R+L=J v 65

[Cristiano]

That dream puts Lyanna and the KG in the same location, not (just) because of her calling Ned in the dream but first and foremost, because of its summary which I quoted to you, and because of Ned's response I promise, which is connected to Lyanna's death and wouldn't appear here if Lyanna wasn't connected to ToJ.

Bael's story is about a Stark daughter who couldn't be found and had secretly a child. It doesn't mean that the hiding had to be Winterfell.

The dream never puts Lyanna in that location, that's an assumption a lot of people make, I will agree its a logical assumption but its not canon.

It was a fever dream GRRM said the events aren't accurate. It said "....and Lyanna in her bed of blood" it never says she was in the tower, the dream never finished what if after the events at the tower Ned went somewhere else and found Lyanna and that's where he saw the bed of blood.

The interruption of the dream may have just skipped to the last part of the dream but it never said she was in the tower, I have read it several times and it never said that. It ends with a woman screaming and I believe that is the inaccuracy GRRM is talking about because when the scream came someone was also calling Ned.

The promise doesn't have to be in the tower, as I stated earlier the dream never finished the interruption made the end of the dream inaccurate, so we can't use that as proof to say she was in the tower.

Bael's story she was hiding in the crypts of winterfell. I never said Lyanna has to be in winterfell. I stated that theory is strong foreshadowing of what happened to Lyanna, and the stark daughter was shockingly in winterfell all along. Lyanna could have never left Harrenhal and was there all along.

[Ygrain]

1). Oh I've read the SSM's. One is a paraphrase from an email from 1999. The other is from the perspective of those who were there. The app is fan-edited.

2). That's my point. How many times are we to be told how much Jon looks like a Stark? More Stark kids look like Tullys than they do Starks. How is this an argument?

3). Body type? Jon is described in Chap 1 Book 1 as slight and slim, which would be expected from a Targ and a mother known to be sickly.

4). Of course Lyanna is in the ToJ. But, so was the real Aegon, why else would the KG be there? I have yet to see a theory that accounts for the KG at the ToJ other than that. Do you think they hung around just for a pregnant (enemy) woman to give birth (supposedly legit)? I'm not saying Lyanna was not pregnant.

5). Bael's story parallels Petyr BAELish's, and he's already proven that by kidnapping Sansa. How on earth do you stretch Bael to Rhaegar?

1) At the time of the Sack, Aegon Targaryen was, "Still a babe at the breast. A year old, give or take a turn or two."

Quote marks are used for quoting the source directly, not paraphrasing. In order for Aegon to be Jon, born 8-9 months before Daenerys, he would have to be freshly born at the time of the Sack, and that's a mistake no-one would make even when paraphrasing.

2) Do we have any Stark-looking person who is not a Stark? Moreover, do we have anyone actually resembling Ned, as I quoted above, who is not his relative?

3) I was referring to Dany's body type, but that applies to Jon, as well.

4) Then you haven't read enough, neither SSMs nor the threads. GRRM said that the KG would obey Rhaegar's orders to stay at ToJ when he left for KL.

5) You mean, Rhaegar didn't allegedly kidnap a beautiful Stark daughter, wasn't hiding with her at unknown whereabouts and didn't leave her with a child? I must have read another book then.

The dream never puts Lyanna in that location, that's an assumption a lot of people make, I will agree its a logical assumption but its not canon.

It was a fever dream GRRM said the events aren't accurate. It said "....and Lyanna in her bed of blood" it never says she was in the tower, the dream never finished what if after the events at the tower Ned went somewhere else and found Lyanna and that's where he saw the bed of blood.

The interruption of the dream may have just skipped to the last part of the dream but it never said she was in the tower, I have read it several times and it never said that. It ends with a woman screaming and I believe that is the inaccuracy GRRM is talking about because when the scream came someone was also calling Ned.

The promise doesn't have to be in the tower, as I stated earlier the dream never finished the interruption made the end of the dream inaccurate, so we can't use that as proof to say she was in the tower.

Bael's story she was hiding in the crypts of winterfell. I never said Lyanna has to be in winterfell. I stated that theory is strong foreshadowing of what happened to Lyanna, and the stark daughter was shockingly in winterfell all along. Lyanna could have never left Harrenhal and was there all along.

Eh... so you claim that Roose Bolton didn't kill Robb because that information is not canon?

That "it was a fever dream" argument is getting old - because this is what Ned's PoV says about it: that it's an old, recurring dream. One in which there is aconnection between the Kingsguard, ToJ and Lyanna. - BTW, why did Rhaegar call it ToJ if Lyanna was never there?

Concerning Lyanna hiding at Harrenhall, I hope that you are aware that there was about a year between the tourney and the supposed abduction.

Edited for clarity

[Jory Cassel]

3). Body type? Jon is described in Chap 1 Book 1 as slight and slim, which would be expected from a Targ and a mother known to be sickly.

This post has already been adressed, but WOW, mental gymnastics very much? Jon is described as graceful and slender, to make that out to be "slight", only to connect it to Elia, who was sickly (not a description of body type, btw) is an immense stretch.

I am still waiting for a link, btw.

[Ygrain]

I am still waiting for a link, btw.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99171-rl-does-not-equal-j/

[Cristiano]

Eh... so you claim that Roose Bolton didn't kill Robb because that information is not canon?

That "it was a fever dream" argument is getting old - because this is what Ned's PoV says about it: that it's an old, recurring dream. One in which there is aconnection between the Kingsguard, ToJ and Lyanna. - BTW, why did Rhaegar call it ToJ if Lyanna was never there?

Concerning Lyanna, I hope that you are aware that there was about a year between the tourney and the supposed abduction.

There is no such thing as the fever dream argument getting old, the author clearly stated it was inaccurate and you keep ignoring this saying that the dream is "old" so your word is mightier than GRRM?

Analyzing the dream, it clearly shows that when Lyanna says "Eddard", someone is also calling him "Eddard" in the real world. Answer what else can be inaccurate in the dream? You claim the dream is accurate when the author says otherwise.

Where did you get the idea Rhaegar named it the tower of Joy cause of Lyanna? Did he tell anyone? Is it in the text that Rhaegar named the tower the tower of Joy because of Lyanna? Link?

Can I see evidence of there being a year between the abduction and the tourney of harrenhal? Even if its true it doesn't prove Lyanna was in the tower of Joy.

[Ygrain]

There is no such thing as the fever dream argument getting old, the author clearly stated it was inaccurate and you keep ignoring this saying that the dream is "old" so your word is mightier than GRRM?

Analyzing the dream, it clearly shows that when Lyanna says "Eddard", someone is also calling him "Eddard" in the real world. Answer what else can be inaccurate in the dream? You claim the dream is accurate when the author says otherwise.

Where did you get the idea Rhaegar named it the tower of Joy cause of Lyanna? Did he tell anyone? Is it in the text that Rhaegar named the tower the tower of Joy because of Lyanna? Link?

Can I see evidence of there being a year between the abduction and the tourney of harrenhal? Even if its true it doesn't prove Lyanna was in the tower of Joy.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Here you go quotes from the text that place the dream as recurring, and pretty much reflecting the RL event. That is in no contradiction to what GRRM said because there were no wraiths at ToJ and no rose petals across the sky, and the conversation itself is probably not word for word but rather the gist of what was said or meant.

And I'm asking you again why Rhaegar, who was said to never have known true joy in his life, named the place ToJ. I am most curious about your suggestions (though I do hope they do not include Arthur as Rhaegar's true joy, they really didn't have to hang out down there because of that)

You can fish it in the SSMs, as well as do the math - Jaime was 15 at HH and 17 at the Sack, with the Rebellion lasting about a year (referred to e.g. in connection with the siege of Storms' End). Or, if you prefer, ToH 281 and the Sack 283.

[WeaselPie]

There is no such thing as the fever dream argument getting old, the author clearly stated it was inaccurate and you keep ignoring this saying that the dream is "old" so your word is mightier than GRRM?

Analyzing the dream, it clearly shows that when Lyanna says "Eddard", someone is also calling him "Eddard" in the real world. Answer what else can be inaccurate in the dream? You claim the dream is accurate when the author says otherwise.

Where did you get the idea Rhaegar named it the tower of Joy cause of Lyanna? Did he tell anyone? Is it in the text that Rhaegar named the tower the tower of Joy because of Lyanna? Link?

Can I see evidence of there being a year between the abduction and the tourney of harrenhal? Even if its true it doesn't prove Lyanna was in the tower of Joy.

This is what I mean. a well-argued debate, yet all the responses are "BUT R+L=J and the visions prove it!"

R+L=J is not canon and if anyone wants to discuss alternatives, we can do so.

[Ygrain]

This is what I mean. a well-argued debate, yet all the responses are "BUT R+L=J and the visions prove it!"

R+L=J is not canon and if anyone wants to discuss alternatives, we can do so.

You fail to grasp that R+L is not based on this single scene.

And you may discuss whatever you wish but if you keep coming up with flawed arguments and ignoring both the text as well as the extra information from the author himself, don't expect much success.

[Jory Cassel]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99171-rl-does-not-equal-j/

Thanks.

Oh boy, large parts wild speculation, contradictions and not one single piece of evidence or a clean deduction pointing to Jon being Aegon, I wasn't disappointed.

[WeaselPie]

Thanks for proving me right.

[Jory Cassel]

Thanks for proving me right.

Are you responding to Ygrain's or to my post?

[Cristiano]

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Here you go quotes from the text that place the dream as recurring, and pretty much reflecting the RL event. That is in no contradiction to what GRRM said because there were no wraiths at ToJ and no rose petals across the sky, and the conversation itself is probably not word for word but rather the gist of what was said or meant.

And I'm asking you again why Rhaegar, who was said to never have known true joy in his life, named the place ToJ. I am most curious about your suggestions (though I do hope they do not include Arthur as Rhaegar's true joy, they really didn't have to hang out down there because of that)

You can fish it in the SSMs, as well as do the math - Jaime was 15 at HH and 17 at the Sack, with the Rebellion lasting about a year (referred to e.g. in connection with the siege of Storms' End). Or, if you prefer, ToH 281 and the Sack 283.

There is no proof that the dream is recurring, thats your interpretation and it doesn't mean yours is right.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Goodness, an old dream means "old" it means he hadn't had this dream in a long time, it doesn't mean recurring.

Dreams that are not prophetic only come after they are initiated by a similar event in real life, meaning something similar happened to Ned that initiated this dream.

From AGOT Ned just had a fight with a KG Jaime before he had this dream, and that fight was also over abduction, which was Cat taking Tyrion, thats what triggered it, not "recurring".

AGOT-

“Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. “Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again. “I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise…” “Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark. Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes.

When the word"Eddard" comes thats when the storm petals begin coming, from that point onward is just symbolic rather then real, the "Eddard" was simply from the man in the room, Lyanna didn't actually say it.

I am also curious as to where the evidence is that he named it the TOJ because of Lyanna? And the evidence that Lyanna brought him Joy.

[WeaselPie]

There is no proof that the dream is recurring, thats your interpretation and it doesn't mean yours is right.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Goodness, an old dream means "old" it means he hadn't had this dream in a long time, it doesn't mean recurring.

Dreams that are not prophetic only come after they are initiated by a similar event in real life, meaning something similar happened to Ned that initiated this dream.

From AGOT Ned just had a fight with a KG Jaime before he had this dream, and that fight was also over abduction, which was Cat taking Tyrion, thats what triggered it, not "recurring".

AGOT-

“Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. “Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again. “I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise…” “Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark. Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes.

When the word"Eddard" comes thats when the storm petals begin coming, from that point onward is just symbolic rather then real, the "Eddard" was simply from the man in the room, Lyanna didn't actually say it.

I am also curious as to where the evidence is that he named it the TOJ because of Lyanna? And the evidence that Lyanna brought him Joy.

I'm agreeing with this. It's an old DREAM, and a fevered dream at that, according to GRRM.

[corbon]

Well we don't all agree. And I'm pretty sick of seeing forum members here being mocked for suggesting their own theories.

Cheers, Wolfswood, not directed at you personally. I enjoyed your post, and I do understand your logic.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone mocked simply for suggesting a theory.

Bad theories that ignore evidence and don't use any of their own - I've seen those theories mocked often enough. And sometimes the proponents mocked when they insist on pushing ridiculously flawed theories even when explicitly shown the canon evidence (text or SSM) that disproves them. But frankly, nice or not, thats pretty well earned in most cases.

Such as the example you've kindly provided in the last 3 pages or so.

[Dr. Pepper]

The Wiki and the App are fan-edited and fan-generated. GRRM has not officially "corrected" either. Why would he? It would ruin his convoluted plans. It is to GRRM's advantage to keep people guessing, and to shock them. Who would have predicted Ned's beheading? Or the Red Wedding? Without Monday-Night quarterbacking.

Just want to point out here that the wiki and the app are not the same thing. One is a wiki, which by it's very definition, means that it's an open and collaborative site where content is added and edited.

The World of Ice and Fire app is an official part of the ASOIAF collection, same as the Lands of Ice and Fire is an official part of the collection. Martin most definitely worked on the app.

For the record, stuff like the Red Wedding is easily predicted for attentive readers. If anyone is curious about things that were successfully predicted prior to any book post-AGOT, but especially before ADWD was released, just browse through the forums. It's not like GRRM is a bad writer where he just pulls things out of his hat purely for the shock and awe.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

1).

4). Of course Lyanna is in the ToJ. But, so was the real Aegon, why else would the KG be there? I have yet to see a theory that accounts for the KG at the ToJ other than that. Do you think they hung around just for a pregnant (enemy) woman to give birth (supposedly legit)? I'm not saying Lyanna was not pregnant.

But the King's guards who fought Lord Eddard at the Tower of Joy said that if they had been in King's Landing at the end of the rebellion, Ser Jaime and Ser Gregor would be rotting in hell while King Aerys and Prince Aegon would still be breathing. So they knew, or believed, Prince Aegon was dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just chiming in to say that at some point, readers have to make an educated guess about how literal Ned's dream is or isn't. I don't think GRRM saying it shouldn't be taken as entirely literal is meant to be read as, "Don't take any of it seriously whatsoever." If it's not meant to be taken at all seriously, then it becomes effectively useless as a means of analysis, because if we can't say, "At least some of it did happen and should be read as such," then any of it could be thrown out. To get even more meta, if it's entirely meaningless, then why the bloody hell is it even included in the story? There has to be a line somewhere, where you can use common sense to say, "This probably happened, but maybe this didn't."

When I see that the dream isn't entirely literal, I think of things like the storm of blue rose petals, Lyanna calling Ned by his full name (which "bleeds" into Poole calling Ned to wake him up), Ned's friends as wraiths, etc. I don't think that the bones of the dream — the confrontation, the people involved, the time and place — are meant to be questioned. And to be blunt, tearing down the dream and refusing to take the meat of it at face value seems to be the last resort of people who can't tear down R+L=J any other way.

[MtnLion]

There is no proof that the dream is recurring, thats your interpretation and it doesn't mean yours is right.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

Goodness, an old dream means "old" it means he hadn't had this dream in a long time, it doesn't mean recurring.

Dreams that are not prophetic only come after they are initiated by a similar event in real life, meaning something similar happened to Ned that initiated this dream.

From AGOT Ned just had a fight with a KG Jaime before he had this dream, and that fight was also over abduction, which was Cat taking Tyrion, thats what triggered it, not "recurring".

AGOT-

“Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. “Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again. “I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise…” “Lord Eddard,” a man echoed from the dark. Groaning, Eddard Stark opened his eyes.

When the word"Eddard" comes thats when the storm petals begin coming, from that point onward is just symbolic rather then real, the "Eddard" was simply from the man in the room, Lyanna didn't actually say it.

I am also curious as to where the evidence is that he named it the TOJ because of Lyanna? And the evidence that Lyanna brought him Joy.

That bolded part is where real life intrudes on Ned's dream. It even says that man echoed Lyanna, in the darkness, right before Ned opened his eyes. The rest of your post rested on a poor foundation, sorry.

[Dead Wolf]

Just throwing this out there and probably just George trying to screw with the reader "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own" Jon in AFFC

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just throwing this out there and probably just George trying to screw with the reader "Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own" Jon in AFFC

There are a ton of these. "Bastards aren't allowed to fight princes." Ghost would be a "second life fit for a king." The "black bastard is the real king of the castle." More of them are in this discussion: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

These are almost certainly intentional, and they are absolutely meaningless if Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

This is what I mean. a well-argued debate, yet all the responses are "BUT R+L=J and the visions prove it!"

R+L=J is not canon and if anyone wants to discuss alternatives, we can do so.

And we are free to dismiss said alternatives if they fail to answer the questions and make as much basic sense as R+L=J. You're correct that people are free to throw out alternative ideas. And I am free to point out that, as of now, no one has yet thrown out any alternative idea that is superior to R+L=J. It's the prevailing theory for a reason.