported but encouraged her unconventional choices, because he had lost or "lost" his sons - two of them died, and he couldn't get over the fact that his youngest son was raised by the Starks. Her example doesn't exactly suggest that every woman in the Iron Islands, or the rest of Westeros, could make it if she just put her mind to it.

- Sarella: comes from a culture that's less sexist and more open-minded; presumably is learning at the Citadel pretending to be a man - something that extremely few women could successfully pull off, without being very quickly detected. I don't know what Sarella's plans are, but if a woman intended to be a maester, she would have not only to be ready to be celibate (and, unlike with the men, breaking the celibacy wows wouldn't be so easy, since it would mean a risk of having your secret discovered) but also live a life of lie and pretense and risk. Obviously, children and family would be out of question, long-term relationships unlikely, sex risky for the above mentioned reasons.

You seem to believe that people exist in a void, unaffected by the society. "Greatness" is somehow something that certain "types" of women have in them, while others are inferior and destined for "not greatness", because they don't belong to the tiny minority of women that, even in the most sexist societies where they have severely limited choices and opportunities, broke conventions and made major sacrifices to pursue an unconventional career choice.

Funny how men are never required to be so incredibly unconventional and ready to break all the rules and make major sacrifices in order to achieve "greatness". There are occasional romantic "starving artists" bios, but the huge majority of "great men" throughout history have lead completely conventional lives, didn't have to sacrifice anything, had majorly successful careers, and didn't have to give up having sex, love, marriage or children. Some, like Bach, were the most conventional people imaginable. Even those people like to think of as "unconventional geniuses" - like Mozart or Beethoven or Michelangelo - were actually men who had great opportunities and successful careers and made money and a good living. Shakespeare was a guy who married and had kids and went to London to become a member of a theater company (something that a woman could never have done in his society!), which allowed him to write successful and popular plays, earn lots of money, retire and come back to his home in Stratford as a well-off man to live out the rest of his days with his wife and daughters.

I guess those "conventional" personality types in men are not a barrier to greatness? Maybe men just have it in them to be "great" in much larger numbers - while the majority of women, who did not think completely out of the box and didn't make major sacrifices and overcome incredible odds in the sexist societies that didn't give them a tenth of the opportunities that men had, were simply "not destined for greatness" and were themselves to blame!

:rolleyes:

It's incredible then that there are so many women with careers today! Since, by your logic, if women didn't have interest in careers that were deemed "male careers" and weren't ready to try to beat the system, make major sacrifices. open themselves to all sorts of abuse and suffering (check out the bio of Artemisia Gentileschi) to try to achieve the impossible in societies that give them any fucking opportunities, they were naturally not destined for "greatness" and would never have any interest in anything other than marriage and motherhood - even in a society like the contemporary Western society that does give them more opportunities!

Right. Because that's how it works. People exist in a vacuum. I guess it's just that white European middle-class/aristocratic males naturally have "greatness" in them in much greater numbers...

* Catelyn, who was a "conventional thinker" and didn't look for a career outside of marriage and motherhood and status as a lady of the house, was actually a king's counselor and negotiator during the war, and had a big influence on events. Catelyn also believed that a woman could rule just as good as a man - even though the ruling she had in mind was of an entirely conventional kind - inheriting a household through birth or marriage.

Again, talent has nothing to do with choice of career or achievement, if the person is not temperamentally inclined to make the most of their talents. If you have an incredible voice and a Sansa temperament, you'll sing for your family and in a local choir. If you have an incredible voice and another type of temperament, you'll sing at the Met. You see the difference?

Oh right, I see, if Sansa had only tried harder, she would've been singing at the Westeros version of the Met.

Oh, wait...

[DormeDwayne]

There's so much in this thread I would like to dispute, but I will try to stay on topic and not veer off in the direction of Arya, the non-greatness of motherhood, sexual abuse in our day and age, women's agency etc., much as I'm tempted :)

To the OP: thank you for the link provided, it made for a very interesting read. The analysis is definitely well-though out, and though I do not agree completely, I share most of the opinions expressed. IMO Sansa definitely has impressive social skills and is gifted in many other ways. While I wouldn't go so far as to call her “an excellent judge of character” (yet?) I don't think she's as bad at it as some commenters believe her to be.

To judge Sansa because she is unable to see that Cersei, or Littlefinger, for example, are dangerous people in unfair not only because Sansa is only 11 when they first meet, but because she is not the reader; she does not get to read about Cersei or Litterfinger from the POV of those who know them well, or even at all. You, as the reader, are introduced to Cersei and the Lannister family through Catelyn's wary eyes and the whole Lannister family are settled in your mind as untrustworthy from the start. This is not a luxury Sansa has because such things are never discussed in front of her. We, as the readers, first hear of Cersei as a woman whose “pride is said to grow with every passing year” and around whom you should therefore “guard your tongue” (GoT: Catelyn I). Not to mention what you get to learn about her in the following chapters, long before the accident at the Trident; the reader is even warned of danger from Cersei's own mouth (through Bran eavesdropping), so of course you are wary of her! I don't want to lose too much time here, but plenty of quotes can be provided easily. For Sansa, on the other hand, what with her sheltered existence and extreme youth, Cersei is simply a beautiful, glamurous queen. We do have Jon who “even at fourteen” can “see through her smile” (GoT: Jon I) but he's three years older than Sansa (and at that age, three years make a big difference) and as a boy and a bastard he had not been allowed to remain as naïve and clueless as her. She, quite understandably to me, sees Cersei as the most magnificent woman living – their Queen, the highest position a woman can possibly aspire to, and a beautiful and revered one at that. If she is not suspicious of her by default is that the fault of her lack of intelligence, social skills and attention, or the expected consequence of her upbringing? No, Sansa at 11 cannot yet be expected to see political intrigue and top-class hypocrisy (I know I'm speaking of Cersei here, but compared to guileless 11 year-old Sansa even Cersei is top class :) ), because she had not been equipped to recognize it. Initially, at least, it's insane to expect Sansa to see through the likes of Cersei, Joffrey, the Littlefinger, etc.

As she gets to know them better, then. The moments that mostly come to mind when we want to discredit Sansa are the Trident, the revelation of her father's plans to Cersei, her letter to her mother and brother, even her pleading for her father's life, but these all happen in the same year, and it takes a bit longer than that to become a master player in the Game of Thrones. Not to mention there are several exonerating circumstances that make these occurences much more logical than most make them out to be. I'm not going to delve into that because this is getting too long as it is, but it can and has been done. Anyways, Sansa plays the game by the rules she had been taught. What other rules is she supposed to follow? As she observes the game, and realizes the rules are not the same that she had been taught (understandably, since neither Ned nor Catelyn are very adept at the game) she starts re-learning them. Slowly and carefully, but resiliently. To compare her to Arya is unfair to both of them – they are not playing the same game; different rules apply. Eventually (aFfC: Alayne II), we get a Sansa who knows exactly how to handle Sweetrobin (the only one who does, apparently), though he's moody and unpredictable, a Sansa who knows perfectly well which servant gossips and should be kept at arm's length, realizes what Maester Colemon's true priorities are without being told, sees a good match for Mya Stone in Ser Brune, handles the dangerous Myranda Royce quite well, inviting confidence rather than bestowing it, works out Littlefinger's plot to undermine the parley with the Lords Declarant by buying Lyn Corbray (aFfC: Alayne I), and has enough sense to listen to Littlefinger. That might sound counterintuitive, but Littlefinger does intend to ensure Sansa's survival and relative well-being for the time being. Realizing that and following his guidance is a smart move on her part, as long as she remembers “he is serving [her] lies as well” and is “no friend of hers” (aFfC: Sansa I). As of aFfC we cannot be sure whether she is really aware of that or not and where it will lead her; we'll have to wait and see. She's come far as it is if she realizes she used to be “a stupid little girl” (aFfC: Alayne I) and that life is not a song.

Te point is that Sansa is a decent judge of character for her age and circumstances and has the opportunity to develop this skill and others while at King's Landing, and later in the Vale. Even then, however, she is only 13 (aFfC: Alayne II). Is it any wonder she cannot compare to seasoned politicians such as Olenna Tyrell, Tywin Lannister, Varys, the Littlefinger, or Illyrio Mopatis? The youngest among them is Littlefinger, who's about thirty! This does not automatically mean she will ever become as good as them, or better. What it means is she has great potential and might become a force to be reckoned with; she might not. At thirteen, it's still too early to say. Name any character you consider a good player of the Game of Thrones that was better than her at thirteen (or eleven, since people insist to judge Sansa by how she acted in GoT)!

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Oh, and for me liking assassins has nothing to do with men. This assumption is a lazy argument to me.

Females dominate the assassin character-Kill Bill women and Black Widow.

Nikita!!!

[purrl1]

[a lot of great stuff]

:agree:

[Winter's Knight]

<epicness

*bottles up Annara and keeps forever and ever*

[Annara Snow]

But Arya is not a fighter and Arya's achievements or skill set do not involve fighting so she would need to be classified as another "type" as would Daenerys, Arianne, Sarella, Cercei, Margaery, Lyanna because all of these fine ladies aim for things that go against all social expectations as well.

How do Margaery or Cersei go against social expectations? Margaery is marrying kings to become a queen; Cersei was married to a king, was a regent to her son, and uses sex to get what she wants. Both of them want power, but are acting completely within the gender roles and social expectations of women. Same with the Queen of Thorns. Arianne is Doran's heir and future ruling princess, she's not behaving outside of social expectations of women in Dorne.

Arya may not be a particularly good fighter - the lack of size and strength is hard to overcome - but she wanted to be a fighter. Even as late as her first chapter in AFFC, she was telling herself her old mantra that she can do it all herself with her sword - despite the fact that this has been proven wrong time and again. She's never achieved anything waving her sword all on her own and without the help of more skilled adult fighters, and she's only gotten her life in danger when she would try to impulsively save her father or her mother (understandable under the circumstances); when she was successful in her goals (as in Harrenthal), she did it by stealth, manipulation and a clever use of other's help.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier - Arya chose sword fighting, a "boyish" thing (inverted commas because I don't see occupations as male or female, but people in Arya's society do) as an alternative to "girly things" (inverted commas for the same reason) she was neither talented for nor interested in (you think it's just the lack of talent, I think it's probably both, since one affects the other). If she had seen other alternatives, she may have chosen something else. In the similar vein as my earlier Sansa speculation - who knows what career path Arya would choose in contemporary Western society? Maybe she would want to become an athlete, as someone speculated earlier; maybe she would have gone into law enforcement; imagine her as a public prosecutor, grass-root political activist, or investigative journalist, channelling all her fire and passion and desire for justice. Or maybe it would be something completely different.

Personally I consider both "tomboy" and "girly-girl" to be limiting and insulting terms and I wish they would drop out of fashion.

Likewise.

[ARYa_Nym]

Her actions prove that doesn't believe she can only do things by the sword if she buries her sword and joins a group where using the sword is something as a last resort. The FM do not rely on hand to hand combat but use it if a situation calls for it. They want a death to seem natural and killing someone with a sword ruins that.

Braavos might not be so bad. Syrio was from Braavos, and Jaqen might be there as well. It was Jaqen who had given her the iron coin. He hadn’t truly been her friend, the way that Syrio had, but what good had friends ever done her? I don’t need any friends, so long as I have Needle.

Needle has sentimental value. It's not just a sword to her. When she buries it she's burying the people she knows actually cares about her. At least until she retrieves it again.

Arya often ignores the law though even though she has some semblance of justice.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

<snipped another great post

:bowdown: Great analysis, again. Although I'm not sure how seriously I can take it, due to the distressing lack of smiley faces at the end of each and every paragraph. :rolleyes:

But kudos also to:

<really excellent post>

:agree: This was very well said.

Thanks, both of you for good reads.

[Annara Snow]

Her actions prove that doesn't believe she can only do things by the sword if she buries her sword and joins a group where using the sword is something as a last resort. The FM do not rely on hand to hand combat but use it if a situation calls for it. They want a death to seem natural and killing someone with a sword ruins that.

Needle has sentimental value. It's not just a sword to her. When she buries it she's burying the people she knows actually cares about her. At least until she retrieves it again.

Yes, Needle has great sentimental value, but I don't think that was all she was referring to in that quote. She was telling herself she didn't need friends as long as she had Needle - as if she could be the lone hero.

I don't think Arya really believed she could do it all herself by the sword, she is aware of the reality, I just took it the remnants of an old fantasy she didn't want to completely let go off. In AFFC, she's also still dreaming of saving her mother from the Freys - no matter how unrealistic that is - and in dream she's seeing "a monster with a face of a dog" who "stopped" her from doing that.

[Newstar]

Do you think you're making your arguments stronger by putting a smiley after every paragraph?

No, but you seem to think that the nastier your tone, the more compelling your arguments. If only it were so! :D

<snipped for a lot of verbiage about Brienne, etc.>

My point was that there are compelling counterarguments to the idea that Sansa is constrained by the time she lives in to occupy a certain role and to never think to occupy anything but that role, as there are women of her class who think outside the box, something Sansa is incapable of doing (both in this instance and in general...creative thinking is not her forte). Asha is a particularly interesting example, as she was raised in an uberpatriarchal culture, but nevertheless aspires to something more, which should be impossible if "the society" is the all-powerful, brainwashing force you seem to see it as. Sansa is not wired that way. And that's fine! Not everyone is wired that way, as you point out, but some are in this world, and Sansa, by virtue of her temperament and mindset, is not one of them.

You seem to believe that people exist in a void, unaffected by the society.

They don't exist in a void, but culture is not everything. If it were, Arya would never say "That's not me," Brienne would never dream of becoming a knight as the idea would be unthinkable, and Asha and Sarella wouldn't even exist, really. But they do, and Sansa being utterly incapable of thinking like they do, if only to dismiss such thoughts, is on her, not on "the society."

Funny how men are never required to be so incredibly unconventional and ready to break all the rules and make major sacrifices in order to achieve "greatness".

Anyone who wishes to achieve anything of note--male, female, what have you--has to sacrifice something to achieve it: time is the big sacrifice, in most cases. Most people not only lack the (intellectual/athletic/artistic/what have you) talent for achievement, but are also disinclined to make the necessary sacrifices to achieve. It's pretty much gender-blind that way. However, that inner drive is needed, because if there's no drive, then the person won't be able to make the necessary sacrifices. Because Sansa doesn't have that drive, by virtue of her temperament, she's not going to be willing to put in the grueling efforts or make the big sacrifices needed to achieve anything of note.

Maybe men just have it in them to be "great" in much larger numbers - while the majority of women, who did not think completely out of the box and didn't make major sacrifices and overcome incredible odds in the sexist societies that didn't give them a tenth of the opportunities that men had, were simply "not destined for greatness" and were themselves to blame!

Well, not really. It never occurs to Sansa that there is anything else, so she doesn't seem to feel deprived in the way that Arya and Cersei do; she doesn't burn as they do for something more than what she's been given and she doesn't dream of something more for herself. Like most people, she's not inclined to question her place in society or to make the sacrifices she needs to get ahead. That's not a judgment of her, just an observation. If you interpret it as a judgment to state that Sansa's just not wired to question her role in society and burn for and strive for something else, for whatever reason, I'd say that says more about you than it does about the statement.

Cersei's a good example of someone who has the drive but who lacks the talent, now that I think of it. One definitely needs both. Sansa may have the talent for politics--although I'm not convinced, personally--but she lacks the drive.

Catelyn, who was a "conventional thinker" and didn't look for a career outside of marriage and motherhood and status as a lady of the house, was actually a king's counselor and negotiator during the war, and had a big influence on events.

Given what Catelyn actually accomplished, and the disastrous consequences of her actions, she's hardly the poster girl for achievement by any measure. :D

I guess further, what is it about these threads in particular that compel people to believe that one can only appreciate one Stark daughter at the exclusion of another? As in, why is a thread about Sansa's early prowess at courtesy (which yes, is a skill, among many others, that can be part of a "player's" toolbox) taking tangents down the "Arya is awesome, Sansa sucks" path?

Maybe it's because some posters seek to make unfounded statements about Sansa that seek to elevate her at Arya's expense. Among other things, there's that old "Arya would have died had she been in Sansa's shoes" chestnut, which is contradicted by the books: Arya learned to shut up and take a beating and insults in ACOK just as Sansa did, and Sansa was spitting venom at Joffrey in true Arya style until she was hit and advised by the Hound to behave.

More generally, though, there's this baffling tendency to talk up everything Sansa does as evidence of some great talent. It seems like posters are throwing whatever traits they can find at Sansa to see what sticks:

Attempt #1: She possesses incredible empathy and compassion (even though she has moments where empathy is notably lacking from her behaviour...just like every other character, and even though there are other characters far more empathetic and compassionate than she is)

Attempt #2: Her courtesy armour is impenetrable (even though there are characters who see through it easily: Tyrion, Cersei, the Hound, Garlan, etc. etc.)

Attempt #3: She's incredibly intuitive about discerning others' true natures and intentions (except when it comes to Dontos...and Cersei...and Margaery...and Joffrey)

Attempt #4: She's incredibly intelligent (...most know better than to try with this one, :D)

And then, when all these fail, we fall back on "Okay, she's nothing special now, but she's GOING to be amazing, trust me!"

It just seems rather...desperate, you know? It's funny, because no one comes up with these long threads trying to come up with reasons why Bran is The Best Ever. If Sansa had some sort of magical ability (other than warging, that is), would we even have these threads where posters try to argue how extraordinary and special Sansa is?

It all seems backwards to me, since to me, the whole point of Sansa is her ordinariness. She doesn't have a magical pet to fall back on, or incredible intelligence, or street smarts. That's the idea. She's the everywoman who muddles through rolling with the punches, lacking the intensity and the focus to do anything more than keep her head above water.