Family, Duty, Honor: The Catelyn Re-read Project

[BrienneofQarth]

Excellent thread :thumbsup: I hope that it yields some good things. Cat is long due a re-read.

I have a great love of Catelyn for what she represents within the generic boundaries of fantasy - in a genre where the mothers (and a fair few fathers) seem overwhelmingly dead to begin with, it is refreshing to consider the motivations, and significance of a living mother; I really enjoyed Lord Stoneheart's inclusion of that quote from GRRM about the place of mothers in fantasy.

I do have a kind of theory (and I know there are probably many better ones on the subject out there....) that this fantasy trope recurs so often because the dead mother can represent a kind of lost youthful security; a long- lost Eden, (or a Gaia) if you like, from whose loss the story of the orphan-hero can unfold. I think that GRRM's opening chapters represent a deliberate subversion of this fantasy feature -- I love Asoiaf because it so often functions as a kind of black parody of traditional tropes.

However, I think the early chapters still have something in common with this traditional fantasy trope- the society of Winterfell in the early chapters take the place of 'Eden'; this split second in which the Starks exist as a happyish family unit introduces us into Westeros - and Catelyn is at its centre. And, without getting too far ahead of ourselves, I think that Cat's subsequent de-centering and distancing from the heart of Winterfell, is symbolic of the eventual fate of the Starks as a political and familial unit.

[Kyoshi]

Catelyn I, aGoT [sNIP]

Great Analysis, Lord Stoneheart! :cheers: Thanks! I only have a few thoughts to share:

I'll start by aplogising if it seems my post is digressing, but I promise you it is not (I hope). Some of the criticism Catelyn receives is due to her hatred for Jon Snow. I don't think Cat ever hated Jon. I think she's one of those people who, when they don't understand something fully, are wary of it. Take these lines from the chapter:

Catelyn had never liked this godswood... ...the gods who lived here had no names... ...Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

The gods of the Seven are well defined: you got to the Mother for protection, the Father for fairness, the Warrior for courage, etc. Their prayers have structure, none of it is a to-your-own-discretion kind of deal. While neither religion has an advanced dogma, such as can be seen with say, Islam or Christianity, the old gods seem even more vague.

Furthermore, when Ned dismisses the talk of darker things she points to the direwolf in a if I had told you this morning there was a direwolf south of the Wall would you have believed me manner. The point I am trying to make is that from this chapter we are supposed to take that Catelyn likes understanding things. Given evidence (signs/symbolism counts since this is a world of dragons and talking ravens) Catelyn is not unreasonable.

She says she knows Lysa needs family around her. This is from observing the somewhat troubled Lysa in their childhood. It is said that the Lannister woman's pride grows with each year so she warns Ned to guard his tongue. If Ned had not kept secrets who knows how things would have happened? :dunno: Or maybe I'm just reading too much into everything.

Historical Parallels (If Anyone Is Interested)

Reading this chapter reminded me of an (Mughal) Indian Emperor--Akbar the Great, and his wife--Jodhabai. He was Muslim and she was Hindu and you have to understand that these people lived in the 1500-1600s. Religion has always caused a big divide between South Asian communities, even now, but back then it was a much bigger deal. Especially since he was an Emperor and she was his first wife. But after they were married he allowed her to have a temple at the royal palace and worship her own gods. She never converted. Cat and Ned remind me of these two.

[David Selig]

Great Analysis, Lord Stoneheart! :cheers: Thanks! I only have a few thoughts to share:

I'll start by aplogising if it seems my post is digressing, but I promise you it is not (I hope). Some of the criticism Catelyn receives is due to her hatred for Jon Snow. I don't think Cat ever hated Jon. I think she's one of those people who, when they don't understand something fully, are wary of it. Take these lines from the chapter:

The gods of the Seven are well defined: you got to the Mother for protection, the Father for fairness, the Warrior for courage, etc. Their prayers have structure, none of it is a to-your-own-discretion kind of deal. While neither religion has an advanced dogma, such as can be seen with say, Islam or Christianity, the old gods seem even more vague.

Furthermore, when Ned dismisses the talk of darker things she points to the direwolf in a if I had told you this morning there was a direwolf south of the Wall would you have believed me manner. The point I am trying to make is that from this chapter we are supposed to take that Catelyn likes understanding things. Given evidence (signs/symbolism counts since this is a world of dragons and talking ravens) Catelyn is not unreasonable.

This is a really good point. Catelyn is very practical and pragmatic kind of person and naturally seems uncomfortable with the vagueness and mysteriousness of the Old Gods.

[UVA]

First, I'm very happy to see a well-balanced re-read of Cat, a character I'm very sympathetic towards.

I don't see this difference along the northern – southern axis, but rather as the difference between the male and the female approach ("children's stories" are associated with women). Ned believes in solid, empirical facts (which sets him up as a "detective" later in the story), and he quotes Maester Luwin as authority (versus Old Nan), while Catelyn is inclined to believe in ancient stories and myths, the product of collective wisdom (rather than individual learning), which Ygritte calls "a bard's truth". I think the duality of myths / legends / songs / prophecies versus empirical facts is a constant theme in the novel, and it is established in the first chapters (not only in this one but in the previous one as well), but here it is depicted as part of the male / female angles. I look forward to seeing whether this empirical / spiritual approach to reality comes up again with Catelyn and Ned in later chapters.

Note that while Cat heeds a certain spirituality, of the North in particular, she's not wholly comfortable with it, as others have suggested. But I like this comparison a lot! The Male vs. the female, spiritual vs. rational, but I wonder how well that distinction remains going forward. Does the male/female dichotomy transform into a difference between integrity (defined as a strict adherence to a moral code) and the practical, being able to adapt?

[LordStoneheart]

This might be the wrong place to mention such things but someone suggested to compare Catelyn I with the corresponding scene with GoT and how it's different. Anyone want such a thing? :-]

Never mind. I'll do that elsewhere. A tumblr blog or something.

[BastardlyRock]

May I be the first to say... great first week everybody! Kudos to LordStoneheart for getting the ball rolling with an awesome first chapter analysis and thanks to everyone else who've stopped by to comment, lend support, and offer your own insightful and well considered analysis. As I prepare to post AGoT Cat II, I want to preface it with some thoughts for your consideration.... 1. I am not the world's biggest Cat fan (I believe our very own LordStoneheart owns that honor) 2. I'm nowhere near the world's biggest Cat fan, however, 3. I'm not a Cat-Hater, and I feel the majority of the hate she receives is misplaced. With that in mind, my analysis may come across as being very sympathetic in an attempt to curb the numerous negative (and by now quite old) critiques that we've all seen and heard. Feel free to call me out! Or agree, or see things entirely different, that's the purpose of the discussion :D But as has already been pointed out, this is not a bash thread, and we'd appreciate it if snide, hateful, snarky, irrelevant, or otherwise mean-spirited comments stopped at the door. Here's to the kind of thoughtful, fresh, unique analysis of Cat that we've seen thus far. :cheers:

[BastardlyRock]

Catelyn II, aGoT


Overview

Following their lovemaking, Catelyn and Ned discuss the matter of Robert’s recent offer for Ned to take the position of Hand of the King. Their conversation is soon interrupted, however, by Maester Luwin, bearing a secret message from Lysa claiming her husband, Jon Arryn, was murdered by the Lannisters, namely “the queen.” Equipped with this new-found knowledge, Catelyn further presses the urgency of her husband’s accepting the king’s offer, despite Ned’s reluctance. When finally Ned concedes, Catelyn learns that Ned intends to bring Bran along with Sansa and Arya, leaving Rickon, Robb and Jon Snow at Winterfell. The thought of losing Bran is almost too difficult for Cat, but Ned convinces her by noting that Ser Rodrick claimed there was “bad feeling” between Robb and Joffrey, and that Bran may be able to “bridge that.” On the topic of Jon, however, Cat is less lenient, recalling early years after Robert’s Rebellion and giving some insight into Jon’s parentage. Cat remains steadfast in her decision to not allow Jon to stay in Winterfell which leads Maestar Luwin to broach the subject of Jon’s desire to take the black. Once it is decided, Ned says he himself would break the news to Jon.



General Observations

This chapter continues to bring Cat’s concerns to the forefront. While Ned is apprehensive (at best) concerning the king’s offer (in fact he quite wants to stay in Winterfell), Cat persists, first by citing the suspicion it may arouse in the king should his offer be denied, and later when fueled by the letter from her sister. It's apparent early on that the preservation of her family is of the utmost importance to Cat.

“Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert’s Hand. You must go south with him and learn the truth.”

While we know in retrospect this is little better than a death sentence for Ned, at the time the concern seems more than natural for Cat. She clearly puts great faith in her husband’s abilities to discern the truth of Jon Arryn’s murder. This kind of trust is indicative of the marriage they’ve built, which so earnestly emphasizes mutual respect and, over time, a strongly developed faith in one another. Ned, however, seems less sure. Again, with the gift of retrospect there is a haunting resonance in her husband’s response,

“My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again.”

Cat’s urging seems to stem from the fear she feels for her family, and the duty she feels her husband must uphold. In fact most of her actions in this chapter embody the Tully family motto, and I would argue GRRM set Cat up early on with the challenges she and her family face as a means to break the mold of the traditional fantasy mother/wife character, as LordStoneheart pointed out.

Regarding Sansa's Betrothal

Immediately following their lovemaking Ned stands stark naked at the open window while Catelyn reminisces about Riverrun. We learn for the first time of Winterfell’s natural hot springs and their ability to warm the castle. (I know speculation has arose concerning any future purpose for the springs in the story but I can’t help but feel they’re simply part of GRRM’s fleshing out the mechanics of the castle.) The importance Cat puts on family becomes more than evident as she goes from hoping that Ned’s seed will quicken inside her so she may give him another son, to imploring Ned to consider Sansa’s potential betrothal to Joffrey. Part of Cat’s concern seems likely to come from the fear of hurting Robert’s pride, but another part genuinely seems to long for Sansa’s ascension. Of course, Cat knows little and less of Joffrey’s true nature at this time, and undoubtedly would consider the situation differently had she known.



Regarding the Letter

The mysterious box delivered to Maester Luwin as he slept contained only an observatory lens, the symbolism of which Cat is quick to point out

"A lens is an instrument to help us see."

The true message is written in a secret code only Cat and Lysa understand, and happening upon this I immediately thought of the runes on Bronze Yohn’s armor. While it’s hard to believe the two may be physically connected, it's interesting to me that his indecipherable runes presumably protect him from harm, and this secret message is intended to protect Cat from harm. Cat unforgettably strides naked across the room, unashamed in front of Maester Luwin, an act I feel helps to further define her as a woman of confidence early on. It’s a testament to her character that she seems unwilling to play the typical maternal role despite being imbued with such strong qualities of motherhood and an uncanny foresight and intuition.



Regarding Bran

I couldn’t help but wonder had Bran ended up traveling south what impact he may have actually had on the dynamics of the Stark/Lannister relationship. I lean towards very little, as I don’t see his presence there swaying Joffrey towards goodness as Ned had hoped. Of note here is Catelyn’s undeniable desire to keep Bran close to her (a wish she is soon and horribly granted). Knowing how she blames herself later for Bran’s fall gives her internal monologue and desperate plea here a saddening, albeit ironic impact.

It’s interesting too to look at Cat’s feelings towards Bran in comparison to her feelings towards Sansa. I don’t think Cat exhibits any desire to really strengthen their house’s ties with the other major houses, (any more so than the other houses) but I can’t help but wonder at what point her wish to see the potential conflict with the Lannisters temper down (through betrothals etc.) and her wish to see her kids following their dreams and their hearts meet.



Regarding Jon Snow

It should be noted that Cat doesn’t specifically send Jon to the Wall, or even hint at the Wall, but instead asserts that he can’t stay in Winterfell. With Ned making it clear that Jon wouldn’t be a welcome sight in King’s Landing either, the choices became fewer yet.

Cat gives her first impression of unhappiness over Jon Snow shortly after bringing up her early betrothal to Brandon as a talking point in Sansa’s betrothal. As Eddard stews over the matter of his ascension to Lord of Winterfell, Cat ponders,

…the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

Soon after the matter of Bran’s departure is settled, Cat grows prickly concerning Jon. It’s here that we are clued in to the story of Ashara Dayne, the first rumored name around Winterfell after Cat’s arrival following the war. Ned’s response is perhaps the most damaging here. She recalls Ned’s rage after having finally managed to gather her courage and ask,

The only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

While his reply goes a long way to support R+L=J, it’s clearly not helpful in assisting a rightfully betrayed and wronged-feeling new spouse understand why she must now see the walking talking evidence of her husband’s infidelity every day of her life. As Kyoshi pointed out in regards to the previous chapter, Cat seems wary of things she doesn’t fully understand, and this is no truer than in regards to Jon. Take for a second one of my favorite quotes from the chapter:

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord (Ned) had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Note GRRM's word choice and syntax here. This mysterious and beautiful "Starfall" is just that, something unknown to Cat, something far away and unfamiliar. It's as if GRRM purposefully painted it as the idealistic castle of a fairy tale, and Ashara Dayne the fair maiden who could do no wrong. This image has been built up in Cat's head, while Cat on the other hand is a real woman, with real faults and real struggles. For Cat this is a part of her husband she can't touch, a part she can never fully understand, maybe the only part.

As a result she distances herself from Jon and regards him cooly because subconsciously he represents a fear of that unknown. But moreover, he represents a danger to the protective bubble around her family which she has worked so hard to preserve and one which she values so dearly. Regardless, Cat’s insight (and I know I talk about her "insights" a lot but they're truly one of her greatest gifts) is as true as ever when she reflects,

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.

[LordStoneheart]

Great post, Bastardly!

I'd like to say that as far as Family, Duty, Honor goes, I think they are blending here. First, Ned speaks of his duty to the North, then Cat speaks of honors in Robert's eyes and hers, and then the prospect of Sansa being Queen someday. I think Cat's line right here is key to looking at this:

Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?

Aside from the way Joffrey turned out, something that not many could have predicted IMO, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with ambition and this line would not have any trouble if Joffrey was a good prince and a good king.

These blurred factors, what Ned's duties are, what is honorable, and what's best for the family, are all at the forefront for them now and it is a treacherous slope either way.

One other thing I'd like to point out is what I perceive to be hypocrisy by Ned, but understandably so.

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal of her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself. "

"And none of them has ever been seen in court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that! How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn?..."

In the space of three sentences, Ned declares the Lannister woman responsible for Robert's bastards not being at court, yet he calls Catelyn cruel. Catelyn, who for fifteen years has tolerated the sight of Jon, is cruel while the Lannister woman is not declared as such. Ned cares about Jon, so I consider this a more emotional hypocrisy, and understandable. He's not being fair to compare her to Cersei who has actively worked against her husband's other children.

[BearQueen87]

Catelyn II, aGoT

Really well done! I'm like you, I think: I'm not Cat's biggest fan, nor her second biggest. I question some of her choices but on the whole it depends on which chapter I'm reading, I think.

So like I pointed out with Cat I, the marriage of Ned and Cat is actually the atypical marriage in Westeros. Ned and Cat get compared and contrasted (at least in my head) to the other two big marriages in aGoT (since that's the novel at hand): Cersei and Robert and Dany and Drogo. This chapter opens post-coitus. Now, GRRM has a lot of way of describing the act of love and it varies from couple to couple. Robert climbs on top of Cersei and later Cersei finished Robert off, disgusted. The early instances of sex between Drogo and Dany are painful to the point of tears and even later when Dany begins to enjoy it, GRRM always uses instances of "after Drogo had taken his pleasure" and never any mention of Dany's own pleasure; and we see one case where sex is incredibly quick and not really satisfying for Dany (Womb of the World). In other cases people shudder, spill, grunt, or it's treated decidedly un-romantic, if not a bit awkward. (Petyr and Lysa on their wedding come to mind). I swear there is a point to this. First, "when they had finished" implies the act was enjoyed by both. Second, Cat's "loins ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache." In other words, Cat and Ned both enjoyed this act of love. And GRRM is flat out calling it lovemaking; not screwing, fucking, rutting or any other variation thereof. So in the private setting, Cat and Ned are already different from the other big marriages in aGoT.

The second difference is in the political matters (which interestingly enough get talked about while they are still in Cat's bed chamber, having just finished making love.) Can anyone picture Cersei and Robert like this? Cause I sure as hell can't. Drogo and Dany do get a bit more like this as time moves on, but even when Dany is trying to discuss taking Westeros after Drogo has taken his pleasure one night, Drogo rejects what Dany says and simply goes out to hunt. Ned and Cat are not only husband and wife, father and mother, they are partners. I think that's really key with Cat; she's not out for her own political glory or her own ambitions. She's Ned's helpmate and everything that comes after is a reflection of that--she has to help Ned and her family.

I think Cat is more observant than Ned. She sees that Robert isn't the same man he once was and that being the boy Ned knew and being the King of the 7 Kingdoms is quite a bit different, whereas Ned walks through aGoT thinking that Robert will still be the boy he loved and knew at the Vale. Cat sees quite quickly that, "pride is everything to a king" and knows that Ned cannot refuse Robert.

Cat’s urging seems to stem from the fear she feels for her family, and the duty she feels her husband must uphold. In fact most of her actions in this chapter embody the Tully family motto, and I would argue GRRM set Cat up early on with the challenges she and her family face as a means to break the mold of the traditional fantasy mother/wife character, as LordStoneheart pointed out.

I agree. Ned has no desire for these honors, he never has. He even thinks of Brandon bitterly and how the cup of WF and Cat passed to him unasked, though I think we all know that Ned would not trade his wife and children for anything. Cat, on the other hand, still lives by her Tully words and knows that this is a great chance for their family--their whole family.

The importance Cat puts on family becomes more than evident as she goes from hoping that Ned’s seed will quicken inside her so she may give him another son, to imploring Ned to consider Sansa’s potential betrothal to Joffrey. Part of Cat’s concern seems likely to come from the fear of hurting Robert’s pride, but another part genuinely seems to long for Sansa’s ascension. Of course, Cat knows little and less of Joffrey’s true nature at this time, and undoubtedly would consider the situation differently had she known.

Again, I agree.

It should be noted that Cat doesn’t specifically send Jon to the Wall, or even hint at the Wall, but instead asserts that he can’t stay in Winterfell. With Ned making it clear that Jon wouldn’t be a welcome sight in King’s Landing either, the choices became fewer yet.

Alright, so I just wrote two very long paragraphs that led up to Cat being Ned's partner, and I still believe that to be true. Except when it comes to Jon. Now, I don't blame Cat in this moment. We know Jon wants to go to the Wall, so for Cat to speak out now would actually bother me more. But when it comes to Jon, Cat cannot take Ned's side and probably never will (in fact, we know she doesn't want Jon to be heir in a book in the far future). I also talked about how observant Cat is, but she also blinds herself when it comes to Jon; one of the roots of this blindness toward Jon is that he stands to threaten Robb and Robb's own claim to WF. When it comes to Jon, the facts are that he is not of her body, he is a reminder of Ned's sense of honor that she would have been fine with if it didn't eat at her table with her, and most importantly he threatens her family just by living. Even though Cat knows that Robb and Jon are very close and that life for Jon would be hard in the South, she is immovable here. It's a battle for her: "Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes."

In the space of three sentences, Ned declares the Lannister woman responsible for Robert's bastards not being at court, yet he calls Catelyn cruel. Catelyn, who for fifteen years has tolerated the sight of Jon, is cruel while the Lannister woman is not declared as such. Ned cares about Jon, so I consider this a more emotional hypocrisy, and understandable. He's not being fair to compare her to Cersei who has actively worked against her husband's other children.

I think a large part of this conversation and why it's so interesting to go back and re-read is Cat, while coming across as cruel to Ned, doesn't know everything and Ned is forgetting that. I'm going to go ahead and assume RLJ for this. Cat doesn't know that Jon is not Ned's bastard and that Ned has been working for the past 14 years to keep Lyanna's son by Rhaegar safe. Now, I go back and forth a lot about what Cat would have done if she knew about RLJ; I still think she'd want Jon out of the way to safeguard Robb's right to WF. I've always thought that Ned, who Cat says has the fury on him during the last moments of this conversation before Luwin jumps in, was about to say something he might regret later. His "He is only a boy. He--" is a buildup to telling Cat who Jon is because "he might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in." I think we're supposed to recognize that while they are the atypical marriage in Westeros and deeply in love and partners in almost all ways, there is a secret between them that can never be spoken. But unlike with Robert and Cersei, it's not Cersei's secret...it's Ned's. Another point of comparison.

Great job again BastardofCasterlyRock!

[Mladen]

BastardofCasterlyRock, congrats on nice analysis... Really good job.

Whenever I return to this chapter, I always find quite interesting how GRRM has slowly started to break the established concepts of the roles in ASOIAF. Basically, Catelyn is supposed to be a mother. And throughout the series, motherhood is by far the most powerful driving force in her storyarc. But, as this, and many other chapters will show us, she is much more. In this chapter we see Catelyn as sexual being, a woman who finds pleasure in sexual intercourse with her husband, a woman comfortable with her body and nakedness. Furthermore, this chapter reestablished the bond between spouses, level of trust and Catelyn's role as the counselor of her husband. Therefore, we can easily conclude that this chapter is depicting Catelyn more as human being with all its aspects, virtues and flaws, and not just the mother figure of ASOIAF.

Regarding Catelyn's ambitions and desires for family, I think there is a deep misunderstanding of the scene. I feel like people are watching Ned (and apparently whole House Stark and even North) as some sort of unambitious being while Catelyn (thus a South) represents the ambition and blind desire for prosperity. Needless to say, this is rather wrong perception of not only in gross oversimplification of entire regions, but even in these two characters. In this talk, Catelyn isn't as ambitious as caring, practical and concerned. Ned's reluctance, as we know, comes from disappointment with Robert and general dislike of Lannisters. He does understand the roles his children will have to take one day (I will get to that in a minute), but in this, Ned is emotional and not reasonable. Catelyn's position about the gifts is rather more sane and she does understand the danger of refusing such offer. She sees her idealist husband making decision based on the Robert which is no more, and she basically wants to shake his head up and bring him to his senses. And regardless of how the entire affair ended, the thing is that in that very moment, she was more than right to do so.

Now, here is a little digression about something that is usually overlooked in this chapter and it concerns Arya. We usually believe, and in lion's share we are right about that, that Catelyn is the one enforcing the Southorn ways with her daughters. Where we make mistake is that we mostly believe that she is the only one in that parenting duo. Ned, just as Catelyn, understands the need of "taming" Arya. He is the one who wants to take Arya to the capitol for educational purposes so one day she would follow Sansa's steps and got herself a proper marriage. Ned is in no way different than Catelyn in his views what Arya's future would be. And when it comes to the engagement with Elmar, it isn't far-fetched, actually it isn't even wrong, to assume that Ned would also engage Arya to someone without her saying. After all this is the same man who said to Sansa "I will find you a man who is brave and strong" (paraphrasing). Ned is as much as traditionalist as Catelyn, and it would be rather wrong to put it all on Catelyn.

The second misconception regarding this chapter is that Catelyn drove Jon to NW. Although she certainly didn't want him in Winterfell with Ned gone, the decision about Jon going to Wall, not only that wasn't hers, but was made before this chapter. And, even more, it was made by Jon. So, to say that Cat drove Jon away would be a huge mistake. Jon went because he wanted to progress and the enforced system in Westeros didn't allow him that. Wall did. The chance of raising high on Wall is what made it a good choice in Jon's eyes... We can't put that on Catelyn as much as we can't put that on Robb becoming Lord of Winterfell.

Overall, nice job... I really enjoy on this thread... :cheers:

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Great project going on here!

Just some random thoughts here -

Ned comes off as being politically naive, while Cat is much more savvy. Ned was actually surprised when Robert proposed the Joff-Sansa match; I suspect that Cat (and almost everyone else in the 7K) had been expecting it for 10 years. She's been grooming Sansa for that role, but that doesn't make Cat some sort of power-hungry climber. It is simply her job to ensure her daughters are prepared for their future life. Plus, there's nothing wrong with having the "ambition" to give your children as good or better opportunities as you had.

Cat also understands how a refusal of the Handship would look to Robert much better than Ned does.

On Jon. Jon's presence in Winterfell is an affront to Cat's pride as a wife and her pride as a Tully. The Tullys are one of the top level families in the power and social structure of Westeros, theoretically on a level with the Starks and the Lannisters. Their position may be a bit newer, but then so is that of the Tyrells, and the Tullys achieved theirs through victory rather than defeat (Tyrells replacing the Gardeners.) She has every right to be proud. Her reaction to Jon is understandable, especially since Ned hasn't shown any inclination to make long term plans for Jon's eventual disposition.

The posters running this reread certainly picked the right name for it. Family, Duty Honor. Those three words (and very emphatically in that order) are the key to understanding Cat. Family comes first. It's her greatest strength and her greatest weakness. Her greatest mistakes will come from trusting family members (as we see here with Lysa) or those she considers family members (Littlefinger) too much.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Back to civilization… again, thanks to LordStoneheart and to theBastardofCasterlyRock for their excellent analyses. Some notes on the first chapter, to catch up.

As Mladen noticed, we are introduced to Winterfell and the North through the eyes of a fellow foreigner as we the readers are foreigners too. Catelyn is our guide as someone who is both familiar and a stranger in the same time, who apprehends our unspoken questions and her role in this chapter is to fill the gaps of our understanding. Her world –the South– and her religion –the Seven– with its ritualistic worship feeling much like Catholicism, are quite close to what we know and understand. Catelyn is religious in the way most Westerosi (and most of real-world people, actually) are: she prays to the gods of her ancestors. Her way of worship is a cultural thing, not a dogmatic one.

This is our first contact with ASOIAF religion and a thing that I found impressing here (that is consistent with most characters) is that people believe in all gods. There is no “true god” / “false god” dichotomy until we meet the R’hllor fanatics; all gods “exist” and people just pray to their own, those of their fathers or those who answer to their prayers. In this, there is a departure from our own real-world Middle Ages where religious conflicts, extremely bloody more often than not, set the tone. However, the inclusion of R’hllorists and the Sparrows in later books may imply that this notable religious tolerance is about to change…

I really liked a lot the point of Julia H. regarding the male/female approach of the supernatural. But we should also keep in mind that this is another big, big departure from the real-world medieval mindset: in ASOIAF world, as we know from the very first prologue, supernatural powers are real. What we don’t know yet is that the Order of Maesters, who more or less determine the common knowledge, believes and attitudes in Westeros, being in charge of the ruling class’ education among everything else, have a very distinct approach towards the Supernatural, they are almost Cartesian rationalists and actively discourage research on these matters, just like the status quo would actively discourage research on natural phenomena in our real history. This is an intended, I believe, subversion from the real world: the most open-minded a character is in ASOIAF, the more he/she is willing to allow a possibility for “magical” (in contrast to “rational”) explanations. That, IMO, makes Catelyn (and by extension the “female approach”) more open-minded and out of the box thinker; that’s even more emphasized by her very well made and really logical arguments to support her opinions.

On Cat’s and Ned’s relationship: Their marriage and family is the closest thing we get to our own notions of marriage and family. There is love, respect, partnership, care for their children, care for each other’s feelings, emotional support… This is, perhaps, a reason that the readers love the Starks so much. With all the virtues and their flaws, while they are consistent to the setting of the story (feudal and patriarchal society with everything this entails) we can still recognize in them the familiar relationships we are used to. In a way, naïve and sheltered as they are in the start of the story, they enter this adventure as “naked” and unprepared as we do. Winter is coming are the Stark words, but ironically the Starks, Catelyn included even though she’s more savvy than Ned, are patently Sweet summer children…

[BearQueen87]

Now, here is a little digression about something that is usually overlooked in this chapter and it concerns Arya. We usually believe, and in lion's share we are right about that, that Catelyn is the one enforcing the Southorn ways with her daughters. Where we make mistake is that we mostly believe that she is the only one in that parenting duo. Ned, just as Catelyn, understands the need of "taming" Arya. He is the one who wants to take Arya to the capitol for educational purposes so one day she would follow Sansa's steps and got herself a proper marriage. Ned is in no way different than Catelyn in his views what Arya's future would be. And when it comes to the engagement with Elmar, it isn't far-fetched, actually it isn't even wrong, to assume that Ned would also engage Arya to someone without her saying. After all this is the same man who said to Sansa "I will find you a man who is brave and strong" (paraphrasing). Ned is as much as traditionalist as Catelyn, and it would be rather wrong to put it all on Catelyn.

Speaking of the Stark's and their children, one thing I've always thought was interesting was the parents and who they are paired with. If this were typical fantasy set in this type of world, we expect that Cat would interact more with Sansa and Arya and less with Robb and Bran, just like we would expect that Ned would interact more with Robb and Bran (and Rickon when he was older) than with Sansa and Arya. Of all Ned and Cat's children, Ned ends up only taking his daughters south, whereas Cat stays in WF with only her sons. In fact, because the party leaves for KL so early in the series, we never really see Cat interact with either of her daughters, just like we never really see Ned interact with his sons. Don't know if there is anything to this apart from GRRM-type subversion, but wanted to point it out.

[BastardlyRock]

Thanks for all the wonderful comments everyone! There's so much insight here it's mind boggling. ShadowCat River's point about the reader entering the world through the eyes of the Starks, and by and large as naive as them, wonderfully parallels what a few have already pointed out in terms of entering the Godswood as a foreigner with Cat. When I have the opportunity I'd like to dig into everyone's analysis a bit deeper, but thanks to everyone so far for the kind words and thoughtful analyses.

[Julia H.]

Great discussion on the second Catelyn chapter!

I would like to add that I have always found it very interesting how we learn "the short history" of Cat and Ned's marriage in this chapter. In the first Catelyn chapter, their relationship seemed almost too good to be true in the context of a novel ("happy families are all alike..."), and it is in this chapter that we learn that this is in fact a hard-earned happiness, neither perfect nor out of touch with the reality of a medieval society. It was an arranged marriage, as could realistically be expected, what is more, Ned sort of "inherited" Catelyn from his brother, just as he inherited Winterfell. It means that family, duty and honor are inextricably intertwined in their lives – Ned was duty-bound and honour-bound to marry Catelyn to keep up the already agreed on alliance between the two families in the same way as he was bound to accept Winterfell and all that it meant.

The mention of Brandon "brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth". We can notice that despite his very real, sincerely valued and rather unique domestic happiness, he still feels somewhat bitter about practically living Brandon's life.

"Brandon. Yes, Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

Now that he has to make a difficult decision, he seems to be wondering whether he is the right man for all these jobs and positions (perhaps including even the position of Catelyn Tully's husband).

There are two shadows between them, Brandon's shadow and the shadow of Jon Snow's mother. At first glance, it may seem that neither of them can get over the other one's "first love", but, of course, the real issues are completely different. Brandon is not only Catelyn's first husband-to-be, but also Ned's older brother, whose death gave Ned everything his life is based on now; and Jon Snow's mother – that's an even more complicated shadow.

As we find out more about their lives and the problems they struggle with, their love for each other, their "imperfect" happiness and true partnership seem even more valuable.

[aje12]

You are doing God's work everyone! Catelyn is such an interesting, rich character and i haven't ever read a re-read this detailed or intelligent for her!

Catelyn II is where the game of thrones intrigue truly begins. We are given a negative inkling of the Lannister's by the previous chapters, but this is the one where they are explicitly told the Lannisters are up to something.

Some Points I found when I read it.

• Early on, Catelyn is associated with heart and stone imagery. The hot water ran through the stone like blood in a man's body. I think Winterfell's heating system, while probably being magical and will be explained in the next two books, also is an analogy for the Starks. Cold on the outside, but loving and warm on the inside. Interesting how Ned and Catelyn's differences really manifest themselves in coolness/warmth. Ned, being the northerner finds the mild warmth of Catelyn's rooms unbearable, while comfortable standing in front of an open window that Catelyn describes as 'cold as the grave'. Yet despite this they sleep together, as opposed to separately, which shows that their love for each other overcomes their differences.
  
• It really seems like GRRM was conciously subverting stereotypes early on. A motherly, medieval, great lady in any other novel would be totally modest about things such as nudity, but Catelyn is more practical than that; shes comfortable with her body and sees no issue if her gyno sees her nude.
  
• So Catelyn was always a supporter (rightfully so) as mentioned above of Ned going to Kings Landing. However judging by her reaction when Ned tells her she would stay in WF, she had intended to go with him, and while she still supports the move, it now comes at a cost. The honor and future of her family at a cost of members from her family. I wonder what Catelyn would have wanted to happen? Did she think Robb could run WF alone, with Luwin and all the others, or did she want someone else to rule while her family was in the south? I believe if Catelyn had gone to King's Landing with the rest of the family, so much could have been avoided. Her pragmatism and intuition may have prevented Ned from making many mistakes such telling Cersei, and her affinity towards politics in comparison to Ned (and also her relationship with LF) may have saved the Starks.
  
• I think Catelyn is the example of a very powerful woman in a patriarchy. Cat is her husbands no. 1 counseller. She was raised as an heir and after Edmure's birth and her Mother's death, she was the lady of riverrun. She was trained from birth to be a great and power lady. Ned however was a second son with probably far less training. There discussions seem for the most part very equal and balanced. Catelyn, particularly being the more assertive of the pair, would have considerable power in ruling he north. However at the end of the day, if Ned lays down the law, Catelyn must follow.
  
• Something that struck me also is Catelyn's relationship with Bran. In the first few chapters, Catelyn's clearly has a favourite child in Bran. It makes sense really; he is the most gentle and caring of the Stark children which is an endearing quality, he is sweet and gentle but unlike Sam Tarly he is strong and brave and a son any lord would be proud of. Also, Catelyn probably would have been glad when Bran arrived after two girls because of the importance placed on giving husbands 'sons' instead of 'sons and daughters.' Despite this emphasis on their close relaitonship early on however, after she has lost all her children she does not dwell more on missing Bran as opposed to the other ones.
  
• Reading this chapter again made me feel so sorry for Catelyn on the Jon Snow issue. Often she is painted as the villain in this, when really she is as much the victim as Jon. R+L=J aside, when you actually look at it from Catelyn's point of view, you realise how horrible it must have been. Married to a stranger, being forced to leave your home to go to a scary new land, only to find that your new husband has dishonored you in such a way. You try to broach the subject and instead of discussing it reasonably, he uses frightens you into never speaking of it again. Poor thing. I really don't like the way Ned begins to call cruel when she refuses to keep Jon at WF, Catelyn who put up with Jon for 15 years.
  

Great Chapter, though it hurts to know the direction they are heading.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Moving on to the second chapter, this is where Cat’s personality really starts to unravel.

The chapter opens with the after-sex scene. BearQueen87 did a very good job analyzing the scene in terms of Cat & Ned’s relationship. A few things I might add, from a somewhat different angle.

This scene reflects the intimacy of old lovers. There is tenderness in Cat’s thoughts of Ned amply spread all over the chapter:

He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain.

Catelyn’s heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him in her arms just then.

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes.

Ned comes to her bed in stress of making a difficult decision in which both options of the dilemma are bad. His lovemaking is described as urgent. It seems to me that Ned in this particular time seeks refuge in her familiar body, a sort of return in the womb. This, and the quotes above, gives me the feeling that Catelyn’s mother motif is present in this scene too.

(That doesn’t take away the fact that Cat is a sexual being. Throughout her story, her memories of Ned are more of a lover than merely lord husband and father of her children, but this is a discussion for the future.)

Cat is a very straightforward person. She has her own opinion and she is quite headstrong (not a negative trait at all, IMO) but she does not use manipulation of any kind to have her way. She tries to persuade by using logical arguments instead. The only time she appeals to Ned’s emotions is this:

“You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?”

And it really is a very mild case of emotional appeal, I think, and used as a last resort (“First the victory must be won, for her children’s sake”). All the rest of her arguments are clear examples of logical appeal.

On the flip side, Cat is also one to accept the validity of an opposing argument even when its consequences are extremely unpleasant to her:

He was right; Catelyn knew it. It did not make the pain any easier to bear. She would lose all four of them, then […]

Bedtime sweet talking has traditionally been the way for women to push for their wishes. The most prominent example in ASOIAF is Dany & Drogo. But that’s not Catelyn. Even early on, regarding the most sensitive issue, she was straight to the point:

It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Cat & Ned’s bedtime is the time for serious conversation and hard truths. They are naked there, both literally and metaphorically. No “floppy ears” of supposed ladylike proper behavior for her, no “lord’s face” for him. They are just who they are, free to expose their fears and, even, bitterness.

The image of equal partnership in all, except for the most important: no matter what, Ned has the final say…

ETA

Two almost identical quotes from Cat and Ned:

[...] She was not too old. She could give him another son.

Perhaps he and Catelyn would make a new son together when he returned, they were not so old yet.

Not too old and plans for a new baby... In times of difficulty, hope for life. So sad in hindsight...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Character similarities with her younger daughter

Willful and outspoken. Unworried about her appearance (when the time requires focus on other priorities). Insecure for Ned's love like Arya's for her love.

Except, Cat knows when to hold back:

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now.

But this is a trait that comes with age and education, Arya's "wolf blood" might make it more difficult but she has been learning.

All in all, Cat is far from septa Mordane's ideal of the perfect "southron lady".

Speaking of the Stark's and their children, one thing I've always thought was interesting was the parents and who they are paired with. If this were typical fantasy set in this type of world, we expect that Cat would interact more with Sansa and Arya and less with Robb and Bran, just like we would expect that Ned would interact more with Robb and Bran (and Rickon when he was older) than with Sansa and Arya. Of all Ned and Cat's children, Ned ends up only taking his daughters south, whereas Cat stays in WF with only her sons. In fact, because the party leaves for KL so early in the series, we never really see Cat interact with either of her daughters, just like we never really see Ned interact with his sons. Don't know if there is anything to this apart from GRRM-type subversion, but wanted to point it out.

When the story starts, things are getting atypical. Cat will be pushed into the metor role for Robb, forcing her to distance herself from the "traditional" mother role, and deprives the girls from their "natural" mentor, their mother. Ned has had difficulties in dealing with the daughters... A lot of what ifs here. Would the mother "get" better Sansa's infatuation with Joffrey and act to talk some sense to her daughter? Would she be able to comfort Arya's mourning and rage? Would she realize that the girls need to grow up really quickly and educate them into politics, as she did for Robb? Not really relevant in this re-read, but I do think that this particular separation (father with the girls, mother with the older son) has been done on purpose, to help advance the girls' character shaping.

Ned comes off as being politically naive, while Cat is much more savvy. Ned was actually surprised when Robert proposed the Joff-Sansa match; I suspect that Cat (and almost everyone else in the 7K) had been expecting it for 10 years. She's been grooming Sansa for that role, but that doesn't make Cat some sort of power-hungry climber. It is simply her job to ensure her daughters are prepared for their future life. Plus, there's nothing wrong with having the "ambition" to give your children as good or better opportunities as you had.

Cat also understands how a refusal of the Handship would look to Robert much better than Ned does.

I agree. But I wish she had let Ned finish his sentence "And Joffrey... Joffrey is...". It would be interesting to know what exactly Ned thought of Joff and how she would react to it. That's a negative trait she displays here, she thinks that Ned's opinion is biased and is quick to dismiss it before listening to it. (Ned is biased, though. Cersei to him is "the Lannister woman" before anything else. But it's very possible that in this case, he has had the story of Joff's behavior from Ser Rodrick.)

Speaking of Ned's bias,

In the space of three sentences, Ned declares the Lannister woman responsible for Robert's bastards not being at court, yet he calls Catelyn cruel. Catelyn, who for fifteen years has tolerated the sight of Jon, is cruel while the Lannister woman is not declared as such. Ned cares about Jon, so I consider this a more emotional hypocrisy, and understandable. He's not being fair to compare her to Cersei who has actively worked against her husband's other children.

I think that the defining adjective for Cersei here is "Lannister". In Ned's mind, Lannister is way beyond cruel. I don't think he's making any comparison; (According to Ned, by my admitedly subjective interpretation of his way of thinking) Catelyn is being "cruel" in the human scale of cruelty, while -as 'normal' for "a Lannister woman"- Cat's "cruelty" would be Cersei's compassion.

(Sorry for the multiple posts, I'm posting between laundry and other unpleasant duties :) )

[Queen Alienor]

Nice summary, BastardofCasterlyRock!

I think this chapter is interesting, because it shows Catelyn in so many roles. Of course, at first, she is the lover, having just had sex with her beloved. Then, she is the wife, contemplating her husband and his castle. Next, she is the advisor, the one Ned discusses politics with. Then she is the sister, remembering her private language with Lysa. Next comes the mother, thinking about her children and how much she will miss them. And finally, the lady, who makes it clear that Jon Snow will not be welcome in the castle if Ned isn't there. She is all of those, and I think it's really interesting how that works together. She wants the best for her daughters and husband (mother and wife) but at the same time she wants them to go south because she realises how it will look like if they don't go (advisor). She doesn't simply stay in the trope of the mother, who seldomly is allowed to remember having been a child, she goes out and is way more.

When we were girls together, we had a private language, she and I

I thought that incredibly cute, imagining to happy girls talking in their own language. It also implies that they were really close and that that got lost somewhere between than and now.

"Perhaps I shoud withdraw." Maester Luwin said. "No," Catelyn said. "We will need your counsel." She threw back the furs and climbed from the bed. The night air was as cold as the grave on her bare skin as she padded across the room.

Maester Luwin averted his eyes. Even Ned looked shocked. "What are you doing?" He asked.

"Lighting a fire," Catelyn told him.

For one, this passage shows Catelyn's confidence and how comfortable she is in her body, as others have noted. I also think it shows just how much the Starks value and trust Maester Luwin. There is no question for Catelyn that Luwin has to stay, and she is not ashamed of showing herself naked in front of him, even though Luwin, of course, averts his eyes.

[The Storm Queen]

This reread is such a good idea, thank you so much for doing it!

Some oberservations I made:

- This scene, to me, links Arya and Catelyn, as well as Ned and Sansa to a lesser extent, something that becomes more pronounced later in the books. While Catelyn from the outside acts like the perfect lady this seems to be a conscious adaption of social rules. Her "real self" is far more pragmatic. Her argumentation that Luwin has been with her during every birth and seen everything that is to see of her body is actually quite logical yet I am sure Septa Mordane would be deeply shocked by this sentiment. Ned on the other hand is the one far more affected by social conventions of proper female behavior here. This scene always made we wonder how Arya would have turned out if she was the eldest and had been forced into a more responsible role early on.

- In Catelyn discussions I often hear the sentiment that she's the motherly mother^tm however there seems to be a certain lack of awareness that in Westeros (and many other real-world premodern societies) the privat and the public sphere are not tidily separated. Catelyn and Ned are loving parents but their family life is not a purely private matter. For the lack of a better word the Starks are also a political entity, a party with fixed membership if you will. Both the discussion about Jon and the future of the Stark kids highlights this duality and we will later see both Ned and Cat struggle with this.