[Book spoilers] How dark will show Tyrion be portrayed?

[jons nissa]

- Tyrion talking about raping Cersei (substitue "rape" with "murder")

So, no, I don't think Tyrion will be quite as dark as in the books, but his transformation will still come as a shock to viewers.

how incredible that substituting rape with murder makes one less dark.

and sadly, the majority of readers and viewers will agree with this.

[WeddinGuest]

how incredible that substituting rape with murder makes one less dark.

and sadly, the majority of readers and viewers will agree with this.

What do you find "sad' about it? I've seen the "rape is no big deal compared to actual murder" argument here before, and also the "torture is no big deal compared to actual murder" argument as well. However, while the crime of murder is "worse" than rape to many people (though not all - there are cultures in which rape victims are expected to kill themselves to rid themselves of shame), I think you can certainly argue that the average rapist is darker than the average killer, because there are many, many mitigating factors for killing someone, such as acting in self-defense (or perceived self-defense), in the heat of the moment, attempting just to injure someone but winding up killing them, etc. Seeking vengeance for the death of a loved one also seems to be acceptable to many, note how even Brienne, who is touted as one of the "whitest" characters in the series, has vowed to kill Stannis to avenge Renly, and still hasn't repudiated that vow, though certainly her quest to find Sansa has taken precedence so far.

However, I can't think of any mitigating factors for rape that a modern audience would accept, other than, perhaps, "I was coerced to do it by someone else", which is the main mitigating factor for Tyrion's involvement in the rape of Tysha; I suppose the "I didn't know the victim wasn't consenting" defense might be applied here as well. But I doubt most modern TV watchers would accept "it wasn't illegal to rape my wife, so it wasn't immoral" or "it was war, my blood was up, I couldn't help myself", or "she deserved to be raped for revenge", or "I was feeling really depressed and down on myself".

All that being said, the GOT show DID actually depict Drogo raping Dany (they cut away for the wedding night scene, but they actually show him striding into Dany's tent and mounting her in another episode, and it's obvious she's no more consenting to that than Sansa would have to Tyrion), swearing an oath to rape and pillage Westeros, and overseeing the rape and pillage of the lamb people (yes he agrees to Dany's request to spare some of the women, but it's obvious he's just doing it as a favor to her), but also portrayed Dany's grief over his death as appropriate, honored him with a cameo in the House of the Undying, etc. And as far as I can tell, most show watchers don't think Drogo is a horrible man with no redeeming features.

So, I don't think it's a given that the show will shy away from "Tyrion committing rape". I suppose it's possible they'll have him get very close to it and refrain, much as they sanitized how far he went with Sansa on their wedding night - he stops it even before she undresses, while in the books, he had her undressed, undressed himself, and grabbed her breast, before coming to his senses.

[Nictarion]

RW was very objective and a must-have. In fact, the RW scene was not as dark as in the books. We did not see Cat scratching out skin of her own face and going catatonic.

Theon's torture was gory but does not qualify as "too dark" as one could argue that he deserved it.

No, we did see a pregnant woman stabbed to death though.

And showing someone castrated and have their finger flayed on tv is dark, no matter what the person did.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Snip.

Wether or not he meant to cheat her out of her wages is irrelevant, as the point is Shae had every reason to screw him over at the trial and every right to sell her cunt to Tywin and Tyrion had absolutely no justification in killing her for that.

So from Shae's viewpoint he reneged on payment and pushed her from her profession into servitude, a thing which she had told him she could not abide. Tyrion comes to her and tells her she will be a kitchen maid, he does not ask her if she will consent to this arrangement, he does not offer her as he ought to the chance to be paid and leave taking her things with her. He throws a glass shouts and hits her and tells her she must become a servant. The fact she is not content to do this is plain, she tells him so, she explains why, she offers an alternative and then after the physical assault she submits to his social class, " Beg Pardon M'Lord, I never meant to be Impudent." his smack was a reminder that he holds all the cards, that he can have the Ibaneese guard kill her at any time, she does not know he would not do this, she has her own life experience to draw on, you dip your head and you submit to the lords or you can be killed with the click of his fingers. This is how life in Westeros for the smallfolk is, we see it in the tale the bloody mummers tell of the inn keep who had no choice but to watch them rape his daughter and then give them change, and in Roose Bolton raping the millers wife and having him killed. What we know of Tyrion is not important we have the privilege of being in his head Shae only knows the life she has lived, the things she has endured and witnessed. She has grown cheeky with Tyrion as he is clearly very fond of her but the smack across the face is a stark reminder that she has no choice.

Shae may have been naive about the possibility of being kept as bedwarmer, and allowed some finery in that position, but she is not wrong many men at court have bedwarmers, even Maester Pycelle has one. She is naive in thinking Tyrion can stand up to his father. She never met Tywin and does not know that he barely tolerates his son and that he would likely make good on his promise to hang her if he discovered her at court. That was unrealistic of her to suggest, but it by no means makes Tyrion keep her against his better knowledge, his longing for a close relationship is tragic its a huge part of his character and its the reason he selfishly keeps Shae even though he knows her life is in serious danger by doing so, but it does not make it her responsibility. I'm bewildered to read this line actually. It sounds like some kind of sick victim blaming.

"And we get the conflict Tyrion is in about sending her away. He knows he should but, given his longing for anything that resembles a close relationship, he can't. In her naivité Shae makes him keep her, against his better knowledge. She is gambling here and she will lose in the end."

Shae is a very young and very vulnerable woman, she does not have any power at all in this world, she is in KL she has no friends, no family, nothing to enable her to get out unless Tyrion grants her leave to go, he does not in a violent and aggresivly loaded outburst he insists she be made a kitchen maid, she can't say actually I'd rather leave KL if you don't mind. She has no chopice here. Tyrion is in charge and its his descision to keep her around and to remove the payments he has made to her. He knows he is placing her in danger by bringing her into the Red Keep, he knows she might wind up dead but because he desperatly wants to carry on the sharade of having someone to love & be loved by he pushes these thoughts out of his head and forges on with his plan to keep Shae close by.

She is not responsible for his decisions ( I can't believe I am actually having to point that out)

Tyrion is not her father, she is not his property, he has no right to even consider marrying her off without consent.

I have never suggested Symion was anything other than a scoundral who indeed would have sold her for a silver stag. But he was the only human she had contact with who was not in Tyrion employment the whole time she was in that Manse, she was isolated and the only person whom she did speak to was killed by the man who was keeping her isolated. I'm trying to point out that the relationship when looked at from outside of Tyrions viewpoint doesn't look so rosy.

"Granted, Tyrion could have packed Shae on a ship to somewhere against her will, for her safety. And then we would have a shitstorm here in these forums about Tyrion treating her as if she were cattle."

My point though is that even though Tyrion never acknowledges what he is doing with Shae, instead lying to himself that he and she are in love. That he is indeed treating her like chattle. He is pushing her into a place where she no longer has autonomy, freedom of movement or even choice over her means of making a living.

He is sending her somewhere against her will, the kitchens of the Red Keep!

I'm not really sure what your last point is? I don't think its at all relevant to point out that if he were not a malformed dwarf he would have no need of Shae as he would have a nice high born wife and kiddies and be perfectly happy.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I also found this from ASOS. I think its very interesting and gives a few more clues and hints as to Shae's true feelings about her situation with Tyrion.

Tyrion has been recovering from his injuries and Varys and he conspire to steal his Shae away from Lady Lollys. ( whom she is handmaid to only as Varys sorted it, not Tyrion who was ok with making her a kitchen maid who would have pot boys slipping into her bed, the cook groping her etc. a handmaid is far safer from assault and abuse than a kitchen maid. Varys did this for her, not tyrion.) So Tyrion awaits her in Vary's chambers she places her hands over his eyes and is already naked. she kisses him hungrily and does not even seem to notice his scars. she insists he fuck her right away and mounts him she fucks him fast yelling my giant my giant my giant he quickly comes, she grins wickedly, she asks about her jewels, can she have them back? where are they? Varys would not give them to her, what would have happened to them if Tyrion had died?

Seems to me that she wants to get it over and done with and then wants to know where her payment is before his cock is even limp. He tells her she can stay with Lady Lolly if she likes but it would be safer if she left the city, she says I do not want to leave you promised me a manse and my silks and jewels. I want to stay I want to go to the wedding feast Symon has been telling me how spectacular it will be. Tyrion says no she can not and eventually it is left at that she returns to Lollys and he to give the order to find Symon.

You could look at this exchange and think she desperatly missed him , that she does not indeed mind the scar and that she was desperate to fuck him out of desire, that she begged to stay as she want to be with him.

Or you could look at it this way, she wants to get the sex out of the way as fast as possible, she wants her payment back, she wants the further payment he had promised her of a manse and a nice cushy life as concubine. She is not happy that he refuses her these things. He tells her she ought to leave but does not offer to pay her her owed jewels and anything she has earned since the time in the manse.

She asked to be allowed to the wedding yes this is folly, but she wants to be able to dress up and have fun this is not a crime, just foolish. Maybe she was hoping to find a new patron at the wedding.

he completely avoids telling her where her jewels are or when he will return them, or even if he will. It would appear to Shae that he has no intention of ever giving them back. even after she reminds him he said a Lannister always pays his debts. Towards the end of their exchange she asks him if he is her lion still, her giant of Lannister? this is after she is told to hurry and dress and return to lollys. Is she asking if she is still his concubine in spite of the lowly position of handmaid she has been placed in? or is it a sweet nothing between lovers? he replies i am, and you're.... she butts in "your Whore." A reminder that this is what she is, not his lady love. she says I know if you could I'd be your lady and you'd take me to the feast, but this can never be etc. But assures him she likes being his whore, "just keep me,my lion and keep me safe." is she saying I don't mind I love you I just want to be with you anyway we can? or is she saying I am a whore and don't you forget it, I am ok with being a whore, I want to remain in your service but you must keep me ( ie in a good standard of care) and keep me safe. Its his job if he wants her to keep her safe.

Soon after he wishes to tell her of the marriage plans to Sansa,but she knows already and is not bothered, he even thinks to himself that he had thought she would be more upset, well derr Tyrion why would a whore be remotely phased that her patron is getting wed, what is it to her.

[Woman of War]

I am not going into answering in detail to you, Weirwood Eyes, since we obviously have a different onlook on the events, topics that have been discussed a hundred times in these forums. I would only repost myself. You have your opinion and I have mine, both are equally valid. And of course our evaluation is not only coloured by facts we see but by our like and dislike of Tyrion, since we both seem to like the character of Shae.

But since the book details are, given the altered story, not really important enough for this thread, I think it is fine to agree that we disagree.

[Chuck88]

In my mind, there is no possible way that they'll include either of the Tyrion rape scenes from ADWD, nor his comments about wishing to rape his sister. Similarly, I don't think the showrunners will include Dany's decision to allow the "questionable interrogation tactics" (torture) related to the hunt for information about the Sons of the Harpy.

Because D&D are just super in love with ratings, and would rather not have a mass exodus of Unsullied leaving the fandom because it's become "too dark".

You know them personally then?

I guess Breaking Bad's ratings took a massive dip during the later seasons as well then. Get a grip.

[Annara Snow]

I think they will make him a considerably darker character, but not quite as dark as the books.

Things I'm sure they will include (in chronological order):

- Tyrion learning about Tysha and lying to Jaime (they have almost the entire season to explain his first marriage)

- Tyrion killing Shae (not necessarily strangling her, but still killing her) and Tywin

- Tyrion drowning his sorrows

- Tyrion being rude and snapping at everyone he meets (pre-Penny)

- Tyrion buying the red-head prostitute in Volantis

Things I don't think they'll include:

- his endless travelogue with Illyrio

- Tyrion raping the red-head in Volantis (I think his "I'm f***ing a corpse" realisation will come before the sex in the show)

- Tyrion talking about raping Cersei (substitue "rape" with "murder")

So, no, I don't think Tyrion will be quite as dark as in the books, but his transformation will still come as a shock to viewers.

Tyrion raping the sex slave in Volantis is supposed to be his lowest point. If he doesn't do it, where is the darkness? What would be new about it? He would still be the same season 3 Tyrion.

The only difference that they may make IMO: IIRC, in the book he does it once more even after realizing he is "fucking a corpse" and he doesn't seem particularly bothered about any of it. He doesn't even seem to be thinking of it as rape, as he tries to be "nice" talk to the girl and is woried about getting her in trouble for pissing on the floor, but doesn't feel guilty for fucking her. In the show, where they are portraying him as having more modern sensibilities, he probably would feel "what the fuck did I just do" and feel much worse about himself than in the book.

If they don't have him having sex with her at all, it would be complete whitewashing and wouldn't do justice to his character progression (or regression).

And, as WeddinGuest has pointed out, it's not like the show hasn't portrayed an unrepentant rapist (Drogo) in a positive (mostly) light.

[Joey Crows]

Even without the rape scenes Tyrion can still be portrayed as a darker, sadder version of his former self. Peter Dinklage has the chops to take Tyrion's wit and turn it into a vehicle for intense self loathing and regret. After killing Shae and his father, there will be ample emotional material for Dinklage to work with. Tyrion is gonna get darker than Xaro Xhoan Daxos after a vacation in the Summer Isles!

[Daske]

The issue I have with Tyrion's rape of the slave girl and thinking about raping Cersei is that you don't just come up with that way of thinking because you are brought low/depressed/in a dark place. Whatever you may have been through and however evil your sister is this just isn't something that would cross a person's mind for revenge or for the hell of it because you are battling personal demons. Unless you always thought that way anyway.

It really made me do a double-take when reading the book and I think it was a mistake in the book and it would be a mistake in the show. The best anti-heroes are the ones that we retain a semblence of empathy and respect for despite their flaws or bad things they have done. And this is one imo that crosses the line because it shows in Tyrion's mindset that he has always been evil. And ruined an interesting character for me.

I realise this is a personal thing, but I hope the show doesn't include this musing of Cersei or the actual rape of the slave girl. From the trailers it's obvious he is in a very dark place already, and some worse things are in store. I don't think it needs these very nasty elements too else they risk losing all sympathy for Tyrion. And without that who cares if he is in a dark place?

[A Bastard Brother]

Peter Dinklage has shown he can do the job. He has won quite a few awards for this role already. I am all for hoping they let him go dark. I know he wont be as dark as in the books, but they can't keep him funny little drunkard either. If you are going to respect what he does later on you have to see him go through changes. I hope they respect the actor enough to allow him the opportunity to play him dark so we can eventually see him pull through.

Maybe stay away from the rape stuff, but Dany and Drogo was pretty much a rape scene and they let that play out.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Womanofwar. I think you missed the part where I stated I LIKE TYRION. My liking the character does not however prevent me from seeing or acknowledging his flaws. I like Shae too.

What I do not like is people saying she deserved what he did to her, She really didn't. As I hope I have demonstrated by actually analysing some of the text which pertains to her and Tyrions relationship. The relationship is wholly one sided she is just doing a job, and he has all the power in the relationship. He is well aware that she is a whore, she never lies to him or tells him she no longer wishes to be paid for her services. And to top it off she never actually got payment for the job and so why on earth do people think she owes him her silence on the witness stand? why do so many readers see her as a bitch & a gold digger and say she got what she deserved as she betrayed him? Why do people think she should have refused to lie when the chances are she either was being offered a huge reward, one which she might well see as just given that he prevented her from actually earning any money in her chosen career for over a year and never paid for her services. Or she was lying due to threats from a woman whom we know is not adverse to torture. When we find her in Tywins bed she is there either because he offered her cash, and may I remind those who revile her for having sex with Tywin, she was not Tyrions partner, she was a whore and can sell her cunt to whom ever she wishes. Or she was in that bed because to refuse him would have meant death. . Either way I don't think anyone can justify saying she was a bitch or that she deserved to die. She owed him nothing where he owed her over a years salary and had pushed her into a life of servitude.

[Rashtibram]

I think he'll definitely be more cynical, and go to a darker place than we've seen before on the show: I doubt, however, that they'll include any of his rape-talk, and he'll probably still be shown in an ultimately positive light. They have an opportunity to play up his dark side next season, with the trial and his murders of Shae and Tywin.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Shae is old news for season 4 -give it a rest. Tyrion S4 will be him in a foreign land, no wealth, no castle, no land, no titles, no family, just lil old him & his wits so this will necessitate some shady actions on his part, he did smash a guy's head in w/ a kite shield a few episodes into S1.

I really like Tyrion's first POV in ADWD, his self loathing about killing Shae & his Dad & his mom & how the whole Tysha thing went down. He gives into this self loathing again when he gets caught in the whorehouse in Volantis. That part is more melancholic than dark. It'd be cool if we get a scene w/ the mushrooms and Ilyrio.

[Le Cygne]

What I do not like is people saying she deserved what he did to her, She really didn't. As I hope I have demonstrated by actually analysing some of the text which pertains to her and Tyrions relationship.

I believe you have, very well. I hope the show is as sensitive in the portrayal of this as the books.

[Woman of War]

Womanofwar. I think you missed the part where I stated I LIKE TYRION. My liking the character does not however prevent me from seeing or acknowledging his flaws. I like Shae too.

What I do not like is people saying she deserved what he did to her, She really didn't.

........

I may have written a hundred times already, in about every second post I ever may have made about Shae, that murdering her was in no way justified, I think I need not repeat that disclaimer again. If you have not read that I think you must have misunderstood something. Actually I often feel the need to defend Shae's identity in her profession as sex worker against discriminatory approaches like she is only a whore or she is immoral simply for being a prostitute. No, Shae has a choice to make ugly decisions or not just like anyone else.

And I for sure am not someone who wants the character of Tyrion simplified by not showing him in all his complexity. This book and HBO character is a too precious invention to take away from his better or darker aspects. I clearly want to see his flaws in detail , just like the aspects that fascinate me in him. But it is only natural that different readers have different interpretations of story aspects.

[Seneti]

how incredible that substituting rape with murder makes one less dark.

and sadly, the majority of readers and viewers will agree with this.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but speaking as someone who has a friend who WAS raped IRL, I can safely say that there are at least three reasons why I consider murder less dark than rape:

1:

What do you find "sad' about it? I've seen the "rape is no big deal compared to actual murder" argument here before, and also the "torture is no big deal compared to actual murder" argument as well. However, while the crime of murder is "worse" than rape to many people (though not all - there are cultures in which rape victims are expected to kill themselves to rid themselves of shame), I think you can certainly argue that the average rapist is darker than the average killer, because there are many, many mitigating factors for killing someone, such as acting in self-defense (or perceived self-defense), in the heat of the moment, attempting just to injure someone but winding up killing them, etc. Seeking vengeance for the death of a loved one also seems to be acceptable to many, note how even Brienne, who is touted as one of the "whitest" characters in the series, has vowed to kill Stannis to avenge Renly, and still hasn't repudiated that vow, though certainly her quest to find Sansa has taken precedence so far.

However, I can't think of any mitigating factors for rape that a modern audience would accept, other than, perhaps, "I was coerced to do it by someone else", which is the main mitigating factor for Tyrion's involvement in the rape of Tysha; I suppose the "I didn't know the victim wasn't consenting" defense might be applied here as well. But I doubt most modern TV watchers would accept "it wasn't illegal to rape my wife, so it wasn't immoral" or "it was war, my blood was up, I couldn't help myself", or "she deserved to be raped for revenge", or "I was feeling really depressed and down on myself".

2: As horrible as murder is: Once you're dead, you're dead. No more pain and no more suffering. Rape victims often need years or even decades to overcome the pain and the feelings of fear, humiliation, degradation and helplessness that this one crime causes in them. Some never recover. Until you've met someone like that in real life, you have no idea just how much it hurts them.

3: Cultural (and, in case of threatening rape, linguistic) bias: How many times have you heard someone say "I'm going to murder/kill him/her/them" in frustration without actually meaning any harm? How many times have you heard someone say "I'm going rape him/her/them" in frustration without actually meaning any harm? Notice a pattern here?

So, yes, I would consider Tyrion saying he wants to kill Cersei less dark than saying he wants to rape her.

[Annara Snow]

The issue I have with Tyrion's rape of the slave girl and thinking about raping Cersei is that you don't just come up with that way of thinking because you are brought low/depressed/in a dark place. Whatever you may have been through and however evil your sister is this just isn't something that would cross a person's mind for revenge or for the hell of it because you are battling personal demons. Unless you always thought that way anyway.

It really made me do a double-take when reading the book and I think it was a mistake in the book and it would be a mistake in the show. The best anti-heroes are the ones that we retain a semblence of empathy and respect for despite their flaws or bad things they have done. And this is one imo that crosses the line because it shows in Tyrion's mindset that he has always been evil. And ruined an interesting character for me.

I realise this is a personal thing, but I hope the show doesn't include this musing of Cersei or the actual rape of the slave girl. From the trailers it's obvious he is in a very dark place already, and some worse things are in store. I don't think it needs these very nasty elements too else they risk losing all sympathy for Tyrion. And without that who cares if he is in a dark place?

But without the rape of the slave girl, how exactly will he be dark in season 5? What other dark things does he do, apart from saying some dark things - such as is threats to the slave girl at Illyrio's place, or his threats to Cersei, which is all again rape talk?

If you take that all out, all you're left with is Tyrion as a funny dwarf who has a lot of shit happen to him in Essos, Tyrion as a hero who saves Young Griff's life, Tyrion as a good guy who helps Jorah after Jorah has kidnapped him and put him in chains and treated him like shit (in case they don't change that, since Jorah is the one character who may have been whitewashed more than Tyrion, and more than Cersei) and Tyrion as a badass who gets himself, Jorah and Penny freed.

Doesn't make a lot of sense as development right after the murders of his lover and his father. Where's the darkness? Especially without Tyrion's inner thoughts. Drinking a lot may make you look pitiable, but not dark.

[Cyvasse Khal]

And to top it off she never actually got payment for the job and so why on earth do people think she owes him her silence on the witness stand? why do so many readers see her as a bitch & a gold digger and say she got what she deserved as she betrayed him? Why do people think she should have refused to lie when the chances are she either was being offered a huge reward, one which she might well see as just given that he prevented her from actually earning any money in her chosen career for over a year and never paid for her services.

I don't quite understand the reasoning here. The trial was never about Shae and Tyrion's affair and what Tyrion got up to in his private time, it was about whether Tyrion and Sansa killed Joffrey. Nobody should expect her to keep silent about Tyrion and her (not even Tyrion, he was already in a shit spot anyway). People believe she betrayed him because she lied and said Tyrion did kill Joffrey. I find the fucking of Tywin irrelevant, because at the end of the day she was a whore and all she owed Tyrion was the 'girlfriend experience' while she was in his service, and that's Tyrion's problem that he fell in love with her.

Either way in that trial she would have pissed off someone. She was doomed the moment she tried to underhand her way into riches and power in such a short space of time. I also don't think she deserved to be killed by Tyrion, but for lying on the witness stand (regardless of Cersei or Tywin pressuring her) she deserved some kind of consequence. Few months in the black sells and then sent back to where she came from.