[Book spoilers] How dark will show Tyrion be portrayed?

[My friend Alayne Arya mad]

RW was very objective and a must-have. In fact, the RW scene was not as dark as in the books. We did not see Cat scratching out skin of her own face and going catatonic.

Theon's torture was gory but does not qualify as "too dark" as one could argue that he deserved it.

I'm pretty sure they covered "dark" by having a lovable pregnant character stabbed repeatedly.

[Dagon]

I'm pretty sure they covered "dark" by having a lovable pregnant character stabbed repeatedly.

The dvd should have a short therapeutic debriefing video after that episode to help hapless viewers recuperate.

[Hajk]

I really don't know how they're going to make Shae get strangled. They went out of their way to make Shae personable, like making her give a crap about Sansa. At the same time it's critical to Tyrion's development so I'll be watching intently on how they handle it.

She even tries to help Sansa hide the fact that she has become a woman and can have Joffrey's children, threatening to kill the other maid if she were to tell the queen etc. Of course then the Hound sees it and there is no hope of stopping him (I wonder if book Sandor would have cared to tell the queen).

ETA: Maybe they'll show that Shae was actually in Tywin's bed seducing him and trying to persuade him to save Tyrion from death and send him to the wall instead. That may be more plausible.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

FacelessManFriday. I think you have just pointed out what I often feel so many readers miss, we just don't have any idea as to what Shea felt at all. ALL we have is Tyrions' interpretation of what she says & does.

Look at the facts.

We have Shea's account of why she has turned to prostitution, Her father tried to make her his Kitchen Wench and his Whore, so we have a young girl who has run from an abusive exploitative home where her father was raping her, or had made it clear she was going to be sexually abused by him as well as be made to be essentially a slave.

She is very beautiful, she is also very young being born in 281 which puts her at 17 at the start of the series. So a woman but still very young,

Bronn brought her to Tyrion, so we have no reason to believe she is a plant by Tywin, yes he could have sent her to Bronn, but we have Bronns own account of how he found her and as he is his own man I'm inclined to believe him.

he brings her to KL and sets her up in a town house, where she is forbidden from going out into KL and has to basically sit around waiting for him to show up and have sex with her. he does not pay her in cash, which she could use to escape, he gifts her gowns & jewels and provides a nice home and food. Its a shit load better than anything else she's ever experienced in her life but she is still a captive essentially. Even going so far as to have a singer whom she befriends murdered and fed to the cities poor.

but as the battle of the blackwater approaches he decides to move her to the Red Keep, to kepp her safe, well she can no longer enjoy the comforts which passed as pay, she cannot wear her gowns, nor her jewels and instead of enjoying rich food and leisure time she is a servant. He still is not paying her in stags or dragons so how prey tell can she do one?

he even decided after he has now made her maid to his wife, that he will marry her off to ser Tallad in order to protect her from suspicion, so he's not only fucking her without paying her & keeping her trapped within the Red Keep, but he's decided he'll grant another man, not of her choosing the privilege to fuck her too!

After he is arrested Cersei approaches her to testify, she either threatens or bribes her to speak against Tyrion, and she does. She lies that he & sansa conspired to kill the King and she reveals their affair, even intimate details. But I ask you why the hell should she have died for him to keep his secrets? its very likely she had no real options, and if she could gain a stab at a good life, one which she previously had no hope of attaining why the hell not?

And she sleeps with Tywin and again I ask did she have a choice, imagine you are a young whore, and the most powerful man in the realms wants you in his bed. Yea I bet you 'd feel so empowered to refuse him...

[barmyscouser]

I always thought Roz was cheerful in spite of her life. rather than because of it. She gets along with Tyrion, pities Theon and hates Jeoff. She certainly is seen as vulnerable to violence. Whatever Jeoff's sexuality was I think he died before he figured it out.

[barmyscouser]

On TV Shea is offered a big bag of gemstones if she'll just bugger off and keep her head down. I thought the same thing happened in print only it was Tyrion in the books and Varys on the show.

?

[Blow My Horn]

Poor, poor Shae. Forced to endure the life of protection and wealth while living in King's Landing. Oh the humanity of it all!!! Next we'll see comparisons to Lady Hornwood...

Maybe Bronn is/was his own man or maybe HE was the Tywin spy.

[Woman of War]

This is a very good point, and a great example of how people judge Shae as being deserving of her fate. She was simply telling them the truth, he may never have said you will call me my giant of Lannister but it was pretty clear to her that he liked it and that her job was to make him happy. She was just doing her job. People seem to often think Shae should have died for him rather than take the stand, she was just trying her best to stay alive, something I am hoping he will realise now that he has seen life at the other end of the social scale.

No, Shae was NOT telling the truth at the trial.

She accused both Tyrion and Sansa to have plotted together and to have planned Joffrey's murder while it is obvious that she can' t have heard anything like that. Actually she can't have heard anything, even a misunderstanding can be excluded since in the books Tyrion and Sansa barely ever spoke.

And that approach "what could she do, she was only a whore" can be highly disriminatory too, as if a sex worker were somehow a morally lesser being for whom the rules of decent behaviour do not count since she is a "whore" and has to lie. Lying is part of the job description of sex workers, but not only them. Doctors, hairdressers or saleswomen sometimes tell their clients what clients want to hear, just like sex workers. Does this make them entitled to lie in court? Certainly not! For sex workers, just like for hairdressers, count the same rules of lawful behaviour and basic human decency like for anyone else.

Shae may have been under pressure from Cersei but she seems to have lied far more creatively and convincing than what was expected, she swore a perjury. Need I mention that this is no reason for murder.....a disclaimer like that should really not be necessary in a quality debate. But Shae indeed owed Tyrion something: she owed him what a citizen owes any other citizen : not to lie under oath, especially if it may cost his life.

Don't get me wrong, I like the character of book Shae. The streetwise selfmadewoman who fights for a good life, actually the books are short of commoner female characters with at least some strength. No one may have shown any caring and empathy towards Shae, so she never has learned to feel empathy for others, neither for Lollys nor for Sansa. She got the promise of wealth form Tyrion, she got money even if he kept her fancy styling locked up because she was endangering herself. Shae gambled for a good life and she lost in the end.

HBO Shae is completely different, call her a trope but she is the victim that has decided to empathise with other victims, to be protective even, since she may have had it far worse than Sansa in life. If they do not considerably darken her or make everything an Othello-like misunderstanding then murdering her will shed a lot of grey on Tyrion. I guess Martin will in future books invest a lot of writing skills into turning Tyrion's arc around after his character has been kept on the edge for a while. The showmakers should follow Martin's intention here. They should show drunk and depressed Tyrion insulting the people in Illyrio's house, maybe even hatefuck the prostitute in Selhorys and yet with a quality actor like Dinklage they can keep the audience sympathize with the guy who has lost it all. If it is well done Tyrion may become evn more relatable and "real" in his torment.

Even a die hard Tyrion fan like me would not want this complex character simplified, would not want him spared the worst that is so story defining for this hugely interesting protagonist.

[Heir to Winterfell]

It's going to be difficult to portray his true darkness because, aside from the rape, the majority of his darkness is in his own head. His brooding is internal, while on the exterior he is able to carry on as a dwarf with a price on his head.

[Ser Not Appearing]

I've always thought that their relationship in the books was pretty deep, actually.

I think you have to really view it from his eyes only to "get" what GRRM is showing you. Shea's perspective isn't crucial to the story. Her views would matter if it were real life and they do relate to the overall justice of things... but what she thinks isn't the story being told. The story being told and the character building is what Tyrion thinks she thinks and how that plays with what he thinks and what results from this.

He has a history of falling in love with a girl who it turns out (he thought) was paid to pretend to love him. He then has a life long affinity for whores culminating in his relationship with Shea. The tragedy (or a tragedy among many) of their relationship is that he comes to see it as more than a pay for service thing. He didn't take advantage of Shea (stopped paying her). He loved her. In his mind he elevated the nature of their relationship. It has a very strong tie to his Tysha relationship. Fast forward to her not treating the relationship as the same... mocking him, betraying him, diminishing the nature of their relationship to save herself (right or wrong)... it is a huge betrayal to Tyrion. Once again he loved a whore and thought, this time knowing it and accepting it at the outset, and thought she reciprocated but it meant nothing to her. He was just a grotesque and regrettable John Doe. Not even as good as others.

Then he learns that Tysha wasn't a whore and his father orchestrated the rape and shaming of a legitimate wife and nice girl Tyrion had loved. Then he finds Shae in his father's bed - the man so against whores who also, it turns out, had taken the girl Tyrion loved and turned her into one. His father took Shae as well. Maybe not in the same way he took Tysha but he took her none the less. Everyone he loves betrays him, including Shae. Everyone hates him. Life is unfair, time to drink and self-pity.

That is Tyrion's view and it's all that matters in a story that centers around him. Shae's views are dispensible in terms of the telling of the story. Again, not the same as her views being unimportant as a matter of justice or if it was real life... but in this story she is simply a plot device to show us who Tyrion is and what drove him to that place.

Show Shae strikes me as more petulant and entitled and definitely more clearly suggesting to Tyrion that their relationship means more. How they resolve that will be interesting.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Is that really a concern anymore, after the RW and Theon's torture porn?

Jeyne Poole. I really hope they include her(and they might have considering a split second scene in the trailer with a girl running from something/one

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Snip.

snip

I said she was telling the truth regarding their sex life, the bit about him liking her to call him her giant of Lannister, well she did call him that and it would have apeared to her that he liked it. I don't refute that she lied through her teeth regarding Sansa & His plotting to kill Joffrey.

"And that approach "what could she do, she was only a whore" can be highly disriminatory too, as if a sex worker were somehow a morally lesser being for whom the rules of decent behaviour do not count since she is a "whore" and has to lie. Lying is part of the job description of sex workers, but not only them. Doctors, hairdressers or saleswomen sometimes tell their clients what clients want to hear, just like sex workers. Does this make them entitled to lie in court? Certainly not! For sex workers, just like for hairdressers, count the same rules of lawful behaviour and basic human decency like for anyone else. "

Saying that Shae was powerless to go against Cersei or Tywin is not descrimitory, I am not suggesting that as a sex worker she gets a free pass on lying or is not subject to the same rules lawful behaviour or human decency as everyone else. Your suggesting that is just absurd. As a Whore Shae is part of the lowest class of society in Westeros.

As such she is powerless against the richest and most powerful people in Westeros AKA Cersei and Tywin. When Cersei comes to Sansa's bedmaid and works to extract information, and as this is Cersei I think its safe to say she wasn't asking politely, and that bedmaid turns out to have been the concubine of Tyrion do you think Cersei would say OK so will you please testify in court that he did it? It is suggested that Cersei offered Shae legitimacy in return for the lies, a knight to wed, and money, safety and security. Not something she has ever had. She tells us that she was a kitchen pot scrubber for her father and that he also raped her, she ran away because of this, she was poor to start with but is now destitute she never says at what age she ran away but as she is 17 or 18 when she meets Tyrion and seems to be quite street wise saying that she recognises Varys even though he is disguised as a whore learns to see the man not the clothes, or she ends up dead in an alley. I'd say she's been a whore some time.

How does she owe him not to lie under oath, I'm sorry but this is just projecting modern moral values of the privileged onto her. In her position I'd lie and lie again if it meant keeping my head and receiving the chance of a better life than I had previously, and fuck it, Tyrion is screwed regardless of Shae's testimony. She is not the only person who took the stand that day and Cersei was determined Tyrion be found guilty. Add to this that Shae may well have been told Tyrion will be offered the Black & not executed and she has a chance to gain a better life from it, well I don't begrudge her.

I care nought for HBO Shae the character is ludicrous, she is not the character in the books.

SerNotAppearing I agree Shae's POV is not required to tell the story of Tyrions decent into self destructive depression, My whole point though is not about what Shae's feeling actually are but more that I dislike the readership displaying such repulsive woman hatred by saying she deserved to be murdered.

She didn't my whole point is that when we look at her story in depth we see that its not actually certain that things are as Tyrion saw them.

Even he has to remind himself she is a whore and he is a fool to think she loves him. He falls in love with her, we are never told she loves him. If she betrayed him then it is understandable and not IMO at all deserving of death. Don't forget the facts. She was procured on the battle field by Bronn, we can not give credence to any silly notion he may be Tywins man, for goodness sake. Tywin just happened to know Tyrion & Cat would meet at the Inn he predicted Cat would abduct tyrion even though at this point there is no war happening and Robert is still alive! He instructed Bronn to switch sides on the way to the Erie(where he assumed Cat would take tyrion.) And he.....well I don't think I need to expand on that its so silly its a joke.

So Shae is procured by Bronn and she tells Tyrion why she is a whore, I can understand why a young girl would run away from being in servitude and being incestuously abused. There is not a lot a young penniless girl child can do to get by but as she is pretty whoring is the obvious result of her situation.

As I've already explained camp follower level of prostitution offers little by the way of security, a John is quite likely to beat you rape you rob you kill you. etc. Tyrion offers her a place as concubine to the Hand of the King, she quite rightly snaps his arm off, but when they arrive he quickly isolates her, keeping her under guard and in solitude with a bird and servants being her only company, eventually the situation in KL reaches boiling point and he throws a glass of wine against a wall so close to her that she is hit by the shards, he tells her he is taking away the nice things he has paid for her services with and she must be a kitchen maid in the Red Keep, she protests and reminds him her father made her scrub pots and that is why she ran away, she hated it as she hated his cock inside her. He could at this point give her her severance pay and send her on her way, but instead he smacks her across the face, she has scolded him that he is a grown man and other men keep bedwarmers and why can't he. She changes her voice it becomes wooden, "Beg pardon m'lord" "I never meant to be impudent" So she is taken to the red keep and becomes a servant, though still has to have sex with Tyrion, now if she loved him and they were a couple and she was begging to be there and will endure the misery of servitude in order to be by his side, well that would be a different tale. I think its the one he's telling himself. But its probably not the one Shae is. The only person whom she gets to interact with in the Manse the singer is sent away and eventually murdered by Tyrion.

Tyrion even as I've said presumes to marry her off without her consent! in what world does she owe him anything? if anything is owed its a lot of Dragons to Shae as he never bloody paid her, and what she did receive was taken away!!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

haha, there's more, after he smacks her in the face, he tells her "That was ill done" "on both our parts" so after he hits her he tells her it was her own fault!! what for exactly? for telling him she does't want to be made to scrub pots and saying that she could be a bedwarmer, that tons of men have them in the Red Keep, and that he was a grown up and should stand up to his father. So for speaking out of turn she deserved that smack? Good golly.

He tells her all about Tysha, as if this excuses his behaviour? or is he trying tit for tat after she reminded him of her abuse at her fathers hands? Look love i know your daddy raped you and made you a slave, But my dad had my wife raped and raped some more, gosh I even raped her myself! so you don't have it as bad as me love. So please no more talk of teh Tower of the Hand, you'll only be in the kitchen a short while, and then I'll get you a manse again and more silks. She says her hands will be red and cracked and he won't want her any more. This is fair enough, hows she to trust his word? He could easily leave her to rot in the kitchens and get a new whore, one with softer hands and fewer lines from scrubbing and getting up at the crack of dawn to light ovens.

She eventually says I am yours to command m'lord. he leaves and says I will send for you.

Even Tyrion mentions (more than once) that he can't read her during this chapter, that she is not giving away her feelings. Could that be because she is unhappy and a good whore doesn't show her upset to the man who pays her. Well he's about to stop paying her and take away all the payment she's had so far. so she can't even sell her jewels and silver and gowns and get out of dodge.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Given that Shea's perspective is largely irrelevant to the story... if we're looking at her anyway then there is a difficult dichotomy. Either you view her as a noble being, equal to others and worthy of a fair/good life... or you view her story from within the context of the world created and she actually is a second rate citizen and is lucky to find whatever joys she can. In the former, her life sucks and one is probably left feeling totally sympathetic. In the latter, her life sucks and still sympathy because we are not of the mindset of Westeros and the contrast between our life and hers should evoke a bit of an emotional "poor Shae"... but she is also rightfully seen as pretty lucky to have Tyrion treating her as he does.

He raised the status of her life and would have been happy to make her his full wife were that in his power (according to my reading of the story). There should be at least some good consideration for whether or not she does owe him something for that. That doesn't mean she does... but the realities of her life in that world do beg the question because he did much for her. I don't think that readership is necessarily wrong to conclude that she was wrong to betray him. Depending on how strongly someone feels, I might even agree to an extent. It is a very gray matter because although she turned her back on a man who saw her as more than a camp follower and who did try to protect her in ways that he thought were best... you'd also have to consider that from her perspective she only has one life and even if she appreciates some things about Tyrion, if she doesn't love him then why die for him? Why not continue scraping and kicking and and lying and using her body in whatever ways it takes to rise up, even to a degree, from the crummy life that she were cast into by virtue of birth and a crap society?

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

'..He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf..."It might please m'lord to strangle you. That's how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me." This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted..'

I love this part from Tyrion in Pentos & hope some form of it makes it to the show. Tyrion trying on a more sinister persona after is infamy escaping KL. That will have to be a component of his Essos storyline. Tyrion is a survivor, and he has to adapt several times to his circumstances on a new continent w/o his wealth or family to help him. That will necessitate being "darker" at times, & understandably so.

[Colonel Green]

The show doesn't have that limitation so maybe GRRM will have some input into Shae's side of things when it comes to the trial.

GRRM's input wouldn't really be that useful, since TV!Shae is a completely different character with completely different motivations.

We do not have the benefit of a POV from Shae. For the most part all we have is Tyrion's viewpoint on their relationship. Could his infatuation with Shae blinded him as to how Shae viewed the relationship?...Or as hinted more in the show than the book would she do anything to protect Sansa and knew that if she pinned it solely on Tyrion she could save Sansa?

Book!Shae didn't "[pin] it solely on Tyrion". She said she saw both of them plotting to murder Joffrey.

[Faceless Man Friday]

GRRM's input wouldn't really be that useful, since TV!Shae is a completely different character with completely different motivations.

Book!Shae didn't "[pin] it solely on Tyrion". She said she saw both of them plotting to murder Joffrey.

Good point. Even if we get the motivations of TV Shae it does not mean Book Shae had the same motivations.

[Woman of War]

I am convinced that Tyrion never intended to cheat on Shae concerning her salary. This would have been totally ridiculous since he has never been describes as a miser, on the contrary., he pays his debts. And given his Lannister wealth he probably could have afforded fifty Shaes, she probably cost him not more than his monthly bill at KL bookshops.

No, Tyrion was inconsiderate and arrogant when he locked up Shae's fancy stuff. He did not bother to explain to her how dangerous it was to wear rich fashion whe she was to hide as chambermaid. It would have taken a few explanations, then maybe Shae would have listened or not.

But Shae might not have listened. While she was rather streetwise when it came to situations within her range of experience she could not evaluate the scheming and the politics at court, she did not grasp the subtleties of social hierarchy at court (in the movies represented by her insisting that she has a name - but not a SECOND name). In short: she was naive about her possibilities as social climber, and that made her a danger to herself.

And we get the conflict Tyrion is in about sending her away. He knows he should but, given his longing for anything that resembles a close relationship, he can't. In her naivité Shae makes him keep her, against his better knowledge. She is gambling here and she will lose in the end.

Apart from that: Tyrion not even seriously suggested to Shae a marriage, he considered the possibility to arrange something for her, not more evil than any Westerosi father did with a daughter. And so far there had not even been any opportunity to present his plan to her. Only if Shae had said no it would have been no since Shae was woman enough to look after herself while a nobility girl might be forced to give in.

I will not excuse the murder of the singer but the alternative for Tyrion would have been getting blackmailed as long as Shae is there and she might have been hanged because of nice Symon who was a true friend, threatening her life.

Granted, Tyrion could have packed Shae on a ship to somewhere against her will, for her safety. And then we would have a shitstorm here in these forums about Tyrion treating her as if she were cattle.

If this were possible for him he would not have need of a relationship with Shae, he would be the handsome tall nice uncomplicated simple noble guy who in time got a nice uncomplicated compliant nobility wife, they would have three nice kids by now. He would offer himself a whore from time to time without complications.

In short: he would not be the creative literary invention Tyrion. He would not have that twisted emotional life, greedy for anything that looks remotely like recognition and love - and we would not have a story.

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

So your saying she hated Tyrion and her time with him as he was short & ugly, that's not conjecture? Cough cough....I don't think we as readers are ever privy to what Shae actually felt for Tyrion at all seeing as we are never given a POV.

I totally understand WHY he killed her, I just am a bit sickened by the readership section who say she deserved to die or that seem to think she owed him something? She owes him nothing, He wanted to be loved so he pays a whore to "love" him. I mean its really naive of him to expect that prostitute to actually fall in love with him, especially as he has trapped her in a dangerous position

1.Come on, you are smarter than that. I have prefaced my point with maybe to make a point about conjecture, and we can’t go down the path of what Shae might feel as you have said yourself we don’t have her POV.

2. I fully agree with your second point, it is a business transaction and Shae can’t be accused of using him. The readership who think he owes her, have their own personal issues. They will be the same type of person who pay for a meal or helped a person with school work and demand something else in return.

3. I can understand Tyrion killing her. The fact Tyrion is looking for love with book Shae is ridiculous, she isn’t with him for love and he is aware of this but has got attached to her. As a reader I admire Tysha, who is his true love. That’s why I am really not happy with the portrayal of TV Shae as the protector of Sansa and in love with Tyrion. I really hope he kills her and she was just using him. It makes a better narrative IMO.

[Seneti]

By the end of season 4 and onwards after that, the show will be covering a different Tyrion to what viewers of the show have seen so far. The Tysha revelation from Jaime, the dealing with Daddy issues even after he kills him, the long contemplations of what his place is in the world is with JonCon and Aegon and later on the ship to Mereen. Amongst his journey in Essos, Tyrion has had some dark and twisted thoughts including suicidal and some sick thoughts of what he wants to do to some people.

Will the show be ballsy and show that extent of darkness to his character in the upcoming seasons? Everyone loves quick-witted jester underdog Tyrion, so I could understand them not wanting to stray too far. I know Peter Dinklage could pull off Tyrion's state of mind through Essos though, so would love it if they did go full on emo with him.

I think they will make him a considerably darker character, but not quite as dark as the books.

Things I'm sure they will include (in chronological order):

- Tyrion learning about Tysha and lying to Jaime (they have almost the entire season to explain his first marriage)

- Tyrion killing Shae (not necessarily strangling her, but still killing her) and Tywin

- Tyrion drowning his sorrows

- Tyrion being rude and snapping at everyone he meets (pre-Penny)

- Tyrion buying the red-head prostitute in Volantis

Things I don't think they'll include:

- his endless travelogue with Illyrio

- Tyrion raping the red-head in Volantis (I think his "I'm f***ing a corpse" realisation will come before the sex in the show)

- Tyrion talking about raping Cersei (substitue "rape" with "murder")

So, no, I don't think Tyrion will be quite as dark as in the books, but his transformation will still come as a shock to viewers.