Heresy 107

[Frey family reunion]

I wonder about that passage. Rhaegar doesn't explicitly say "I need another child," but only that bit about the dragon having three heads.

It's another link between the PtwP prophecy and a dragon, of course. I see it as more evidence the original word was dragon.

Rhaegar also corresponded with Aemon on this subject, and we now know what Aemon thought about this, before he died: that the three heads would be people who helped guide Dany.

But, of course, Dany hadn't been born back then, and Aemon couldn't have thought that then. So it's not at all clear (to me at least) what Rhaegar thought.

No it's not explicit but it's certainly implied, which is about as much as we can expect considering we'll never have a POV from Rhaegar.

[Tyryan Lannister]

No it's not explicit but it's certainly implied, which is about as much as we can expect considering we'll never have a POV from Rhaegar.

Dream of Spring epilogue prologue is Rhaegar the morning of the Trident :devil: :dunno:

[JNR]

Or Bran has a handy-dandy weirwood vision (having learned to see well beyond the trees), and we actually watch as key events unfold.

Much could be explained without having to hear Rhaegar talking. Imagine, for instance, that we get to read the actual PtwP text as Rhaegar read it.

(If I were GRRM, this would probably be my favorite mechanism of revelation. But it would also force me to cut short Bran's plot development, to avoid spoilers.)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Or Bran has a handy-dandy weirwood vision (having learned to see well beyond the trees), and we actually watch as key events unfold.

Much could be explained without having to hear Rhaegar talking. Imagine, for instance, that we get to read the actual PtwP text as Rhaegar read it.

(If I were GRRM, this would probably be my favorite mechanism of revelation. But it would also force me to cut short Bran's plot development, to avoid spoilers.)

Speaking of Bran, it will be very interesting to see what D&D do with him and the tree-visions come Season 5, given that he will get to BR this season--but that's a whole year away... sigh

[roxWolfox]

I never wanted to do talking dragons--perhaps I am still too much of an sf writer to be happy with creatures that are too like humans. If dragons were intelligent, they would be so in ways that we could not recognize as such. I gave some serious thought to avoiding any overt fantasy elements and doing something that would only be a fantasy in that it took place in imaginary places and avoided known historical facts. As it is, I have carefully rationed magic. I went back to The Lord of the Rings and looked at how Tolkien does it. The Lord of the Rings is set in a magical world but there is not that much magic actually on stage. For Tolkien, wizardry is knowledge, not constant spells and incantations. I wanted to keep the magic in my book subtle and keep our sense of it growing, and it stops being magical if you see too much of it. In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again, as in Vance's Dying Earth. When Vance did it, it was original--I just picked the Liane the Wayfarer section for the Fantasy Hall of Fame anthology--but I wanted to do something else. And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

Ah, there it is in black and white. I'd read this somewhere before, and I thank you for your post. If anyone misquotes Mr. Martin again, I'll send them your way. ^^

:cheers:

[Eira Seren]

Thanks for the link, Black Crow. There was a lot of information in there that I found interesting. Back when I first joined this forum, I participated a fair bit in the Sansa threads, which are just as volatile as the R+L=J crowd. I remember posting how I felt Sansa's actions were partly responsible for her father's death and was attacked quite viciously. So, it's nice to read some confirmation that I had interpreted correctly:

"Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death..."

Nice. "Someone always tells. . ."

I, for one, would like solid textural evidence that either Arthur, Gerold and Oswell were sent to fetch Rhaegar or had left with Rhaegar, because I don't believe we should take Ned's fever dream as straight forward facts.

Jaime does tell Rhaegar, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine." Which suggests that there were only three Kingsguard in Kings Landing when Rhaegar returned, however Jaime's memories also include Darry and Barristan leaving and riding to the Stony Sept to rally Griffin's remaining men, so Jaime is left to guard Aerys by himself.

What I'm getting at is why send three valuable men south into an area to fetch either Rhaegar or Lyanna when Dorne is your ally, and other Kingsguard are sent into areas of fighting? If you're sending Kingsguard into a safe territory, you wouldn't need to send three, especially when Aerys finally realizes that Robert is a dangerous threat. Rhaegar returned with Dornishmen to Kings Landing. Can we assume that this was his original purpose for going south? Rhaegar seems oblivious to Lyanna's whereabouts and I am beginning to wonder if that's because it was actually Aerys that kidnapped Lyanna?

Ever since the Tourney of Harrenhal, Aerys becomes suspicious of his own son. He attends the Tourney even when he's a known recluse. He observes his son laying the laurel of roses in Lyanna's lap and sees a way to discredit his son. Black Crow is right to point out that Dorne doesn't appear to be upset with Rhaegar. The initial conclusion is because Dorne doesn't see paramours as necessarily bad, but what if it's because Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna? What if Aerys just wanted people to believe that Rhaegar did it?

I agree, this is a good variation on the events. I always thought it was Aerys in Dany's vision that says "Let him be king of the ashes," and that he is referring to Rhaegar. It's a strategy that will only bring about disastrous consequences, and only someone who is at least slightly mad would run with it.

I never wanted to do talking dragons--perhaps I am still too much of an sf writer to be happy with creatures that are too like humans. If dragons were intelligent, they would be so in ways that we could not recognize as such. I gave some serious thought to avoiding any overt fantasy elements and doing something that would only be a fantasy in that it took place in imaginary places and avoided known historical facts. As it is, I have carefully rationed magic. I went back to The Lord of the Rings and looked at how Tolkien does it. The Lord of the Rings is set in a magical world but there is not that much magic actually on stage. For Tolkien, wizardry is knowledge, not constant spells and incantations. I wanted to keep the magic in my book subtle and keep our sense of it growing, and it stops being magical if you see too much of it. In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again, as in Vance's Dying Earth. When Vance did it, it was original--I just picked the Liane the Wayfarer section for the Fantasy Hall of Fame anthology--but I wanted to do something else. And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

just wanted to say that's really interesting. this whole passage, in fact

[Melifeather]

Complicating this a bit more is that the app (so I'm told...) says that Dayne and Whent helped abduct Lyanna.

Is abduct in sarcastic R+L=J quotes? I'm told it's not.

It would make sense that Aerys told Dayne and Whent to abduct Lyanna. Rhaegar likely knew nothing of it, or if he did he couldn't be detracted from gathering his own force. Dorne was with him, and I like Eira Seren's post above stating the quote, "let him be king of the ashes" to be directed at Rhaegar and not Robert like we were led to believe.

[wolfmaid7]

It would make sense that Aerys told Dayne and Whent to abduct Lyanna. Rhaegar likely knew nothing of it, or if he did he couldn't be detracted from gathering his own force. Dorne was with him, and I like Eira Seren's post above stating the quote, "let him be king of the ashes" to be directed at Rhaegar and not Robert like we were led to believe.

That would be interesting,and also why would Aerys direct that statement at Robert,did he know Robert wanted to be king? Makes no sense. Plus it was a coilition between Stark,Arryn and Baratheon. Was there a leader of the Rebeliion whereby Aerys could be specific? If anything Arryn was the guy who defide him and raised his banners first right?

[Frey family reunion]

It would make sense that Aerys told Dayne and Whent to abduct Lyanna. Rhaegar likely knew nothing of it, or if he did he couldn't be detracted from gathering his own force. Dorne was with him, and I like Eira Seren's post above stating the quote, "let him be king of the ashes" to be directed at Rhaegar and not Robert like we were led to believe.

Why exactly would that make sense? How would abducting Lyanna benefit Aerys?

[Black Crow]

That would be interesting,and also why would Aerys direct that statement at Robert,did he know Robert wanted to be king? Makes no sense. Plus it was a coilition between Stark,Arryn and Baratheon. Was there a leader of the Rebeliion whereby Aerys could be specific? If anything Arryn was the guy who defide him and raised his banners first right?

This is why in the last thread I suggested that the Lyanna business wasn't the cause of the rebellion but the trigger. I think it would be true to say that Trouserless Bob Baratheon never wanted to be king and probably never set out to seize the throne. There was a conspiracy brewing long before and when it all went down Bob got promoted because as a Baratheon he had a claim to the throne which no-one else had - and because it was absolutely vital to have an alternative who wasn't called Tywin Lannister.

[Black Crow]

Why exactly would that make sense? How would abducting Lyanna benefit Aerys?

I'm not sure that it would, although I'm open to persuasion, but in either event I'm still very much inclined to wonder whether Hightower, the Lord Commander of the King's Guard was with Lya at the end because he was obeying Rhaegar's orders or his King's orders.

[wolfmaid7]

This is why in the last thread I suggested that the Lyanna business wasn't the cause of the rebellion but the trigger. I think it would be true to say that Trouserless Bob Baraheon never wanted to be king and probably never set out to seize the throne. There was a conspiracy brewing long before and when it all went down Bob got promoted because as a Baratheon he had a claim to the throne which no-one else had - and because it was absolutely vital to have an alternative who wasn't called Tywin Lannister.

To my logical mind that makes perrrrfect sense.

As to the question of why and how it would benefit Aerys

1.Trump card against R

2.Trump card against the Rebels

3.Kill two birds with one stone as both sides wanted Lya for their own reasons.For the Rebles it was Ned's sister and Roberts fiancee.For Rheagar she was a pawn in a bigger scheme to bring about some prophecy.

???????

[Eira Seren]

It would make sense that Aerys told Dayne and Whent to abduct Lyanna. Rhaegar likely knew nothing of it, or if he did he couldn't be detracted from gathering his own force. Dorne was with him, and I like Eira Seren's post above stating the quote, "let him be king of the ashes" to be directed at Rhaegar and not Robert like we were led to believe.

Another scenario, one that makes sense to me, is that Aerys arranged the abduction, but that one of the things Rhaegar hoped to see to when he went to Dorne was countering Aerys' measures. After the Tourney, I find it unlikely that he wouldn't attempt to help Lyanna if he could, especially if he saw himself as the reason she found herself in this predicament.

I say this because I see Dayne and Whent supporting Rhaegar; they could be caught in contradicting orders between the the king and the crown prince. So it's a bit of a mess as a theory at present, but Whent, Dayne and Hightower staying in Dorne guarding Lyanna could satisfy Aerys's orders, much as Elia was held in KL, until Rhaegar won the war, at which time he would have Dayne and Whent's help to put his father aside and officially free Lyanna. Rhaegar could have insisted they remain with her, which would also help explain why they are so unhappy following these orders, especially when at least Dayne would probably rather be at Rhaegar's side, helping him win.

[Black Crow]

I never wanted to do talking dragons--perhaps I am still too much of an sf writer to be happy with creatures that are too like humans. If dragons were intelligent, they would be so in ways that we could not recognize as such. I gave some serious thought to avoiding any overt fantasy elements and doing something that would only be a fantasy in that it took place in imaginary places and avoided known historical facts. As it is, I have carefully rationed magic. I went back to The Lord of the Rings and looked at how Tolkien does it. The Lord of the Rings is set in a magical world but there is not that much magic actually on stage. For Tolkien, wizardry is knowledge, not constant spells and incantations. I wanted to keep the magic in my book subtle and keep our sense of it growing, and it stops being magical if you see too much of it. In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again, as in Vance's Dying Earth. When Vance did it, it was original--I just picked the Liane the Wayfarer section for the Fantasy Hall of Fame anthology--but I wanted to do something else. And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

Yes that was why I provided a link to the full interview. Its quite an old one of course but it does provide us with an absolutely invaluable insight into how GRRM himself sees magic and how he is using it.

The reference to Stannis is also interesting and to my mind implies that once he's sorted out his present little local difficulty he will be turning back to the Wall and I do wonder whether when he does he and Jon may find themselves on opposing sides, or whether he will hold the Wall while Jon goes north.

[Eira Seren]

Why exactly would that make sense? How would abducting Lyanna benefit Aerys?

I think Black Crow has it. So the question, rephrased, might be: How would discrediting Rhaegar, even at the price of destabilizing the realm, benefit Aerys (a madman)? Perhaps he wasn't thinking the abduction would actually spark a full-blown rebellion. Long-view, critical thinking, after all, may not have been Aerys's strong suit :)

Having said that, I'm also fairly sure was suspicious of everyone, in the end: Rhaegar, Arryn, Lannister. The guy appeared to put the most trust in his pyromancer. . .

[JNR]

I'm also fairly sure was suspicious of everyone, in the end: Rhaegar, Arryn, Lannister. The guy appeared to put the most trust in his pyromancer. . .

...which is exactly why I don't think Aerys had a thing to do with the KG at the ToJ.

If he could have recalled them... bear in mind, this was a time when things were so bleak that he sent Viserys and his own wife to Dragonmount... I think he would have. If you fear imminent death, it's probably quite a security blanket to have three such deadly KG around.

But it seems Aerys didn't know where they were.

[Melifeather]

That would be interesting,and also why would Aerys direct that statement at Robert,did he know Robert wanted to be king? Makes no sense. Plus it was a coilition between Stark,Arryn and Baratheon. Was there a leader of the Rebeliion whereby Aerys could be specific? If anything Arryn was the guy who defide him and raised his banners first right?

After the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, Aerys demanded Jon Arryn to turn over his two wards, Ned and Robert. Arryn refused and raised his banners.

Why exactly would that make sense? How would abducting Lyanna benefit Aerys?

Aerys was paranoid of everyone around him, even his son Rhaegar. He believed Rhaegar was gathering a force to over throw him. Lyanna was an opportunity to turn people against him. Aerys kidnapped Lyanna to turn the Starks, and any house they were allied with, against Rhaegar. Like Eira Seren said, long term planning wasn't the strong suit of a mad man. He was more afraid of his own son than the rest of the realm. It wasn't until after the Battle of the Bells that Aerys even viewed the Rebellion as a true threat.

[Eira Seren]

...which is exactly why I don't think Aerys had a thing to do with the KG at the ToJ.

If he could have recalled them... bear in mind, this was a time when things were so bleak that he sent Viserys and his own wife to Dragonmount... I think he would have. If you fear imminent death, it's probably quite a security blanket to have three such deadly KG around.

But it seems Aerys didn't know where they were.

I have this feeling that Aerys didn't order Rhaella's departure, he was so far gone at the time. I wonder if Darry was falling back on contingency orders. Or just decided that once the gates were open and the Lannisters attacking, the next best thing was to get the heck out.

Notice the KG at toj don't say that Darry is a witless traitor for not staying in KL to defend or die trying, they say he is "a loyal man, and true." He fled. So it must have been orders. Darry can flee, but they can't, interesting. A different order.

[Toccs]

I have this feeling that Aerys didn't order Rhaella's departure, he was so far gone at the time. I wonder if Darry was falling back on contingency orders. Or just decided that once the gates were open and the Lannisters attacking, the next best thing was to get the heck out.

Aerys definitely ordered it, and Rhaella, Darry and the kids had left King's Landing well before the gates were opened to Tywin. When Jaime and Barristan are standing guard at the door while Aerys very loudly raped Rhaella inside and Jaime questioned it, that was the night before she was to depart for Dragonstone at Aery's order.

[Black Crow]

...which is exactly why I don't think Aerys had a thing to do with the KG at the ToJ.

If he could have recalled them... bear in mind, this was a time when things were so bleak that he sent Viserys and his own wife to Dragonmount... I think he would have. If you fear imminent death, it's probably quite a security blanket to have three such deadly KG around.

But it seems Aerys didn't know where they were.

There could be a simple time factor involved if we move away from Rhaegar and Lyanna being co-located up to the very last minute. We know that the Dornish had to be squared so there's a fair chance of Rhaegar being there before being summoned north. Lya on the other hand, nearing her time, may have been at Starfall. Hightower finds Rhaegar in Dorne and sends him north to do his duty and then, as ordered by Aerys, heads across to arrest Lya at Starfall and bring her back to Kings Landing. She's in no condition to start out right away, but as soon as she's delivered of Jon she's put on a horse and they head back. They then halt at the tower because by then she's plainly dying and they've also heard that Kings Landing has fallen.

It may not necessarily have worked out exactly this way, but I'd suggest its a lot more plausible than Rhaegar, Lyanna and two bodyguards spending all their time "hiding" in an old abandoned watchtower beside the main road for months on end