Reexamining the blue flower on the wall of ice - what does it really mean for Jon?

[ghosts in winterfell]

Before I get started, I would just like to say hello! I am relatively new here -- I've just been lurking after I finished reading the series over the summer. This is my first official thread, so be gentle! :kiss:

I had originally intended for this to be a reply to the "Will the Wall Fall?" thread, but it ended up being longer than I had intended so I just made my own topic about it. The Wall is definitely on the verge of collapsing, either physically or metaphorically, the Night 's Watch will be no more. I think Jon will play a large role in bringing it down -- but how?

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

This scene from Dany's visit to the House of the Undying is almost certainly related to Jon and his placement at the Wall. I have no doubts about the validity of R+L=J. However, I have come to see the potential meaning behind this segment of the prophecy much differently than when I had first read it.

I used to be pretty sold on the idea that Jon was Azor Ahai reborn/The Prince that was Promised/The Last Hero and one of the 3 Heads of the Dragon, so my first interpretation of this piece was that Jon would have a hand in defeating the Others and bringing about the end to the Long Night. The imagery of a flower growing out of ice brings to mind the end of winter and the coming of spring. The sweetness likely indicates that Jon will be a useful ally and a potential love interest for Dany.

Like I said, I used to be quite sold on this theory; I had begrudgingly accepted that there could be a chance of a union between Jon and Dany, and that the freaky red witch Melisandre might actually be on to something. Now, not so much. I am really intrigued by the arguments that have been brought up in the Heresy threads. I am quite fond of the idea that the Others/White Walkers may not be the ultimate evil we have been lead to believe and that R'hllor/Azor Ahai/Dany & her dragons may in fact be false saviors -- especially Dany. I think that we will be seeing a negative shift in her character in the future. I don't think she will become an outright Villain, but she is definitely headed into antagonist territory. It is unlikely that she will ever come to terms with the fact that the Targaryen Dynasty was rightfully displaced. Her ordeal at the end of aDwD and the impending second installment of the Dance of Dragons will probably fuel her delusions and sense of entitlement, and the madness that plagued her father and many other Targaryen kings will begin to show its ugly, inbred face. Dany will be co consumed in the struggle for the Iron Throne that she won't spare the conflict in the North a second glance.

These ideas have made me see things, like this part of the prophecy, in a completely different light than I once had. Let's have another look.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

Before, I had thought that the Wall would be rendered useless because the Evil Others would be vanquished and the Eternal Summer would be at hand. Now, however, the imagery of the flower growing out of a chink, or crack in a wall of ice brings to mind something else entirely. I do not remember seeing this suggested anywhere, so forgive me if this has actually already been beaten to death and I just wasn't looking hard enough :blushing:. The blue flower (being Jon) has created a fissure in the foundation of the Wall; a fissure that could bring the entire infrastructure down around itself. Thinking about this possibility actually reminds me of Edgar Allen Poe's The Fall of the House of Usher. So if anyone is familiar with this story, I suppose that is what I am trying to get at here.

As for the sweetness, I really enjoyed this thread examining the negative connotations that sweetness holds in regards to Dany's arc. It is likely that this is bad news for her. If R+L=J proves to be true it places Jon ahead of Dany in the line of succession for the Iron Throne (eta: If Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed). I have a feeling that Dany will not be willing to compete with or share power with anyone, even if they might be one of the 3 Heads of the Dragon. She will only see him as a threat. However, I doubt Jon would have any interest in snatching the Iron Throne from her.

I think that this segment from the prophecy means that Jon will be responsible for the Wall's literal or metaphorical downfall. Exactly how, I am not quite sure. I like what others have said about the Night's Watch not remaining true: the violent dissent among its members in reaction to Jon's plans could be the potential trigger that causes its magic to fail. I am partial to the theory that the Horn of Winter will come into play.

I know the popular opinion is that the horn in Sam's possession is actually the Horn of Winter, but I think that this might be a red herring and it really is just some old, cracked horn. I think that the real Horn of Winter is hidden in the crypts of Winterfell. I think that Mance Rayder knows this, and that this was the real motivation behind both of his infiltrations. Considering that his spearwives kept asking Theon where the crypts were located, Mance's first attempt at gaining access to them was unsuccessful. While it is possible that they could have merely served as a hideout or quick escape route should something go awry, his sniffing after the crypts doesn't make sense otherwise. It is likely that the purpose behind his excavations in the Frost Fangs was to create a diversion by finding a suitable, temporary stand-in that would be seen as a big enough of a threat by the Watch that they would let the wildlings pass, thus giving him more time to get his hands on the real horn. I think that rescuing "Arya" was never actually a part of his plan. But, why is he so determined to find the horn? Wouldn't tearing down the Wall be quite counter-productive to his goal of protecting his people?

"If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more..."

"But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"
Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days."

I can't help but wonder that perhaps this is exactly what Mance had in mind. Is it possible that he hasn't been entirely honest about his agenda? What does he know that we don't? His fate at the end of aDwD is quite uncertain. Ramsay would have us believe that he is holding Mance captive. I think that this is a lie. It is likely that he was able to discover the details of the plan to rescue "Arya" from one of the spearwives instead, and that Mance peaced out at the first sign of trouble and sought refuge in the crypts.

I also like what Bran Vras has suggested about Mance and the Horn of Winter (TL;DR - the horn is in the cyrpts and Mance gets his hands on it; this is the mysterious horn sounding from somewhere inside of the castle before the big escape). Either way, The King Beyond the Wall has scaled said Wall countless times, has snuck his way inside of Winterfell on more than one occasion, and even gave Stannis Baratheon the slip right under his nose. If there is anyone in Westeros that is going to finally bust him, I highly doubt that it will be Ramsay Snow of all people.

How Jon fits in to this is tricky. Things aren't looking very good for him, at the moment. I don't think that he is dead. Let's be honest, GRRM just needed a serious cliffhanger to keep us all talking for the next decade that it takes him to finish the next book. He's already played the resurrection card enough times that it would just be cheap at this point. Marsh & Co. probably didn't get the chance to finish the job because the scene descended into complete chaos. Regardless, Jon is certainly in critical condition. It is possible that he will warg Ghost while his body is recovering. Melisandre might even work her magic to save him.

As I said earlier, I used to be on board with the Azor Ahai reborn theory but have since abandoned it. This is not because I find it to be ridiculous and farfetched. It is actually quite possible and not without merit, but the Chosen One trope is utterly predictable and quite boring -- something that GRRM has claimed that he had hoped to avoid with aSoIaF. Now, either he is tooting his own horn here, or he has had a serious twist planned from the start.

I am inclined to believe that all of this Azor Ahai business is a red herring. I have no doubt that Melisandre will come to believe that it is Jon, not Stannis, who is her Azor Ahai. She has spent her time at the Wall working her hardest to convince Jon of her great power and gain his trust. During his last chapter in aDwD, it seemed that all of her hard work was paying off; Jon had finally begun to take her seriously. What better way to ensure his trust than by saving his life?

The real question here is will he take the bait? Like I said, it seemed that he was becoming quite convinced that Melisandre was actually on to something. I think that whether or not he continues to buy in to what she has to say is entirely dependent on whatever dreams Bran sends his way while he is down and out. I believe Jon will be revisiting his strange dreams about the crypts of Winterfell.

This is probably my favorite thread, the one that made me rethink everything I had previously thought and sparked my interest in the Heresy. I believe that Jon's dreams of the crypts will give us a glimpse of the true relationship between the Children of the Forest, the Others, and the First Men. I believe that these dreams will also reveal that the Night's King was in fact a Stark, and that his tomb resides in the crypts. Perhaps we will see the Horn of Winter itself, or even the long lost blade, Ice (an Other's sword? the name would be fitting). Whatever secrets the crypts contain will be a big game changer.

To wrap this up, I have a feeling that Jon isn't going to do a thing to stop the coming of the Long Night, and Bran may even have a hand in this as well.

Sorry if this was a little long-winded! Like I said, I had orginally meant for this to be a reply to another thread.

TYFYT! :D

[Roddy the Ruin]

I like the Idea the "chink" could bring down the Wall, meaning that with Jon's death the Wall will fall or cease to be relevant

[Snowmelter]

Well written, thank you. I think you are on to something here. Need to go re-read some chapters. :drunk:

[J. Stargaryen]

Nice OP, and on my favorite topic. :) Here are some links that you might enjoy, if you haven't already seen them:

Blue Roses (re-read) - By Hodorific

Jon Snow's Fate - By Yolkboy

The Moment When All the Smiles Died

Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

The last two are mine.

[BryndenTullys#1fan]

I don't agree on the Dany dissent into madness like her father. Ser Barry has said that she is more like Rhaegar than Viserys. Everything else is well written

[Roddy the Ruin]

I don't agree on the Dany dissent into madness like her father. Ser Barry has said that she is more like Rhaegar than Viserys. Everything else is well written

my guess is Rhaegar was bipolar

[ghosts in winterfell]

Nice OP, and on my favorite topic. :) Here are some links that you might enjoy, if you haven't already seen them:

Blue Roses (re-read) - By Hodorific

Jon Snow's Fate - By Yolkboy

The Moment When All the Smiles Died

Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

The last two are mine.

Thankyou! I have actually already come across both of yours, I really enjoyed them!

[Disputatious]

For what 'tis worth, I suspect Dany will not see Jon as a threat, but rather as a husband and consort. Also, I do not see the merit in danm's argument about sweetness as applied to the HOTU vision. Inductive arguments can be tripped up by one counter-case, and there are black swans, after all.

On the other hand, I do see the blue flower as the key to Dany learning about Jon's parentage. Tyrion and Ser Barristan know enough between them to figure it out, provided that Ser Jorah or Dany asks them about it. Marwyn's recounting of the danger at the wall as related to him by Samwell could be the stimulus to the discussion.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I don't agree on the Dany dissent into madness like her father. Ser Barry has said that she is more like Rhaegar than Viserys. Everything else is well written

Thank you! This is a fair point that I had not forgotten this while I was writing. However, I am not sure that Ser Barristan's opinion is the most reliable. Firstly, Dany is still quite young; the symptoms may simply not have begun to show themselves at that point in time. Secondly, he is in the unfortunate position of being an unreliable narrator; he cannot see inside of Dany's head like we can; he isn't privy to her thoughts. Of course, we also haven't seen anything particularly startling -- yet. Thirdly, I am afraid that Ser Barristan may be seeing her through rose colored lenses.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I like the Idea the "chink" could bring down the Wall, meaning that with Jon's death the Wall will fall or cease to be relevant

Thank you for replying! Yes, Jon was the only one that was holding that delicate situation together. Taking him out would cause the fragile peace between the wildlings and the Night's Watch to crumble to pieces. However, Jon is my second favorite Stark, so I i must admit I am not partial to anything that involves him actually dying :crying:

[Roddy the Ruin]

Thank you for replying! Yes, Jon was the only one that was holding that delicate situation together. Taking him out would cause the fragile peace between the wildlings and the Night's Watch to crumble to pieces. However, Jon is my second favorite Stark, so I i must admit I am not partial to anything that involves him actually dying :crying:

yup if we include him as a Stark then he is my Second fav. The first is Ned and the third is Robb. I can see with the Ide's of Marsh that the magic of the Wall that keeps the Others out may stop working. So the Wall may not even have to physically fall for it to become irrelevant.

[Lyse Stark]

Before I get started, I would just like to say hello! I am relatively new here -- I've just been lurking after I finished reading the series over the summer. This is my first official thread, so be gentle! :kiss:

I had originally intended for this to be a reply to the "Will the Wall Fall?" thread, but it ended up being longer than I had intended so I just made my own topic about it. The Wall is definitely on the verge of collapsing, either physically or metaphorically, the Night 's Watch will be no more. I think Jon will play a large role in bringing it down -- but how?

This scene from Dany's visit to the House of the Undying is almost certainly related to Jon and his placement at the Wall. I have no doubts about the validity of R+L=J. However, I have come to see the potential meaning behind this segment of the prophecy much differently than when I had first read it.

I used to be pretty sold on the idea that Jon was Azor Ahai reborn/The Prince that was Promised/The Last Hero and one of the 3 Heads of the Dragon, so my first interpretation of this piece was that Jon would have a hand in defeating the Others and bringing about the end to the Long Night. The imagery of a flower growing out of ice brings to mind the end of winter and the coming of spring. The sweetness likely indicates that Jon will be a useful ally and a potential love interest for Dany.

Like I said, I used to be quite sold on this theory; I had begrudgingly accepted that there could be a chance of a union between Jon and Dany, and that the freaky red witch Melisandre might actually be on to something. Now, not so much. I am really intrigued by the arguments that have been brought up in the Heresy threads. I am quite fond of the idea that the Others/White Walkers may not be the ultimate evil we have been lead to believe and that R'hllor/Azor Ahai/Dany & her dragons may in fact be false saviors -- especially Dany. I think that we will be seeing a negative shift in her character in the future. I don't think she will become an outright Villain, but she is definitely headed into antagonist territory. It is unlikely that she will ever come to terms with the fact that the Targaryen Dynasty was rightfully displaced. Her ordeal at the end of aDwD and the impending second installment of the Dance of Dragons will probably fuel her delusions and sense of entitlement, and the madness that plagued her father and many other Targaryen kings will begin to show its ugly, inbred face. Dany will be co consumed in the struggle for the Iron Throne that she won't spare the conflict in the North a second glance.

These ideas have made me see things, like this part of the prophecy, in a completely different light than I once had. Let's have another look.

Before, I had thought that the Wall would be rendered useless because the Evil Others would be vanquished and the Eternal Summer would be at hand. Now, however, the imagery of the flower growing out of a chink, or crack in a wall of ice brings to mind something else entirely. I do not remember seeing this suggested anywhere, so forgive me if this has actually already been beaten to death and I just wasn't looking hard enough :blushing:. The blue flower (being Jon) has created a fissure in the foundation of the Wall; a fissure that could bring the entire infrastructure down around itself. Thinking about this possibility actually reminds me of Edgar Allen Poe's The Fall of the House of Usher. So if anyone is familiar with this story, I suppose that is what I am trying to get at here.

As for the sweetness, I really enjoyed this thread examining the negative connotations that sweetness holds in regards to Dany's arc. It is likely that this is bad news for her. If R+L=J proves to be true it places Jon ahead of Dany in the line of succession for the Iron Throne. I have a feeling that Dany will not be willing to compete with or share power with anyone, even if they might be one of the 3 Heads of the Dragon. She will only see him as a threat. However, I doubt Jon would have any interest in snatching the Iron Throne from her.

I also believe that Dany's entitlement will ulimately cost her the throne, as she has shown in the books that she is destructive, not constructive and Westeros needs a monarch like Jon, who is constructive.

[DragonDreamer]

I also believe that Dany's entitlement will ulimately cost her the throne, as she has shown in the books that she is destructive, not constructive and Westeros needs a monarch like Jon, who is constructive.

Dany is surely destructive, she's destroying the slave industry in Slavers Bay, Bow, that's the kind of destruction I can get behind.

[Gogossos]

I think if GRRM had wanted Dany to be entangled by the game of thrones, he would've integrated her sooner. The fact he makes her hang back makes me believe he wants her for the most major fight, against the Others. Sure, the Others could be benevolent and Dany antagonistic but I tend to think that heading towards the end the series will get more convectional.

However, inspired by the OP, I now think that the chink is not on the wall itself but the Nightswatch. As it is, Jon has already caused a fissure in the organisation which might even be permanent.

[ghosts in winterfell]

yup if we include him as a Stark then he is my Second fav. The first is Ned and the third is Robb. I can see with the Ide's of Marsh that the magic of the Wall that keeps the Others out may stop working. So the Wall may not even have to physically fall for it to become irrelevant.

Bran would have to be my #1, and its actually more of a tie between Jon & Sansa for second.

Anyways, its certainly true that the Wall's downfall need not be literal/physical. Although I think it would make a hell of a prologue/epilogue:

Somewhere in the southron regions, a mysterious and ominous earthquake brings the squabbling over the Iron Throne to a brief stand-still.

"The fuck was that?"

"Who cares? MY RIGHTS!!!1!1"

The squabbling resumes, and everyone is too caught up in the Game of Thrones to see the storm that is about it hit.

[alienarea]

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice and filled the air with sweetness

Please note it says flower, then google blue flower symbolism.

A rose is a flower, but not all flowers are roses.

Death also fills the air with sweetness.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know why people are so dismissive of Danm's sweetness catch. Seems quite like something GRRM would do, actually.

[MoIaF]

I don't know why people are so dismissive of Danm's sweetness catch. Seems quite like something GRRM would do, actually.

The issue I have is that it's not really a pattern. Not a page before Dany sees this vision she herself uses sweetness in a positive way. For it to truly be a patter ever instance of sweetness in Dany's chapter should be negative. If there are positive instances then how are we to discern the difference?

Furthermore, the actual word is use appropriately within it's context, there is no instance in which the word itself is used outside of it traditional use. The negatives uses are either oxymorons, ironies or sarcasms all which fit the context in which they are used.

There is a better explanation of this starting here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=4917203

ETA: As for the actual imagery of the flower growing from a chink of ice, I associated with the symbolism of a flower growing from a crack in asphalt. This is seen as a symbol of hope, perseverance and resilience. Take it away Tupac: "The Rose That Grew from Concrete" http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-rose-that-grew-from-concrete-2/

[Warden of the Cheesy]

Quick nugget here, I assume you also believe that R+L were married by your comment about him being before Dany in the line of succession. They would have to be for Jon to be considered a Targaryen. If they weren't, Jon would be considered a bastard with no claims whatsoever...Unless someone legitmizes him, which I don't think anyone with the power to do that would because his claim would instantly be better than anyone elses.

[Warden of the Cheesy]

Also Ice was taken apart and made into two separate swords, Oathbreaker and the one that Joffery received as a wedding gift from Tywin. Unless you are referring to a completely different sword that I have never heard of.