A Northern Conspiracy of Grand Proportions: Part V

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I don´t belive the northmen are capable of conjuring a grand conspiracy from what we have seen from them so far, that seems a more "southern" trick.

Conspiracy is the wrong word. It suggests complicated intrigue. I see it as them circling their enemy ready to pounce. Littlefinger does conspiracy with elaborate plots of cause and effect The northerners are assuming a formation to slowly tighten a noose around the Boltons.

I don't think Howland is in on it. I don't think the Riverlanders are in on it either. Howland is more likely involved with the Brotherhood but in the long run is not meddling because he knows the real threat coming.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Just thought of this:

Here's Tywin's infamous line, "Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens." Tywin has the right idea, but he is wrong about his quills and ravens winning the war. Robb and the northern lords used quills to write and sign Robb's will, and there are a couple of ravens (Bloodraven and Bran) on the North's side that are preventing Lannister victory post-Red Wedding.

[Ellfoy]

^ Well said !

[Chebyshov]

Conspiracy is the wrong word. It suggests complicated intrigue. I see it as them circling their enemy ready to pounce. Littlefinger does conspiracy with elaborate plots of cause and effect The northerners are assuming a formation to slowly tighten a noose around the Boltons.

:agree: Well put

[Mithras]

“I have agreed that the free folk may keep their furs and pelts. They will need those for warmth when winter comes. All other wealth they must surrender. Gold and silver, amber, gemstones, carvings, anything of value. We will ship it all across the narrow sea to be sold in the Free Cities.”

“All the wealth o’ the wildlings,” said The Norrey. “That should buy you a bushel o’ barleycorn. Two bushels, might be.”

Does anybody feel that the guess of The Norrey on the wealth of the wildlings is too accurate?

The Appendix claims that Big Liddle is the eldest son of Torren Liddle.

TORREN LIDDLE, called THE LIDDLE,

DUNCAN LIDDLE, his eldest son, called BIG LIDDLE, a man of the Night’s Watch,

MORGAN LIDDLE, his second son, called MIDDLE LIDDLE,

RICKARD LIDDLE, his third son, called LITTLE LIDDLE,

Morgan Liddle is the one who apologized for calling Asha cunt in his battle lust. It seems like he is the leader of the Liddles and Torren Liddle is not with Stannis. Nor he came to the Wall with Torghen Flint and Brandon Norrey. His whereabouts is a mystery.

The Liddle Bran met might really be The Liddle. He talked in a rather educated manner and he knew all about the Great Ranging and that no one returned yet. Since his eldest son is a ranger, I think The Liddle need not come to the Wall with The Flint and The Norrey because Big Liddle should be (somehow) giving him the latest news as usual. So, he should be doing something important off-screen because he was with Bran back in ASoS and he is too important to do nothing for all this time.

By the way, it is curious that the eldest son takes the black and becomes a ranger.

Questions:

1. Why did neither the mountain clans nor the Umbers come to defend the Wall, especially when it was most needed?

2. How did the Old Flint and Norrey come quickly with two wetnurses for the son of Mance, whom they should hate heartily?

3. How is it possible that Mance is cooperating with the man (Crowfood) who wanted his skull as his price to join Stannis? (I am talking about how he packed and delivered Theon and fArya to him precisely).

4. Was there another purpose to the Battle of the Bridge of Skulls other than emptying the garrison at Castle Black? Was Mance planning to erase the most of the old school NW men and at the same to get rid of notorious wildling raiders (like the Weeper) who are clearly despised by the mountain clans and Umbers?

5. What was Mance doing when he scaled the Wall half a hundred times?

6. Are the Thenns only folk to call Mance as The Mance, which is a very similar expression to the styles of clan chiefs?

7. Jon says the mountain clans feel honored to accept a king. Is Stannis the only king they have seen since the Conquest?

8. Why should we think that Mance was not hiding anything from Jon in the tent just before Stannis arrived, especially with the presence of a false horn? Should we think that the horn was not the only farce there? Was Mance lying to Jon about his plans in the south?

I think Rowan is the daughter of Crowfood. Apart from being long and old, she used the phrase “Lord Eddard” with a deep respect to the Starks, which are typical of Umbers.

Another thing, the 100k host of Mance included at most several thousand fighters and a united force in the North could have crushed them as easily as Stannis. Mance is not stupid enough to work decades only to lead his people to a better death compared to the Others. So, it makes sense if he has come to a certain agreement with the Northmen living in close proximity to the Wall, namely the Umbers and the mountain clans.

Perhaps Mance and the Northmen agreed that they should eradicate the likes of Bowen in the NW but I think they agreed to man the Wall with the thousands of people in Mance’s host instead.

Therefore, a live communication between the mountain clans and some rangers under the leadership of Big Liddle is possible.

[Arya Targaryen]

I think Rowan is the daughter of Crowfood. Apart from being long and old, she used the phrase “Lord Eddard” with a deep respect to the Starks, which are typical of Umbers.

How old is Rowan? Crowfood's daugther should be around 45 or more. That seems to be a bit too old. Even Mance is younger than that. She could be a grandchild, however. (Though I'm on the team of the daughter being Tormund's wife, Tall Toregg's mother)

[Mithras]

How old is Rowan? Crowfood's daugther should be around 45 or more. That seems to be a bit too old. Even Mance is younger than that. She could be a grandchild, however. (Though I'm on the team of the daughter being Tormund's wife, Tall Toregg's mother)

“Leave me be. I have no coin.”

The woman smiled crookedly. “Do you take me for a whore?” She was one of the singer’s washerwomen, the tall skinny one, too lean and leathery to be called pretty … though there was a time when Theon would have tumbled her all the same, to see how it felt to have those long legs wrapped around him.

“Am I not to m’lord’s taste? I could send Myrtle to you if you want. Or Holly, might be you’d like her better. All the men like Holly. They’re not my sisters neither, but they’re sweet.”

GRRM uses leathery to describe old people.

[Arya Targaryen]

GRRM uses leathery to describe old people.

But how old? I'm not sure it means "old" in this case (Theon is about 23 at this time, he would call a woman of 28-30 old, too) And IIRC Mance asked for young and pretty spearwives.

Anyway, Mance really has some huge balls if he takes Crowfood's own daughter to Wf with him as a "washerwoman".(Wouldn't Whoresbane recognise her? Or is he not there?)

[Mithras]

But how old? I'm not sure it means "old" in this case (Theon is about 23 at this time, he would call a woman of 28-30 old, too) And IIRC Mance asked for young and pretty spearwives.

Anyway, Mance really has some huge balls if he takes Crowfood's own daughter to Wf with him as a "washerwoman".(Wouldn't Whoresbane recognise her? Or is he not there?)

But one of them looks old enough to pass as Mance's mother right? I searched leathery in the books and GRRM used it to describe Chella, Dywen, some old BwB members, Septon Meribald, JonCon, Brown Ben, Bloodraven along with Rowan. You tell me how old must she be.

[Ghosts Lunch]

It feels like the kind of thing the Boltons would do (if not openly). I feel that the others may take advantage of the chaos (do we know the timing ing/circumstances of the Skagos rebellion.)

However, the impression I get is that it has been a long time since most of the northern houses have considered defying Winterfel.

I do find it curious that Brynden Rivers is willing to take Bran on as a protege/apprentice.

The rebellion was about a 100 years ago and we have no real idea why it happened.

Will probably be articulated through future Davos chapters

Like the Hillmen, there is probably some kind of method to the madness of having Rickon or more specifically Shaggydog so "wild with rage", as his pseudo wild behaviour may actually endear him to the wild Sgakosans.

Will be quite something if he comes back with a pseudo army in support. Much depends on whether they will support the Starks following the events of the rebellion

[Ghosts Lunch]

Conspiracy is the wrong word. It suggests complicated intrigue. I see it as them circling their enemy ready to pounce. Littlefinger does conspiracy with elaborate plots of cause and effect The northerners are assuming a formation to slowly tighten a noose around the Boltons.

I don't think Howland is in on it. I don't think the Riverlanders are in on it either. Howland is more likely involved with the Brotherhood but in the long run is not meddling because he knows the real threat coming.

A lot seems to be based on opportunity. Stoneheart may be doing more behind the scenes than we realise in the "Littlefinger" role (she has captured Robbs old crown) and I do suspect they are somewhat using Stannis to help push the Ironborn out plus deplete the Boltons/Freys

Just thought of this:

Here's Tywin's infamous line, "Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens." Tywin has the right idea, but he is wrong about his quills and ravens winning the war. Robb and the northern lords used quills to write and sign Robb's will, and there are a couple of ravens (Bloodraven and Bran) on the North's side that are preventing Lannister victory post-Red Wedding.

Yep, in this case Robbs will post Red Wedding can have a uniting effect of the remaining northern Lords

Looking at past threads, not sure if laws of succession would put a legitimised Jon Snow before female heirs like Sansa and Arya, but certainly not before Rickon

Robb wasn't aware of Bran and Rickon being alive, but the whole point of the discussion of Jon being Robbs heir serves a purpose in an "acceptance" arc, eg Jon has dreams where the statues in the crypts of winterfell tell him he doesen't belong etc

There is a suggestion Manderly used "Liege Lord' quite cryptically, and that Rickon would be Lord of Winterfell with Jon being King in the North. This doesen't hold IMO, if a legitimised Jon comes before Rickon we end up with a Rickon type situation and this of course ignores the fact that Manderly also knows Bran is still alive. This was really a play on words to appease Davos's belief in Stannis. Only way Rickon is a Liege Lord under Jon is if Jon is King in a united Westeros

I don't think that will happen, purpose of Robbs will recognising Jon is to serve as a Stark acceptance plot tool. For mine this would all get superseded by R+L=J, if that comes out then at the very least he becomes a Targaryen bastard, if Rhaegar went as far as polygamously marrying Lyanna (while she was only singly married) than Jon Snow would be a legitimate Targaryen heir if Aegon VI does indeed turn out to be a Blackfyre

Obviously through Jaimie chapters we've seen Robbs kingdom undone, could be that it bounces back purely as a northern Kingdom minus the southern areas, at the same time there may be some symbolism in Nymeria and her pack/s being all over the Trident Riverlands area

Howland Reed would be quite massive in all of this, intriguingly his domain straddles both the North and the Riverlands. He is hypothetically close enough to White Harbour to keep Manderly informed about what's happening with Bran, given his children are with him, which may explain why Manderly is more concerned about Davos getting Rickon instead of Bran. There may be something in Jojens cryptic reference about Howland once meeting the Children in the Riverlands Grove once before changing the topic to the Laughing Night story so he (Howland) may be able to communicate with the Children in the caves of through Jojen from afar depending on what happened

Of course Howland Reed was also the only(?) witness alongside Ned (certainly of noble birth if we ignore servants and midwives) who bore witness to the truth of Jons birth (if R+L=JS is correct) with all the implications that carries