Varys historically influenced by Zhao Gao?

[General Kanki]

The series of 'A Song of Ice And Fire' is known to stem from a lot historical events. Just wondering if it's possible that GRRM was reading up upon the unification of China's warring States era and the downfall of the first/second emperor's of china by ultimately the hands of the eunuch and politically powerful Zhao Gao, and thought up the character of Varys.

I don't think that any of us readers can be certain of Varys's true agenda...

Ultimately I just don't see Varys dying in this series, him and little finger are definitely the most interesting characters IMO.

[TheCoffeeThatWasPromised]

There is a theory that Zhao Gao wanted revenge on the the ruling family. So, if Varys is a blackfyre or brightflame...........

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

I believe it. They seem to be so similar.

Varys is an absolute genius. Zhao Gao sadly got killed which makes me think Varys may possible be killed as well but not without causing monstrous chaos throughout the realm only to consolidate it with the coronation of Aegon the 6th. I reckon Daenerys is going to see right through him and have him killed when she realizes he's an enemy.

Aside from that I would be rather pissed off if Littlefinger manages to kill Varys. I sincerely hope its the other way around!!

Aside from my own wishful thinking that a Targaryen will sit on the iron throne in the end I hope Varys might get a chance to sit on it. Although it's rather obvious that will never happen.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Wow, that's very interesting. I didn't know this guy's story. Can anyone recommend a book about it?

I've always seen Varys as some kind of Rasputin, which makes me wonder if they made Varys an eunuch to display his gigantic penis on a museum.

[Ygrain]

A really intriguing catch, especially when taking a look at the alternative theories about Zhao Gao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao#Alternative_viewpoints:

There is a conspiracy theory that Zhao Gao was a descendant of the royal family of the Kingdom of Zhao, which was destroyed by Qin, and Zhao Gao was seeking revenge on Qin. With Zhao Gao in charge of the Qin government, it was natural that the Qin Empire collapsed in such a short time. In fact, Zhao Gao killed all the sons and daughters of Qin Shi Huang, including the Second Emperor, Huhai. In revenge, Ziying killed Zhao Gao and all of his family members. Thus Zhao Gao or his brothers have no known descendants.

Li Kaiyuan (李開元), a historian from China, believes Zhao Gao was not a eunuch at all. He bases this in part on the fact eunuchs were not allowed to serve as prime minister, which Zhao did.

[General Kanki]

^this.

I believe that Varys is not a eunuch. Varys being a blackfyre also is in the back of my mind, but him not being a eunuch is more believable for me.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62067-is-varys-really-a-eunuch-adwd-spoilers/
Some great cases have been made in this link.

Truly Varys is the most terrifying character. He seems to have a plan that oversees a larger spectrum than any other character.

[Fire Eater]

A really intriguing catch, especially when taking a look at the alternative theories about Zhao Gao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao#Alternative_viewpoints:

There is a conspiracy theory that Zhao Gao was a descendant of the royal family of the Kingdom of Zhao, which was destroyed by Qin, and Zhao Gao was seeking revenge on Qin. With Zhao Gao in charge of the Qin government, it was natural that the Qin Empire collapsed in such a short time. In fact, Zhao Gao killed all the sons and daughters of Qin Shi Huang, including the Second Emperor, Huhai. In revenge, Ziying killed Zhao Gao and all of his family members. Thus Zhao Gao or his brothers have no known descendants.

Li Kaiyuan (李開元), a historian from China, believes Zhao Gao was not a eunuch at all. He bases this in part on the fact eunuchs were not allowed to serve as prime minister, which Zhao did.

Agreed. Varys may have inspiration from Zhao Gao.

Varys wanted revenge on the Targaryens for the destruction of his family the Blackfyes. He had many Targaryens killed off, and I think it will end with the death of himself and fAegon.

[Gneisenau]

Varys certainly has that Chinese eunuch flair to him. In the TV show he wears chinese-like robes and tucks his hands together like you see ancient Chinese people do.

[Pod The Impaler]

Turkish sultans had their powerful court eunuchs as well.

Varys may reflect Zhao Gao, and others too.

[Alia of the knife]

^this.

I believe that Varys is not a eunuch. Varys being a blackfyre also is in the back of my mind, but him not being a eunuch is more believable for me.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62067-is-varys-really-a-eunuch-adwd-spoilers/

Some great cases have been made in this link.

Truly Varys is the most terrifying character. He seems to have a plan that oversees a larger spectrum than any other character.

Varys not a Eunuch, now THAT is intriguing.

At the end of Dance, in his conversation with Kevan, did it not state that his voice was lower?

Also, do you think that Varys is lying about Aryas whereabouts and knows where she is? And if so, to what end would he keep her presence a secret?

To make more trouble for the Targaryens with the FM, or, a bride for Aegon?

Is it really his desire that Aegon marry Dany, or is that Conningtons? It would seem that the only advantage to marrying Dany is if he were a known Blackfyre, reuniting the two lines? As a Targaryen in disguise, it would seem he would need to marry to unite the Seven Kingdoms again, and if Sansa is out of play, then Arya is left to bring the North.

[Annara Snow]

^this.

I believe that Varys is not a eunuch. Varys being a blackfyre also is in the back of my mind, but him not being a eunuch is more believable for me.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62067-is-varys-really-a-eunuch-adwd-spoilers/

Some great cases have been made in this link.

Truly Varys is the most terrifying character. He seems to have a plan that oversees a larger spectrum than any other character.

Why on Earth would Varys lie about being a eunuch? What would he have to gain from it? It only makes people trust him less out of prejudice. That theory makes no sense.

Also, the fact that the TV series confirmed that he is a eunuch doesn't bode well for that theory having any merit.

[Annara Snow]

Varys not a Eunuch, now THAT is intriguing.

At the end of Dance, in his conversation with Kevan, did it not state that his voice was lower?

.

He used a lower voice in AGOT, too, in special moments when he was being very serious. How does that prove that he's not a eunuch? Anyone can make their voice sound higher or lower. When men make those terrible high voices when trying to imitate women, that doesn't mean that someone has just cut their balls off, and then they sawed them back on once they started speaking with their regular voices. Women can also make their voices ridiculously deep, it doesn't mean that they've become men.

Varys usually speaks with a higher voice because he's speaking in an affected way and playing up the stereotypical image of the eunuch, which people are expecting from him as a eunuch. He said as much to Ned, everyone must play a role. When he is not playing up that image, his voice drops to what it would probably sound like if he weren't talking in an affected way.

[Alia of the knife]

He used a lower voice in AGOT, too, in special moments when he was being very serious. How does that prove that he's not a eunuch? Anyone can make their voice sound higher or lower. When men make those terrible high voices when trying to imitate women, that doesn't mean that someone has just cut their balls off, and then they sawed them back on once they started speaking with their regular voices. Women can also make their voices ridiculously deep, it doesn't mean that they've become men.

Varys usually speaks with a higher voice because he's speaking in an affected way and playing up the stereotypical image of the eunuch, which people are expecting from him as a eunuch. He said as much to Ned, everyone must play a role. When he is not playing up that image, his voice drops to what it would probably sound like if he weren't talking in an affected way.

Kevan notes a distinct difference in Varys manner as he lay dying particularly the low pitch of his voice, (and I think this is deliberate on the part of the Author), with Kevan dying, Varys does not have affect his personna as an effiminate Eunuch with a dying man.

He also killed Kevan with a crossbow, which is no easy thing.

"Castration (also known as neutering or gonadectomy) is any action, surgical, chemical or otherwise, by which a biological male loses use of the testes. (Orchiectomy specifically refers to surgical removal of one or both testes.) This causes sterilization (i.e., prevents them from reproducing); it also greatly reduces the production of certain hormones, such as testosterone."

If Varys is really a Eunuch and was behaving naturally with Kevan, which he seems to be, his voice would not have changed, and again I think this is a deliberate on the part of the Author to note that with the implication that perhaps Varys with his shaved head, (much like Egg), may not be who he says he is and perhaps not even a real Eunuch.

And I don't know that actually being a Eunuch really adds to the story either unless the story of his being "cut," and blood magic point to his own kings blood.

As for the show, while I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and believe the show does give certain clues, or ideas on the direction of the story, it also has to be taken with a grain of salt given that Robbs wife was turned into a woman from Volantis and Loras turned into a fop.

[DrunkSister]

*jawdrop* You don't need to be a man to use a crossbow. It has that little winch with which you wind the string, not like a longbow for which so much strength was needed that the archers had asymmetrical bones! It's cool like that, crossbow.

And I am not sure how much skill was needed for a point blank range as well.

As for 'Varys the man in disguise as an effete eunuch', several thousand Unsullied would like to have a word with you!

We could talk about the perception of eunuchs in fiction and historical documents we have, and their gender role and how much was performance and how much nature, but it suffices IMO to point out that GRRM does not hold eunuchs to be weak or unable to fight to end the discussion on Varys.

We should be suspicious of Varys' shaved head precisely because eunuchs do not go bald, if he is just a man, then what? he had an early onset baldness and had to hide it because ^^? :P

Voice change would depend on whether Varys was cut pre puberty or after his voice mutated because the sound voice makes has to do with anatomy of the vocal chords and mouth, not with the hormones in the body atm. I can't remember which was the case. Anybody?

If Varys is not an eunuch I will think incomparably less of the whole saga, what with eunuchs being not that rare through history (China and Ottoman Empire were noted in this tread, lets add Byzantine Empire and Ancient+Sasanid Persia, singers in Rome and in opera all over Europe (we even have a recording! it was that late that they still lived)), it would be like drawing readers in with promise of diversity only to have the carpet pulled from under their feet: sorry! only modern genders in this fantasy! Not cool.

[Alia of the knife]

*jawdrop* You don't need to be a man to use a crossbow. It has that little winch with which you wind the string, not like a longbow for which so much strength was needed that the archers had asymmetrical bones! It's cool like that, crossbow.

And I am not sure how much skill was needed for a point blank range as well.

As for 'Varys the man in disguise as an effete eunuch', several thousand Unsullied would like to have a word with you!

We could talk about the perception of eunuchs in fiction and historical documents we have, and their gender role and how much was performance and how much nature, but it suffices IMO to point out that GRRM does not hold eunuchs to be weak or unable to fight to end the discussion on Varys.

We should be suspicious of Varys' shaved head precisely because eunuchs do not go bald, if he is just a man, then what? he had an early onset baldness and had to hide it because ^^? :P

Voice change would depend on whether Varys was cut pre puberty or after his voice mutated because the sound voice makes has to do with anatomy of the vocal chords and mouth, not with the hormones in the body atm. I can't remember which was the case. Anybody?

If Varys is not an eunuch I will think incomparably less of the whole saga, what with eunuchs being not that rare through history (China and Ottoman Empire were noted in this tread, lets add Byzantine Empire and Ancient+Sasanid Persia, singers in Rome and in opera all over Europe (we even have a recording! it was that late that they still lived)), it would be like drawing readers in with promise of diversity only to have the carpet pulled from under their feet: sorry! only modern genders in this fantasy! Not cool.

I am aware that one doesn't necessarily need to be a man to handle certain weapons, that was not my point, (unless Varys was observed hunting, or engaging in archery, then his use of a crossbow would still be difficult, no matter the ease of the weapon, and still out of character for the Varys most people “see,”), as well as the history of Eunuchs and, and I'm aware that most of Danys army are eunuchs, (and eunuchs who on occasion will go to brothels and pay just to be held by a woman).

However, this is a story set in psuedo-Medieval times where the notion of "diversity" didn't exist, so I would not necessarily expect the Author to make that his focus, and if his character is a suggestion of Zhao Gao who may not have been a Eunuch, then Martin is merely being consistent with writing Varys that way.

In terms of those concerns, I think Martin does a very good job in balancing true history and incorporating the modern notions of "diversity," into his universe, but I don't think that needs to BE the story.

The point of Varys is that he is NOT what he seems to be, and possibly drawing on a historical character such as Gao, seems to be a potential motivation for his character, and the historical Gaos "calling a deer a horse," meaning the purposeful misrepresentation for ulterior motives," seems very "Varys" to me.

[DrunkSister]

Alia of the knife,

the code is not working ATM, I'll mark your text with color.

I am aware that one doesn't necessarily need to be a man to handle certain weapons, that was not my point, (unless Varys was observed hunting, or engaging in archery, then his use of a crossbow would still be difficult, no matter the ease of the weapon, and still out of character for the Varys most people “see,”),

So, the part where he spent time in a travelling circus, prostituted himself, was a beggar and a thief, then later became known as prince of thieves and best buddy to Illyrio, a very good swordsman, has managed to slip your mind?

It is out of character for his persona, but certainly not for him. And it still doesn't require being Robin Hood, he had stationary targets, element of surprise, and very short range. He might have gotten that much just from practising in free time while he was MIA in AFFC/ADWD.

However, this is a story set in psuedo-Medieval times where the notion of "diversity" didn't exist, so I would not necessarily expect the Author to make that his focus,

Oh, yes, how could I forget that diversity was invented in 20th century America. Eunuchs were considered third gender in Bizantium. But you know, writers writing a pseudo-medieval fantasy are not expected to engage with the complexities of the society, just give us the Great Chain over Golden Horn and the wildfire, leave the social customs at the door.

and if his character is a suggestion of Zhao Gao who may not have been a Eunuch, then Martin is merely being consistent with writing Varys that way.

If Varys is based on this guy, then Varys-is-only-pretending is still on very shaky ground. From what I gather from wikipedia and jstor abstract, the chinese historian is claiming that Gao was not a eunuch, nor ever pretended to be one, but that this is a misreading of the text and terminology.

But even if I have misread that part, going by Ygrain's quoted sentence alone, to say that he can't have been an eunuch because he held a position not given to eunuchs is not IMO reasonable. Rules had exceptions. To go on with Byzantine history, Irene was an emperor. You'd think she'd be an empress, but no. And Basil the Macedon was the guard of emperor's chamber even though this was the position reserved for eunuchs and he was not one. But maybe he was secretly castr... no he had kids afterwards.

In terms of those concerns, I think Martin does a very good job in balancing true history and incorporating the modern notions of "diversity," into his universe, but I don't think that needs to BE the story.

There you go with this 'modern notion of diversity', that is just not true. I gave examples from several millennia of the omnipresence of castrated males in our history, but a pseudo-medieval world can just contain men and women and it's okay? Like, that was just one example. Eunuchs. There were others.

But it is perfectly okay for fantasy to not correspond to any reality, past or present. Who needs diversity when everything can be bland and boring. 'Human heart in conflict with itself'? Only if it beats in a cis body!

...

And what is even the point of the masquerade if true?! 'Lord' Varys cannot hold a castle, cannot lead an army, cannot be the hand (though in Byzantine history eunuchs did all that, and more), he is constrained by his state to whispering from shadows into Aerys' ear, and later to Robert and Jon Arryn.

If Varys is of indeed of Targ descent (otherwise the parallel to that conspiracy theory about Zhao falls through) he could do what Littlefinger did and then raise a rebellion in his own name, and put his kid on the throne. Instead we have F!Aegon who could be anybody. Is there going to be a reveal where he tells Aegon 'no, I am your father'?!

Why do it? Where's the gain?

[Alia of the knife]

Alia of the knife,

the code is not working ATM, I'll mark your text with color.

I am aware that one doesn't necessarily need to be a man to handle certain weapons, that was not my point, (unless Varys was observed hunting, or engaging in archery, then his use of a crossbow would still be difficult, no matter the ease of the weapon, and still out of character for the Varys most people “see,”),

So, the part where he spent time in a travelling circus, prostituted himself, was a beggar and a thief, then later became known as prince of thieves and best buddy to Illyrio, a very good swordsman, has managed to slip your mind?

It is out of character for his persona, but certainly not for him. And it still doesn't require being Robin Hood, he had stationary targets, element of surprise, and very short range. He might have gotten that much just from practising in free time while he was MIA in AFFC/ADWD.

However, this is a story set in psuedo-Medieval times where the notion of "diversity" didn't exist, so I would not necessarily expect the Author to make that his focus,

Oh, yes, how could I forget that diversity was invented in 20th century America. Eunuchs were considered third gender in Bizantium. But you know, writers writing a pseudo-medieval fantasy are not expected to engage with the complexities of the society, just give us the Great Chain over Golden Horn and the wildfire, leave the social customs at the door.

and if his character is a suggestion of Zhao Gao who may not have been a Eunuch, then Martin is merely being consistent with writing Varys that way.

If Varys is based on this guy, then Varys-is-only-pretending is still on very shaky ground. From what I gather from wikipedia and jstor abstract, the chinese historian is claiming that Gao was not a eunuch, nor ever pretended to be one, but that this is a misreading of the text and terminology.

But even if I have misread that part, going by Ygrain's quoted sentence alone, to say that he can't have been an eunuch because he held a position not given to eunuchs is not IMO reasonable. Rules had exceptions. To go on with Byzantine history, Irene was an emperor. You'd think she'd be an empress, but no. And Basil the Macedon was the guard of emperor's chamber even though this was the position reserved for eunuchs and he was not one. But maybe he was secretly castr... no he had kids afterwards.

In terms of those concerns, I think Martin does a very good job in balancing true history and incorporating the modern notions of "diversity," into his universe, but I don't think that needs to BE the story.

There you go with this 'modern notion of diversity', that is just not true. I gave examples from several millennia of the omnipresence of castrated males in our history, but a pseudo-medieval world can just contain men and women and it's okay? Like, that was just one example. Eunuchs. There were others.

But it is perfectly okay for fantasy to not correspond to any reality, past or present. Who needs diversity when everything can be bland and boring. 'Human heart in conflict with itself'? Only if it beats in a cis body!

...

And what is even the point of the masquerade if true?! 'Lord' Varys cannot hold a castle, cannot lead an army, cannot be the hand (though in Byzantine history eunuchs did all that, and more), he is constrained by his state to whispering from shadows into Aerys' ear, and later to Robert and Jon Arryn.

If Varys is of indeed of Targ descent (otherwise the parallel to that conspiracy theory about Zhao falls through) he could do what Littlefinger did and then raise a rebellion in his own name, and put his kid on the throne. Instead we have F!Aegon who could be anybody. Is there going to be a reveal where he tells Aegon 'no, I am your father'?!

Why do it? Where's the gain?

Faulkners "a heart in conflict with itself," is one of Martins themes, and lay in the fact that the battles of what one wants and what is right are played out as much in the heart as on the battlefield.

I think that you and I have different expectations of the book, so we will have to agree to disagree.

[DrunkSister]

Faulkners "a heart in conflict with itself," is one of Martins themes, and lay in the fact that the battles of what one wants and what is right are played out as much in the heart as on the battlefield.

I think that you and I have different expectations of the book, so we will have to agree to disagree.

:rolleyes:

[Lord Browndodd]

...And what is even the point of the masquerade if true?! 'Lord' Varys cannot hold a castle, cannot lead an army, cannot be the hand (though in Byzantine history eunuchs did all that, and more), he is constrained by his state to whispering from shadows into Aerys' ear, and later to Robert and Jon Arryn.

If Varys is of indeed of Targ descent (otherwise the parallel to that conspiracy theory about Zhao falls through) he could do what Littlefinger did and then raise a rebellion in his own name, and put his kid on the throne. Instead we have F!Aegon who could be anybody. Is there going to be a reveal where he tells Aegon 'no, I am your father'?!

Not sure how I feel about this...

[Clariana]

Pretty certain Varys is an eunuch he just theatrically emphasises his appearance according to the character he's playing, thus "Varys" speaks softly, lisps and pats his face with powder, wears noticeable floral perfume and dresses in fine slightly feminine clothing, the black cells jailer on the other hand is badly shaven, speaks with a deeper voice, and rougher tones, dresses crude and roughly and smells of... Eau de crap... Let's not forget Varys started life as a mummer these are just tricks of the trade.