Heresy 107

[JNR]

Given Rhaegar's last message to Jaime (When I return, changes are going to be made) I find it doubtful that Rhaegar didn't have the Kingsguard (or, at least, the two members who mattered, Dayne and Hightower) in his pocket at some point before comng back to KL, and given the above, they were likely of a same mind (Aerys will probably need to go, but maybe he can redeem himself, so stay tuned) before Rhaegar disappeared

It is rather suggestive, isn't it.

It's also a bit of a monkey wrench thrown into any theory that Hightower was bound by an unbreakable oath to serve the king (see also: countless R+L=J threads).

Hightower, in the above scenario, certainly does not seem to have cared as much about what King Aerys wanted as what Prince Rhaegar wanted... or he would have told Aerys where to find Rhaegar.

[Frey family reunion]

It is rather suggestive, isn't it.

It's also a bit of a monkey wrench thrown into any theory that Hightower was bound by an unbreakable oath to serve the king (see also: countless R+L=J threads).

Hightower, in the above scenario, certainly does not seem to have cared as much about what King Aerys wanted as what Prince Rhaegar wanted... or he would have told Aerys where to find Rhaegar.

Which is why I'm at least willing to suggest that it might have been Jon's status as Lyanna's only son as opposed to Rhaegar's third child that might have been important for the three Kingsguards.

The only reason I think that it's a possibility is that both Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower come from two very old First Men families, that both seem to have strong bonds to their pasts. Dayne through the inheritable Sword of the Morning and the Sword Dawn, Hightower through their ties with the Citadel and their own ancient First Man monument the Hightower. Meanwhile House Whent, I feel may also have a very strong link to an ancient inheritable past but I feel it may be on the female side. (The side which then goes to House Tully and ultimately House Stark).

[JNR]

The only reason I think that it's a possibility is that both Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower come from two very old First Men families, that both seem to have strong bonds to their pasts.

Interesting and irrefutable point. Both of those families appear to be as old or older than the Starks. Well worth looking into some more.

[GoldenVale]

That last "locate" bit in my last post was part of Armstark's post but for some reason the quote thing went wonky. (just want to make sure credit goes where credit's due). But to continue:

It is rather suggestive, isn't it.

It's also a bit of a monkey wrench thrown into any theory that Hightower was bound by an unbreakable oath to serve the king (see also: countless R+L=J threads).

Hightower, in the above scenario, certainly does not seem to have cared as much about what King Aerys wanted as what Prince Rhaegar wanted... or he would have told Aerys where to find Rhaegar.

If this is true then he was certainly good at hiding it. Being predisposed to Rhaegar is a far cry from what his little talk with Jaime about Aerys (not too long before he was supposedly sent off on his search for Rhaegar).

"You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him."


Was that just some recycled Kingsgaurd mantra to calm the still fairly new brother Jaime?

[wolfmaid7]

Guys are we turning into another thread devoted to all things surrounding R?

Just trying to reorient us a bit.

[JNR]

"You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him."

Was that just some recycled Kingsguard mantra to calm the still fairly new brother Jaime?

Oh, I'm sure Hightower meant it at the time.

But he also rather conspicuously did not guard the king... meaning Aerys... when that king was sitting in King's Landing, desperately needing guarding, after Rhaegar died. Instead, as GRRM has told us, and the app confirms, he followed the order Rhaegar gave.

Just trying to reorient us a bit.

Good point.

It's awkward having a decent discussion of the show/Heresy, though, when so many posts are concealed, and all responses must similarly be concealed, under Spoiler tags. I'm hoping that dries up and blows away as an issue.

If the next book came out in England a week before America, I would just avoid the site until I could read the book for myself.

[Frey family reunion]

Guys are we turning into another thread devoted to all things surrounding R?

Just trying to reorient us a bit.

Well suggest a topic.

[Melifeather]

Definitely anything shown on the show is up for discussion, but I would like to remind you that since Ned and Howland were presumably the only survivors, the information inserted is how they wanted the story told.

The Thenns are what have my interest, as they seem more barbaric than I imagined. They weren't dressed very warmly, and what's up with the scar-tatoos?

[Armstark]

Sadly we only get to see the first page of Arthur Dayne's entry in the White Book, here it is anyway:

Second son of Beric Dayne of the House Starfall. Named 'sword of

the Morning' and wielder of the gread blade 'Dawn' forged

from a fallen star. Won many tourneys and broke [sexin?] lances

against Rhaegar Targary, prince of Dragonstone at the Tourney

of Storm's End. In the year of the False Spring. at the Great

Tourney at Harrenhal, he stood against all but the Prince once

more.

Beloved by the people, he acted as their voice in the reign of Aerys II

gathering their concerns and bringing them before the King.

[brought?] in [laws?] for the royal forces to repay the smallfolk for their

goods and turned the tide of support against the criminal scourge

of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Led the Kingsgard to victory...

[JNR]

broke [sexin?] lances against Rhaegar Targaryen, prince of Dragonstone

Sounds really painful.

[King of Winters]

Sadly we only get to see the first page of Arthur Dayne's entry in the White Book, here it is anyway:

Second son of Beric Dayne of the House Starfall. Named 'sword of

the Morning' and wielder of the gread blade 'Dawn' forged

from a fallen star. Won many tourneys and broke [sexin?] lances

against Rhaegar Targary, prince of Dragonstone at the Tourney

of Storm's End. In the year of the False Spring. at the Great

Tourney at Harrenhal, he stood against all but the Prince once

more.

Beloved by the people, he acted as their voice in the reign of Aerys II

gathering their concerns and bringing them before the King.

[brought?] in [laws?] for the royal forces to repay the smallfolk for their

goods and turned the tide of support against the criminal scourge

of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Led the Kingsgard to victory...

I think this is the first but of info we have on Ser Dayne's father and that he was the second son, which now makes more sense with him joining the KG and being the Sword of the Morning (even if it isn't from the books).

[Tyryan Lannister]

Guys are we turning into another thread devoted to all things surrounding R?

Just trying to reorient us a bit.

Rhaeger is god--become one of us, one of us

But, yes, it does seem to be going down that rabbit hole a little bit--I say give it a week till Episode 2, where we will have 1) the Purple Wedding to talk about and 2) likely at least a Bran scene (if not maybe the Craster's Keep one? Probably not, but who knows)

[Black Crow]

OK, first things first, can we please get rid of these silly spoiler tags.

As to the white book:

"...while defending the honour and property of the Dornish princess, Elia Martell. Handed command to Ser Arthur Dayne due to sustained injuries the same year. Broke three lances against Oswell Whent at the tourney at Harrenhal and fought with great distinction at the melee.

Dispatched by King Aerys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion.

Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow a knee to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell."

"Despatched by King Aerys to locate Rhaegar in the wake of the rebellion."

Nothing new here. That's exactly what we've always been told his was charged to do and he did it successfully, because Rhaegar came north and had a substantial force of Dornishmen under him at the Trident.

What we're not told is how long it took him to find Rhaegar. There's no reason why it shouldn't have taken him months of searching, and its also significant that it was the Lord Commander who was sent; a man who was trusted and who could be trusted to find Rhaegar and who had the authority to insist that Rhaegar return

Remember that scene when Jory Cassel attempt to interview Ser Hugh of the Vale and is told to piss off because Ser Hugh is a knight and Jory isn't. Somehow the White Bull doesn't strike me as the type to be fobbed off with "I'm a prince and you're not".

"Died...after refusing to bow a knee to the new King..."

Oddly enough that's exactly what Ned remembers.

Interesting reference to "a small force" - that sounds like more than seven.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Oh, I'm sure Hightower meant it at the time.

But he also rather conspicuously did not guard the king... meaning Aerys... when that king was sitting in King's Landing, desperately needing guarding, after Rhaegar died. Instead, as GRRM has told us, and the app confirms, he followed the order Rhaegar gave.

Good point.

It's awkward having a decent discussion of the show/Heresy, though, when so many posts are concealed, and all responses must similarly be concealed, under Spoiler tags. I'm hoping that dries up and blows away as an issue.

If the next book came out in England a week before America, I would just avoid the site until I could read the book for myself.

Normally, spoiler tags are good to come off Monday evening/Tuesday morning--our friends across the pond will all have had the chance to watch it legally by then, and if you can't get it legally, you've had well over 24 hours to find a way around that

[Grey Words]

Spoiler

Thoroughly enjoyed the new episode and its tidy method of setting up events to come. The Easter eggs were a treat, especially the Duncan the Tall reference and blue rose. What really caught my attention was the foreshadowing of Arya's path to Braavos and the HoB&W as the horses she and the Hound ride are black and white. Of course the irony of Arya, the maiden, riding off on a beautiful white courser is intriguing since she is moving towards a very dark path. We know where the Hound's black horse, Stranger (and likely the man himself) are headed. The transfer of Arya to her new vehicle is quite profound and could be misleading to casual viewers.

[King of Winters]

Normally, spoiler tags are good to come off Monday evening/Tuesday morning--our friends across the pond will all have had the chance to watch it legally by then, and if you can't get it legally, you've had well over 24 hours to find a way around that

Episode one was broadcast the same time as it was in the States, so 2am this morning for us, so you could've either recorded it to watch later or you could've watched it live.

[Grey Words]

The pale horse of Death is the proper metaphor.....but it's so "pretty!"

[King of Winters]

OK, first things first, can we please get rid of these silly spoiler tags.

As to the white book:

"...while defending the honour and property of the Dornish princess, Elia Martell. Handed command to Ser Arthur Dayne due to sustained injuries the same year. Broke three lances against Oswell Whent at the tourney at Harrenhal and fought with great distinction at the melee.

Dispatched by King Aerys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion.

Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow a knee to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell."

"Despatched by King Aerys to locate Rhaegar in the wake of the rebellion."

Nothing new here. That's exactly what we've always been told his was charged to do and he did it successfully, because Rhaegar came north and had a substantial force of Dornishmen under him at the Trident.

What we're not told is how long it took him to find Rhaegar. There's no reason why it shouldn't have taken him months of searching, and its also significant that it was the Lord Commander who was sent; a man who was trusted and who could be trusted to find Rhaegar and who had the authority to insist that Rhaegar return

Remember that scene when Jory Cassel attempt to interview Ser Hugh of the Vale and is told to piss off because Ser Hugh is a knight and Jory isn't. Somehow the White Bull doesn't strike me as the type to be fobbed off with "I'm a prince and you're not".

"Died...after refusing to bow a knee to the new King..."

Oddly enough that's exactly what Ned remembers.

Interesting reference to "a small force" - that sounds like more than seven.

In the Oberyn scene with Tyrion, about Elia, he seemed as of he was more concerned about Tywin and Gregor killing Elia, as he should be, than about Rhaegar running off with Lyanna and leaving Elia and his children in KL.

It could be because, being Dornish, their views are different than that of the rest of the 6 Kingdoms. For instance Elio discussed in one of his YouTube videos that at Harrenhal, Ser Barristan saying she was "dishonoured" might be different from what Ashara thought. So Oberyn might think that Rhaegar was taking Lyanna as his paramour.

[wolfmaid7]

Rhaeger is god--become one of us, one of us

But, yes, it does seem to be going down that rabbit hole a little bit--I say give it a week till Episode 2, where we will have 1) the Purple Wedding to talk about and 2) likely at least a Bran scene (if not maybe the Craster's Keep one? Probably not, but who knows)

No No -The power of the cold ones compell thee(x4).

OK, first things first, can we please get rid of these silly spoiler tags.

As to the white book:

"...while defending the honour and property of the Dornish princess, Elia Martell. Handed command to Ser Arthur Dayne due to sustained injuries the same year. Broke three lances against Oswell Whent at the tourney at Harrenhal and fought with great distinction at the melee.

Dispatched by King Aerys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion.

Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow a knee to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell."

"Despatched by King Aerys to locate Rhaegar in the wake of the rebellion."

Nothing new here. That's exactly what we've always been told his was charged to do and he did it successfully, because Rhaegar came north and had a substantial force of Dornishmen under him at the Trident.

What we're not told is how long it took him to find Rhaegar. There's no reason why it shouldn't have taken him months of searching, and its also significant that it was the Lord Commander who was sent; a man who was trusted and who could be trusted to find Rhaegar and who had the authority to insist that Rhaegar return

Remember that scene when Jory Cassel attempt to interview Ser Hugh of the Vale and is told to piss off because Ser Hugh is a knight and Jory isn't. Somehow the White Bull doesn't strike me as the type to be fobbed off with "I'm a prince and you're not".

"Died...after refusing to bow a knee to the new King..."

Oddly enough that's exactly what Ned remembers.

Interesting reference to "a small force" - that sounds like more than seven.

No spoiler tags finally

Spoiler

Thoroughly enjoyed the new episode and its tidy method of setting up events to come. The Easter eggs were a treat, especially the Duncan the Tall reference and blue rose. What really caught my attention was the foreshadowing of Arya's path to Braavos and the HoB&W as the horses she and the Hound ride are black and white. Of course the irony of Arya, the maiden, riding off on a beautiful white courser is intriguing since she is moving towards a very dark path. We know where the Hound's black horse, Stranger (and likely the man himself) are headed. The transfer of Arya to her new vehicle is quite profound and could be misleading to casual viewers.

Yes i noted the blue rose significance in my spoiler and took that as a subtle nod toward a dangerous man manuverng a naive young girl.Which could have been the way it went down with R+L. Daario was teaching Dany strategy,i wonder??

I think this is the first but of info we have on Ser Dayne's father and that he was the second son, which now makes more sense with him joining the KG and being the Sword of the Morning (even if it isn't from the books).

Yes i found this interesting as well and if we look at the episode with Oberyn and Tyrion talking we get that sense that there are some tasks are left to the "second sons" those task seem to be less desireable or dangerous.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Episode one was broadcast the same time as it was in the States, so 2am this morning for us, so you could've either recorded it to watch later or you could've watched it live.

Is ep 2 going to be simulcast?

If so, I would say that come 8GMT (3EST) we should be good to go without spoiler tags then--if you need to procure the episode outside of HBO proper, this gives you 5 hours to do so before spoiler tag free talking begins (and lines up nicely with when the Brits are getting up and starting to post)