A Northern Conspiracy of Grand Proportions: Part V

[Mithras]

Okay, Great Northern Conspirators. I've made a couple of minor (unrelated) observations that I don't think I've seen discussed here. Both concern the Riverlands edition of the GNC and I haven't quite figured out if they are truly significant observations, or merely insignificant details. Either could provide some interesting talking points, so I thought I'd throw them out there you all to consider.

First, we have discussed the possible significance of the involvement of various Riverlands maesters (Lord Vance's and Lord Lychester's specifically) and of Lady Smallwood with the BwB. One thing I've never seen mentioned is that Lady Smallwood knows the identity of the little orphan girl she shelters along the BwB. When Arya and Gendry have a wrestling match at Acorn Hall, Lem tries to blame Gendry. But Harwin knows better:

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell."

While earlier Lady Smallwood has admitted that she doesn't know who Arya is, she is present when Harwin makes this remark. She then takes Arya to get clean clothes (again, lol) When the BwB departs next day, she dresses Arya in boy's clothing and tells her to "be brave." I believe Lady Smallwood is too intelligent to have missed this detail that Harwin let slip. But is it significant in any way? Since Lady Stoneheart already clearly knows that her youngest daughter was at one time with the BwB and was last known to be with Sandor Clegane, the only implication I could draw from this is one more person who could positively identify Arya Stark (recall this has been problematic in the Riverlands, since she had never met her Tully family there) Thoughts on this?

That is true. LS also should learn from Brienne that too. Brienne was chasing Sansa. She learned from Shagwell that Sandor had the Stark girl but younger one.

My second observation has to do with the BwB's campaign against Frey's and is possibly more significant, imo. In the Merret Frey epilogue, he has second thoughts about his rendezvous with the BwB to ransom Petyr:

Let them hang him, he brought this on himself. It's no more than he deserves, wandering off with some bloody camp follower like a stag in rut.

I have to admit I paid no attention to the bolded part on first, second, third read. But paired with a reread of Jaime's Riverrun chapters, this seems a startling detail. Here is Jaime's meeting with Petyr's father Ser Ryman:

Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was [...] Ser Ryman went to his knees. "I have done nothing..."

"... but drink and whore. I know."

"I am heir to the Crossing. You can't..."

"I warned you about talking." Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done.

"You are dismissed, ser."

"Dismissed?"

"You heard me. Go away."

"But ... where should I go?"

"To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers."

Next we hear of Ser Ryman, he dead, hanged by the BwB. The crown is next seen in the possession of Lady Stoneheart. I think the BwB is using women (or a woman) to soft target individual Freys. While I also think there is a much more massive Frey extermination plan in the works, I thought this speaks volumes about BwB operations possibly being much more covert and sophisticated than we thought. In fact this train of thought led me to a certain Hildy, last seen in the company of Lord Jonos Bracken. Recall that the day Jaime met with Lord Jonos and Lord Tytos (and Hildy) he departed Raventree Hall and arrived at Pennytree the same day. Around midnight that very evening Brienne rides into the village looking for him. Can it be coincidence that in three cases where the BwB is looking for a target and quickly locates him, there turns out to have been a camp follower in his presence? Personally, I'm convinced that the BwB spy network is going to turn out to be much larger than we imagined.

Again... these observations may be insignificant, but since theories like this are built on the smallest details... maybe not ;)

I find that Queen of Whores intriguing as well. When she saw Jaime first, she got shy and tried to hide her parts. Jaime said that was bad trade if she meant to sell her goods. I think that woman was not a whore.

ETA: Am I mixing the woman with Jonos and the woman with Ryman?

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

I don´t belive the northmen are capable of conjuring a grand conspiracy from what we have seen from them so far, that seems a more "southern" trick.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That is true. LS also should learn from Brienne that too. Brienne was chasing Sansa. She learned from Shagwell that Sandor had the Stark girl but younger one.

I find that Queen of Whores intriguing as well. When she saw Jaime first, she got shy and tried to hide her parts. Jaime said that was bad trade if she meant to sell her goods. I think that woman was not a whore.

ETA: Am I mixing the woman with Jonos and the woman with Ryman?

The "Queen of Whores" was the Ryman one, the "shy whore" was Hildy, the one with Lord Jonos. But that is a very good observation... she doesn't act like a true whore should, at least not at first. And there's something about her description too ... but I can't place it. Or maybe it hasn't become significant yet?

[Minstral]

Okay, Great Northern Conspirators. I've made a couple of minor (unrelated) observations that I don't think I've seen discussed here. Both concern the Riverlands edition of the GNC and I haven't quite figured out if they are truly significant observations, or merely insignificant details. Either could provide some interesting talking points, so I thought I'd throw them out there you all to consider.

First, we have discussed the possible significance of the involvement of various Riverlands maesters (Lord Vance's and Lord Lychester's specifically) and of Lady Smallwood with the BwB. One thing I've never seen mentioned is that Lady Smallwood knows the identity of the little orphan girl she shelters along the BwB. When Arya and Gendry have a wrestling match at Acorn Hall, Lem tries to blame Gendry. But Harwin knows better:

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell."

While earlier Lady Smallwood has admitted that she doesn't know who Arya is, she is present when Harwin makes this remark. She then takes Arya to get clean clothes (again, lol) When the BwB departs next day, she dresses Arya in boy's clothing and tells her to "be brave." I believe Lady Smallwood is too intelligent to have missed this detail that Harwin let slip. But is it significant in any way? Since Lady Stoneheart already clearly knows that her youngest daughter was at one time with the BwB and was last known to be with Sandor Clegane, the only implication I could draw from this is one more person who could positively identify Arya Stark (recall this has been problematic in the Riverlands, since she had never met her Tully family there) Thoughts on this?

My second observation has to do with the BwB's campaign against Frey's and is possibly more significant, imo. In the Merret Frey epilogue, he has second thoughts about his rendezvous with the BwB to ransom Petyr:

Let them hang him, he brought this on himself. It's no more than he deserves, wandering off with some bloody camp follower like a stag in rut.

I have to admit I paid no attention to the bolded part on first, second, third read. But paired with a reread of Jaime's Riverrun chapters, this seems a startling detail. Here is Jaime's meeting with Petyr's father Ser Ryman:

Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was [...] Ser Ryman went to his knees. "I have done nothing..."

"... but drink and whore. I know."

"I am heir to the Crossing. You can't..."

"I warned you about talking." Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done.

"You are dismissed, ser."

"Dismissed?"

"You heard me. Go away."

"But ... where should I go?"

"To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers."

Next we hear of Ser Ryman, he dead, hanged by the BwB. The crown is next seen in the possession of Lady Stoneheart. I think the BwB is using women (or a woman) to soft target individual Freys. While I also think there is a much more massive Frey extermination plan in the works, I thought this speaks volumes about BwB operations possibly being much more covert and sophisticated than we thought. In fact this train of thought led me to a certain Hildy, last seen in the company of Lord Jonos Bracken. Recall that the day Jaime met with Lord Jonos and Lord Tytos (and Hildy) he departed Raventree Hall and arrived at Pennytree the same day. Around midnight that very evening Brienne rides into the village looking for him. Can it be coincidence that in three cases where the BwB is looking for a target and quickly locates him, there turns out to have been a camp follower in his presence? Personally, I'm convinced that the BwB spy network is going to turn out to be much larger than we imagined.

Again... these observations may be insignificant, but since theories like this are built on the smallest details... maybe not ;)

To the first, Stoneheart seems to be of a somewhat rational mind. When judging Brienne she looks over her documents for a very long time along with the other items that made her look guilty. Aside from that, the BWB does ask Merret the whereabouts of Clegane and "a girl or boy that may have been with him" with Stonheart in the group.

To the second... Is Lady Smallwood the "whore" of Jonos? When we see her she is shown to be a practitioner of randy/bawdy humor (telling karstark soldiers she was bedding Jaime and admonishing Tom of Sevenstreams), which is not unlike the the girl that Bracken takes (who give off an interest in Jaime as well as passingly mocking Jonos). Nothing there to really gnaw on, except from what it looks like Acorn Hall is not far fro the Bracken lands. Also, Jonos does not refer to the woman as a whore but as a trophy that he took.

Edit:...... Yeah that is so far out there that it would make a Stannis or Lannister victory more likely

[Eira Seren]

I absolutely agree we can't take that path any further without additional information. But lol at GRRM's love of alliteration!

The murder victims are:

A Ryswell man at arms

Ser Aenys Frey's squire

A Flint crossbow man

Yellow Dick (Bolton)

and of course Little Walder

I think what you propose is a possibility as far as the Ryswell and the Flint go. I think the Frey squire (who was a bit long in the tooth for that designation, iirc) and Yellow Dick may have seen things they weren't supposed to see. That's just a gut feeling though, as I haven't reviewed those chapters lately myself.

So that's 2 Freys, a Bolton (one of Ramsay's), a Ryswell and a Flint. Are the Ryswell and the Flint decoys?

Or, it's a great recipe for setting everyone against each other.

Okay, Great Northern Conspirators. I've made a couple of minor (unrelated) observations that I don't think I've seen discussed here. Both concern the Riverlands edition of the GNC and I haven't quite figured out if they are truly significant observations, or merely insignificant details. Either could provide some interesting talking points, so I thought I'd throw them out there you all to consider.

First, we have discussed the possible significance of the involvement of various Riverlands maesters (Lord Vance's and Lord Lychester's specifically) and of Lady Smallwood with the BwB. One thing I've never seen mentioned is that Lady Smallwood knows the identity of the little orphan girl she shelters along the BwB. When Arya and Gendry have a wrestling match at Acorn Hall, Lem tries to blame Gendry. But Harwin knows better:

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell."

While earlier Lady Smallwood has admitted that she doesn't know who Arya is, she is present when Harwin makes this remark. She then takes Arya to get clean clothes (again, lol) When the BwB departs next day, she dresses Arya in boy's clothing and tells her to "be brave." I believe Lady Smallwood is too intelligent to have missed this detail that Harwin let slip. But is it significant in any way? Since Lady Stoneheart already clearly knows that her youngest daughter was at one time with the BwB and was last known to be with Sandor Clegane, the only implication I could draw from this is one more person who could positively identify Arya Stark (recall this has been problematic in the Riverlands, since she had never met her Tully family there) Thoughts on this?

My second observation has to do with the BwB's campaign against Frey's and is possibly more significant, imo. In the Merret Frey epilogue, he has second thoughts about his rendezvous with the BwB to ransom Petyr:

Let them hang him, he brought this on himself. It's no more than he deserves, wandering off with some bloody camp follower like a stag in rut.

I have to admit I paid no attention to the bolded part on first, second, third read. But paired with a reread of Jaime's Riverrun chapters, this seems a startling detail. Here is Jaime's meeting with Petyr's father Ser Ryman:

Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was [...] Ser Ryman went to his knees. "I have done nothing..."

"... but drink and whore. I know."

"I am heir to the Crossing. You can't..."

"I warned you about talking." Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done.

"You are dismissed, ser."

"Dismissed?"

"You heard me. Go away."

"But ... where should I go?"

"To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers."

Next we hear of Ser Ryman, he dead, hanged by the BwB. The crown is next seen in the possession of Lady Stoneheart. I think the BwB is using women (or a woman) to soft target individual Freys. While I also think there is a much more massive Frey extermination plan in the works, I thought this speaks volumes about BwB operations possibly being much more covert and sophisticated than we thought. In fact this train of thought led me to a certain Hildy, last seen in the company of Lord Jonos Bracken. Recall that the day Jaime met with Lord Jonos and Lord Tytos (and Hildy) he departed Raventree Hall and arrived at Pennytree the same day. Around midnight that very evening Brienne rides into the village looking for him. Can it be coincidence that in three cases where the BwB is looking for a target and quickly locates him, there turns out to have been a camp follower in his presence? Personally, I'm convinced that the BwB spy network is going to turn out to be much larger than we imagined.

Again... these observations may be insignificant, but since theories like this are built on the smallest details... maybe not ;)

nice catch. Camp followers are a brilliant infiltration plan.

[QueenOfWhiteWalkers]

Where can I read the other theories please? Someone inbox me please for the link, Thank you!

[sertravisredbeard]

Some people think the Flint and Ryswell men that got killed in Winterfell got killed because they heard or saw something they weren't supposed to, like some of the conspirators plotting their dastardly deeds. The Ryswells and Flints might not be completely trustworthy yet, and the other conspirators couldn't take chances that early in the game.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hey folks, another (possibly) intriguing observation. This one has to with timeline, Lady Barbrey Dustin and the old GNC precept that "the lady doth protest too much."

Here is Lady Barbrey telling Theon about her supposed grudge against the Starks:

"My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was sweet pain.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together ... but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward, my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

"Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners."

There is something wrong with the story Barbrey is telling Theon. We don't know exactly when Ned promised to marry Catelyn Tully, but it seems likely that it was not until after he had called his banners. It's a bit muddled, because we know that Catelyn thinks Ned married her out of honour and custom, so the match could have been assumed instantly. Yet in other places it is insinuated that Hoster withheld his support early on until he had concluded the marriage arrangements for his daughters. We do know that Hoster didn't enter the war until the Battle of the Bells when Ned arrived with the Stark levies. It's also likely that the agreement between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully was only concluded after Stoney Sept, as Denys Arryn was killed there. So the logical conclusion is that Ned and Hoster reached their agreement for Cat just before the battle. In any case it seems to me unlikely that after Brandon's death Ned publicly agreed to marry Catelyn Tully immediately (whilst he was still in the Vale) and that word got back to the Ryswells in time for them to conclude a marriage between Barbrey and Lord Dustin that lasted nearly six months before Ned ever made it back to Winterfell to call his banners. While we know that some time did pass between Brandon's death and Ned's return to WF, possibly even half a year, given the sequence of events it is much more likely that Barbrey was betrothed to William Dustin around the same time Brandon's betrothal to Catelyn Tully was announced.

Barbrey's tale seems too compressed, especially given the uncertainty of the timing of Ned's agreement with Lord Hoster. What seems much more likely is that Barbrey Dustin is exaggerating her story for Theon's benefit (and perhaps for Roose's and Ramsay's) -- playing up her resentment angle. This has been oft discussed, but I think she's tripped herself up on the small details and here we have proof (nearly) positive that she is lying.

[Mithras]

Afterward, my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

We have evidences that Ned lived in the shadow of his brother (but he hid it well). Do you think he would agree to marry the girl his brother had deflowered? I don’t think so and I don’t think Barbrey’s father would nurse such hope. They are merely average vassals to the Starks. I agree Barbrey is trying to look "sweet" as Roose wants her to be.

“You think Roose does not know? Silly boy. Watch him. […] Roose has no feelings, you see. Those leeches that he loves so well sucked all the passions out of him years ago. He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings.” A serving man was passing by. Lady Dustin held out her wine cup and let him fill it, then gestured for him to do the same for Theon. “Truth be told,” she said, “Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North? Tywin Lannister is dead, the Kingslayer is maimed, the Imp is fled. The Lannisters are a spent force, and you were kind enough to rid him of the Starks. Old Walder Frey will not object to his fat little Walda becoming a queen. White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?”

“You,” said Theon. “There is you. The Lady of Barrowton, a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth.”

That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes sparkling, and said, “The widow of Barrowton … and yes, if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.”

How Roose plays with men, how he desires to be the King in the North, how he eliminates his rivals, how he keeps the widow of Barrowton sweet as she can be an inconvenience remind me LF. There are some striking similarities between Roose-Barbrey and LF-Sansa.

LF plays with men too. I think he desires to be the King of the Vale for a start. He eliminates his opponents by making them fight each other, or he himself has them killed or bribes them when applicable but he always keeps his hands clean just like Roose. He is keeping Sansa (the widow of Winterfell, Tyrion is good as dead) sweet because she can be a serious inconvenience to him. LF tried hard to make Sansa a widow. LF uses Sansa’s hatred to the Lannisters to keep her aligned with him. Roose uses Barbrey’s hatred to Ned to keep her aligned with him (or so he thinks).

The Sansa-Harry marriage plan is doomed because it was declared to us before it happened. I give zero chance to make it happen that way. I think LF will (at least try to) eliminate both Harry and Sweetrobin.

The highlords of noble blood are obsessed with blood and most of them would never agree to see LF as a king. But the thing is most of those highlords are dead no small thanks to LF. And LF bribes the remaining highlords whenever he can. If not, he kills them too. There is a pattern here. By marrying Sansa, he can set forth his claim as a king.

I wonder whether Roose is planning to sacrifice Ramsay and his plump Frey wife to marry Barbrey and declare himself King in the North?

[Eira Seren]

Hey folks, another (possibly) intriguing observation. This one has to with timeline, Lady Barbrey Dustin and the old GNC precept that "the lady doth protest too much."

Here is Lady Barbrey telling Theon about her supposed grudge against the Starks:

"My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was sweet pain.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together ... but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward, my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

"Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners."

There is something wrong with the story Barbrey is telling Theon. We don't know exactly when Ned promised to marry Catelyn Tully, but it seems likely that it was not until after he had called his banners. It's a bit muddled, because we know that Catelyn thinks Ned married her out of honour and custom, so the match could have been assumed instantly. Yet in other places it is insinuated that Hoster withheld his support early on until he had concluded the marriage arrangements for his daughters. We do know that Hoster didn't enter the war until the Battle of the Bells when Ned arrived with the Stark levies. It's also likely that the agreement between Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully was only concluded after Stoney Sept, as Denys Arryn was killed there. So the logical conclusion is that Ned and Hoster reached their agreement for Cat just before the battle. In any case it seems to me unlikely that after Brandon's death Ned publicly agreed to marry Catelyn Tully immediately (whilst he was still in the Vale) and that word got back to the Ryswells in time for them to conclude a marriage between Barbrey and Lord Dustin that lasted nearly six months before Ned ever made it back to Winterfell to call his banners. While we know that some time did pass between Brandon's death and Ned's return to WF, possibly even half a year, given the sequence of events it is much more likely that Barbrey was betrothed to William Dustin around the same time Brandon's betrothal to Catelyn Tully was announced.

Barbrey's tale seems too compressed, especially given the uncertainty of the timing of Ned's agreement with Lord Hoster. What seems much more likely is that Barbrey Dustin is exaggerating her story for Theon's benefit (and perhaps for Roose's and Ramsay's) -- playing up her resentment angle. This has been oft discussed, but I think she's tripped herself up on the small details and here we have proof (nearly) positive that she is lying.

Good point. I think you're right on the timing. The only thing I can think of is that Ned might feel honor-bound to inform the disappointed party, unless he already had a Ryswell in company and they informed the family once the marriage with Cat had been brokered. Unless the circumstances of war held up the news, I don't think a last-minute surprise is Ned's style, and any rate, isn't good business.

But why should Roose know much about it? He may not, and so I see no reason why Lady Dustin can't be dissembling.

[Minstral]

But why should Roose know much about it? He may not, and so I see no reason why Lady Dustin can't be dissembling.

By the fact that Roose was part of the army that marched south with Dustin means that he should be familiar with the timeline, not to mention that he was familiar/friendly with the Ryswells since he married one of their numbers. He has every opportunity to educate himself regarding their relationships and events so it would be off if he did not (as it would not be keeping in the tone of his character). If Barbrey is truly lying (which remains to be seen, but it seems plausible) then she might be banking on Theon not being able to be cognizant enough to give every detail to his two masters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So that's 2 Freys, a Bolton (one of Ramsay's), a Ryswell and a Flint. Are the Ryswell and the Flint decoys?

Actually, doesn't this just support the position that it really was the spearwives doing the killing all along? (ETA: The killing apart from Little Walder, to clarify.) Meaning, they're less likely to be aware of the intricacies of northern politics at this moment (i.e. they wouldn't necessarily be aware that the Flint and the Ryswell might be pro-Stark) and more likely to treat anyone who was there as equally hostile.

I do agree that Barbrey's timeline is suspect and has some logic gaps in it.

ETA: I'm just seeing LG's post about the camp followers being used as spies/lures. Now THAT is impressive. And camp followers can go just about anywhere, see a lot, not be noticed or bothered. It makes perfect sense to use them in that way.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Actually, doesn't this just support the position that it really was the spearwives doing the killing all along? Meaning, they're less likely to be aware of the intricacies of northern politics at this moment (i.e. they wouldn't necessarily be aware that the Flint and the Ryswell might be pro-Stark) and more likely to treat anyone who was there as equally hostile.

I do agree that Barbrey's timeline is suspect and has some logic gaps in it.

The Spearwives seem to deny killing the Frey kid pretty adamantly though, and hold Theon in contempt for his murder of children.

I still think that Winterfell in ADWD is like King's Landing in AGOT: multiple conspiracies are going on without necessarily being aware of the others, let alone coordinating. It seems more in line with GRRM's style than a "grand unified Northern conspiracy" everyone is in on

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Spearwives seem to deny killing the Frey kid pretty adamantly though, and hold Theon in contempt for his murder of children.

Well yeah, that would be Big Walder killing Little Walder. It's an outlier from the other murders but an easily solved one nonetheless. I'm sorry if my first post implied that I thought the spearwives killed Little Walder; I see now that it might. But no, Big Walder did that deed, I think.

[Valandui]

Good point. I think you're right on the timing. The only thing I can think of is that Ned might feel honor-bound to inform the disappointed party, unless he already had a Ryswell in company and they informed the family once the marriage with Cat had been brokered. Unless the circumstances of war held up the news, I don't think a last-minute surprise is Ned's style, and any rate, isn't good business. But why should Roose know much about it? He may not, and so I see no reason why Lady Dustin can't be dissembling.

There was a Ryswell with Ned at the Tower of Joy. He was most likely one of his close companions and it would make sense if he were with Ned earlier as well.

[CyberKlown28]

Can someone give a short, quick bulletpoint summary of this thing? It's like reading The Winds of Winter. Just the key points, no need for quotes and proof.

• Robb makes Jon his heir
  
• Manderlyyyy does stuff
  

^like that :cool4:

(the entire theory, not just part V)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Can someone give a short, quick bulletpoint summary of this thing? It's like reading The Winds of Winter. Just the key points, no need for quotes and proof.

• Robb makes Jon his heir

Manderlyyyy does stuff

^like that :cool4:

(the entire theory, not just part V)

Bullet points might be difficult, but here's a great summary, shorter than WoW, if you don't want to read all the threads.

If you're interested in how things might spill over into the Riverlands, see here.

[Mithras]

Is it possible that Blackfish never left the Riverrun? No trace of him was found. I think he might be hiding in a secret place like Bael the Bard. If there is a secret way in and out, who would know that other than Tullys? I think he can open the gate when LS strikes. After all, he was the Knight of the Gate.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Is it possible that Blackfish never left the Riverrun? No trace of him was found. I think he might be hiding in a secret place like Bael the Bard. If there is a secret way in and out, who would know that other than Tullys? I think he can open the gate when LS strikes. After all, he was the Knight of the Gate.

We obviously don't know that for sure, but there's no need for him to open the gate. The BwB have Tom o'Sevens on the inside already ;)

[Mithras]

But Tom might not be privy to the secrets of Riverrun, nor he can do menace as much as Blackfish. Besides, Tom as a free man can supply Blackfish with food and stuff.