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Aegon is real


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#1 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:08 AM

Thought we could discuss this here

 

 

http://asoiaf.wester...g-op/?p=3335641

 

What do you think of this?



#2 OnionAhaiReborn

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:25 AM

Thought we could discuss this here

 

 

http://asoiaf.wester...g-op/?p=3335641

 

What do you think of this?

 

I think that's a troll thread that I remember well.

 

Do you have any new arguments that Aegon is real?



#3 ser piggy of horn hill

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:25 AM

i really hope so. im rooting for him



#4 Mladen

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

1. Varys as Targaryen loyalist

 

Why we doubt that? The common sense. First, he grew the Aerys' paranoia, then when Rhaegar had chance to keep Targaryens ruling, he ratted him to Aerys. Varys is only loyal to himself, or whatever purpose he has on mind.So, in my mind, Varys is no Targaryen loyalist.

 

2. Black or red dragon line

 

This actually talks more about Aegon not being the red dragon he claims to be

 

3. Kevan/Varys conversation

 

This has been done to death. The only way to keep the lie is if you never say it loud.

 

4. Tyrion

 

Tyrion is not omniscient, and he is not that perfect judge. Should I remind you of how Sansa fooled him with her lies about praying?

 

5. Mummers

 

Varys was a mummer. OP got that wrong.

 

6. The story is implausible

 

The logistics is completely impossible. So Varys had a child looking just like Aegon on hold because he knew in advance that he will need one? I don't think so. That story is full of holes, mainly why would Elia save one, and not both children, and why she was grasping fake kid, when her own daughter was nowhere to be found.

 

7. Rhaegar vision

 

Rhaegar could have been wrong. Don't forget he thought he is PTWP. And Targaryen sigil shows "three-headed dragon" which is ONE dragon, not THREE, If I can count.



#5 joluoto2

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:39 AM

I don't think Aegon is real, it seems a little too farfetched that Varys and Illyrio were able to make the switch right under Elia's nose. But I don't think Aegon's real identity matters. He may be a Mummer's dragon, but he's the Dragon in Westeros. People will rise up for him, and he might get the throne. A twist could be that he actually manage to keep it.



#6 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:43 AM

1. Varys as Targaryen loyalist

 

Why we doubt that? The common sense. First, he grew the Aerys' paranoia, then when Rhaegar had chance to keep Targaryens ruling, he ratted him to Aerys. Varys is only loyal to himself, or whatever purpose he has on mind.So, in my mind, Varys is no Targaryen loyalist.

 

 

 

 

Aerys paranoia was borne of his stay at Crakehall  Duskendale, Varys had nothing to do with it.

And he urged Aerys to NOT open the Gates of KL.


Edited by SuperTechmarine, 18 December 2013 - 11:54 AM.


#7 Nictarion

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:50 AM

 
 
Aerys paranoia was borne of his stay at Crakehall, Varys had nothing to do with it.

What happened at Crakehall? Do you mean Duskendale?

#8 Ygrain

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:52 AM

Aerys paranoia was borne of his stay at Crakehall, Varys had nothing to do with it.

And he urged Aerys to NOT open the Gates of KL.

You mean Duskendale.

 

And yes, while this was the event that shattered his not exactly stable mind, Varys did fuel his paranoia. We have in Jaime's PoV how Aerys saw traitors everywhere and how Varys always hurried to point out some more who might have been overlooked. We have references from both Jaime and Barristan how the true rot of Aerys's rule began with Varys, and we know that Aerys attended the tourney of Harrenhall because Varys claimed it was a ruse for preparing a coup.



#9 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:54 AM

What happened at Crakehall? Do you mean Duskendale?

 

Mistake on my part.



#10 PrimeRhaegar

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:59 AM

as far as i'm concerned until he is proven false he is rhaegar's son



#11 RoamingRonin

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:12 PM

And he urged Aerys to NOT open the Gates of KL.

 

What do you think would have happened if Aerys kept the gates closed? 



#12 Ygrain

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:16 PM

 

What do you think would have happened if Aerys kept the gates closed? 

Plus, do we really know that this is what Varys wanted? He played the king like a lute, getting him do the very opposite what he was adviced must have been easy cake.



#13 lightbringer333

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:30 PM

i think this will be the last try from Blackfyres. Btw who killed bittersteel? was it bloodraven ??



#14 Fire Eater

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:46 PM

as far as i'm concerned until he is proven false he is rhaegar's son

Actually, for me until he is proven to be Rhaegar's son, he is false. Plenty of hints in the text point to him being a Blackfyre.

 

i think this will be the last try from Blackfyres. Btw who killed bittersteel? was it bloodraven ??

It isn't mentioned. All we got is on his deathbed he asked to have skull boiled down, and gilded to be brought back to Westeros when they took the IT.

 

Plus, do we really know that this is what Varys wanted? He played the king like a lute, getting him do the very opposite what he was adviced must have been easy cake.

 

Manipulation is one of Varys's strong suits.



#15 OnionAhaiReborn

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:54 PM

Actually, for me until he is proven to be Rhaegar's son, he is false. Plenty of hints in the text point to him being a Blackfyre.

 

Agree.

 

There is absolutely no evidence for him being real beyond the statements of an untrustworthy character and a person who is no position to know any better. In contrast, there are piles of hints and clues supporting the Blackfyre angle.



#16 Lord of Dragonstone

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:05 PM

 

And yes, while this was the event that shattered his not exactly stable mind, Varys did fuel his paranoia. We have in Jaime's PoV how Aerys saw traitors everywhere and how Varys always hurried to point out some more who might have been overlooked. We have references from both Jaime and Barristan how the true rot of Aerys's rule began with Varys, and we know that Aerys attended the tourney of Harrenhall because Varys claimed it was a ruse for preparing a coup.

 

I don't know if Jaime or Barristan's POVs are completely reliable.  It's likely they were probably biased towards Varys given he's a master at intrigue(something which neither are particularly adept at) and physically weak and a coward(basically the exact opposite of Jaime/Barristan)

 

Not that I'm guaranteeing Varys is 100% a loyalist, I'm still on the fence as to whether or not Aegon is real.  But Jaime/Barristan aren't proof imo that Varys is/was anti-Targaryen.



#17 CJ McLannister

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:16 PM

I go back and forth on this one.  I lean toward him not being Aegon, but I can't get on board with the Blackfyre angle either- or at least not to the level of specificity that some have put it.  I don't think he's Illyrio's son.  I am intrigued by the theory that he's Ashara Dayne's son, but I don't see much evidence of that either. 

JonCon certainly thinks that he is Aegon, but is is possible that Varys also thinks so?  The Varys-Kevan thing is just a little odd.  Varys is a liar to be sure, but what's the point of lying to Kevan?  Why tell him anything at all while waiting for him to die?  Does he think Qyburn is as good at his job as he was?



#18 Mladen

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:22 PM

Aerys paranoia was borne of his stay at Crakehall  Duskendale, Varys had nothing to do with it.

And he urged Aerys to NOT open the Gates of KL.

 

Yes, but Varys was constantly feeding it with new pieces of information. i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that lion's share of Aerys' later madness is on Varys. Yes, I know what he urged. But, that also can be explained. Varys wanted Targaryens on the rule, especially weak Aerys, not new possibly strong King who would unite the Kingdoms. That is why he advised Aerys, so he could protect his kingship.



#19 CJ McLannister

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:28 PM

But what was his endgame at that point?  If he does want a Blackfyre ruler, then fAegon wasn't even born yet, and the line was more or less extinguished.  How long has he been planning this game?  And did he take steps to make sure that the real Aegon was murdered so that he could spring this trap? 

Even if he had a Blackfyre male, the opportunity to put him on the throne was only made possible by Robert's Rebellion.  So was that all Varys' doing as well?  I wouldn't put anything past anyone, but I don't know that Varys is that good of a puppetmaster.



#20 Rooseman

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:28 PM



The Varys-Kevan thing is just a little odd.  Varys is a liar to be sure, but what's the point of lying to Kevan?  Why tell him anything at all while waiting for him to die?  Does he think Qyburn is as good at his job as he was?

 

To be of the save side. Same as Littlefinger tells Sansta to always be Alayne, even if they're totally alone. How stupid would it be to risk years and years of planning, just because Varys mistakenly thinks he can talk openly for one moment? He'd have to have a very good reason to not stick to the lie.