Three Little Pigs and Big Bad Wolf

[DanaKz]

or what the hell was going on in ToJ?

Well, I am absolutely sure it was discussed before (as everything else, including Rhaenyra's foot), but still...

It just so illogical, it annoys me to no end.

What do we have here:

Eddard came to the tower with six friends (where is his host? didn't he have any archers?).

Here he find three white quards doing absolutely nothing to prepare for the fight (even Oswell Whent's sword wasn't sharpened yet) - they are waiting before the tower (lucky guys, it's like they knew Ned will come with small party of six, not Tywin with an army).

Eddard asks them what the hell are they doing here - he asks it again and again and again. Three guards only badmouth Jaime, Tyrells and Willem Darry, praise themselves, strike some vogue poses and start a fight - and as we find later - only to protect Lyanna from Big Bad Wolf aka Lyanna's own brother. Sounds legit. Not.

Well, ok, probably Ned's dream was not true and they didn't have this ridiculous conversation, it's strange nevertheless.

Anyway, right, I know a theory,

They were protecting Jon Targaryen, rightful king of Westeros, legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, who had more rights than Viserys (which was crowned by Rhaella on Dragonstone by this moment). Oookeeey.

First question: if Lyanna was giving a birth this very moment, they didn't know it will be a boy, what if it was a girl? Their vow was to protect king Viserys, not a princess.

Second: Jon was already born, they knew it was a boy.

Ok then. They knew they are better warriors than anyone, but did they really were so cocky to think they can beat anyone without any problems? Yeah, Arthur died because Reed helped Ned, but Arthur and others died nevertheless - what a great job they did protecting their king: now nothing will stop Big Bad Wolf from killing his sister and her son.

Why not stay inside a tower and kill everyone who cross the threshold? Yeah, I know, honour etc, but what is more valueable, their honour or their king's life? Why one of them didn't flee with a child while remaining two delayed Ned and his men? Yeah, I know, kingsguard never flee, but what is better: run away with a child and save the king or die and let enemies kill him? Yes, Lyanna is ill and weak, but isn't king's life more high priority?

Anyway, what happened after this illogical battle: Big Bad Wolf finds his sister and her child and kill them both as three guards predicted; takes Lyanna's corpse, Arthur's sword, Willam's horse, takes a babe and blow down a tower made of bricks...

Well, not really. He had to order somebody to destroy a tower and bury his friends and guards (probably his host finally arrived or did he do it all by himself with Howland's and Willa the Wetnurse's help?). Even after that, when he went back, how come nobody saw a child with him? Ok, he could claim it was his bastard, but what, his soldiers just thought: "Oh, honorable and faithful lord Eddard just found his bastard near his sister's dead body, totally makes sence"?

(Well, I have a theory, probably Ned took a baby and gave him to Howland Reed: Howland takes Willam's horse (because it was a best horse Ned and his friends had) and runs away with a child to Dorne. Eddard waits for his host, orders them to destroy a tower and bury dead bodies, then he wuses Dawn as a pretext to go to Dorne, and goes to Howland and a child).

[Tynned Lannistark]

I agree there are some weird points to the story.

First the 3 KG at TOJ. Even if Jon is king, he is not king until : a. Aerys is dead, b. Rhaegar is dead, c. he himself is born....

When Rhaegar goes to the trident none of this is true, so there is no king Jon to protect. There's a good chance there would not even be a king Jon, so why are they there?

Seocnd point is why is Eddard there with only 6 friends? seems like an irresponsible thing to do as the leader of the North.

Third is how the hell did Ned and his buds who are never mentioned as master swordsmen manage to kill the best 3 knights in Westeros?

I think the part about the baby could easily be explained as you have explained it. He probably brought the baby from Dorne which is why everyone thinks his mother is from there.

[DanaKz]

Exactly! Even if Jon Targaryen theory is true, kingsguards are doing all wrong... If this is their way to keep their king safe... Well, I'd prefer someone like Hound, he was more sufficient as bodyguard.

[Poppa Chase]

None of it makes sense, because Ned has PTSD. Here's a part that deserves mentioning.

Why didn't he send silent sisters to return the bones to their families? That's exactly their lot in life.

Is it because they were blackened? Were they burned by wildfire?

[Poppa Chase]

Also. I don't think they were doing it to protect the king. I think they were doing it to protect the prince. The one that was promised.

Think about the three KG that were at the tower. Oswell Whent is the one that set up the tourney at harrenhall. He and Rhaegar could have talked shop on prophecies, and gotten him on his team to fulfill this.

Gerold Hightower is of the most mysterious family who's current leader happens to dabble in dark arts.

Arthur Dayne is the sword of the morning and best friend to Rhaegar, likely filled in on what he knows about the prophecies.

[DanaKz]

Well, ok, they were protecting a Prince. Why they did it so poorly? They had to expect they can be not strong enough. It could be Tywin with an army or Oberyn Martell, asking why they didn't protect Elia. They couldn't be sure they will be so lucky for Ned will come with his six friends only, they had to expect they will be not great enough against seven ard-boiled Northmen.

i have another theory: they didn't protect Lyanna's child - or they weren't protecting Lyanna. They were protecting someone else, who did leave ToJ this very moment, when Ned was distracted. For example, it was Aegon Eliason, Varys sent him to ToJ, and Ashara ran away with a child this very moment. Or Lyanna's child was not Jon but Aegon-Faegon - Lyanna gave a birth to him, and someone ran away with this silver-haired babe, while Ned was distracted in a fight.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Whatever happened there, remember what a few said about Lyanna: that she was raped. If anything, Ned wanted discretion and get away as soon as possible.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Whatever happened there, remember what a few said about Lyanna: that she was raped. If anything, Ned wanted discretion and get away as soon as possible.

Or could Ned have suspected (or known) that Lyanna would be pregnant, and that there might be a child ? That would really explain the need of discretion, and that he only trusted friends.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or could Ned have suspected (or known) that Lyanna would be pregnant, and that there might be a child ? That would really explain the need of discretion, and that he only trusted friends.

Could be. Definitely, he realised something sexual was involved. Probably thought he would find her in a cell, naked and in bad state.

[alienarea]

Maybe Ned had a gun?

[George48]

Congratulations!

The cases are two but you win nonetheless

Case one: you found a plothole!

Well done, be proud of yourself.

Case two (most likely):

Ned's account is unreliable/it didn't happen like that.

In that case this is the nail in the coffin for most Tower of Joy theories. Now we can rest easy without discussing them four times a second and considering them cannon.

All hail DanaKZ Theorybane!

No seriously, jokes aside, the whole Tower of Joy episode makes no sense and is either a massive plothole or it didn't happen like that. Since I have a great ammount of respect for George Martin and trust him I think that what really happened at the Tower of Joy will either be revealed somewhere in the next 15 years or will forever reamain a mystery.

[sarah.jenice]

I'm not sure where I remember this from, but I thought Ned went with only his six friends and not his host because they could move faster on his search from Lyanna. I got the sense that it took him a while to find the TOJ.

Since Ned went to Starfall after the TOJ, that would easily explain Jon. To most people, it would look like Jon got Wylla pregnant while he was in Starfall grieving with Ashara Dayne over the loss of their siblings. Weird time to be making babies, but as LF tells Sansa, it isn't polite to ask too much about a man's bastard. We know from Cat that Jon was already set up in Winterfell with his wetnurse when she arrived with Robb so Ned probably sent Howland on with Jon and other attendants to Winterfell. He needed to deliver the news about Lyanna to Robert and obviously didn't want to bring his "bastard."

I definitely do not think this dream is supposed to be taken 100% literally. The dialogue and actions probably didn't go down exactly like we see, but I do think that's the majority of it.

Even though Ned is Lyanna's brother, the kingsguard couldn't be certain what he would do with Rhaegar's son. I can only imagine Lyanna was so very weak and sick from the fever that killed her that she couldn't come down to try to stop the fight.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Here's an idea in shatter-pot territory:

There was a secret council meeting and Aerys had been deposed but no one knew about it. Rhaegar was legally king, thus any child born to him would be an heir to the throne. Rhae Rhae was going to make this known when he got back from kicking Cousin Robert's butt, thus his comment to Jaime about changing things.

[Bran17]

People are so sure of R + L = J that they focus too much on the "OMG!!!! Jon is Rhaegar's son! That would only be relevant if he's legitimate!(assumption #1, gotta find a proof to back that up -> the 3 KG's) He has a claim to the throne!(assumption #2) He's gonna be King!(assumption #3)!" part and forget about the details.

There is a lot in this story that doesn't make sense. :rolleyes:

Why would they fight Ned? That was completely pointless. They could, you know, talk. :eek:

[Lady Blizzardborn]

People are so sure of R + L = J that they focus too much on the "OMG!!!! Jon is Rhaegar's son! That would only be relevant if he's legitimate!(assumption #1, gotta find a proof to back that up -> the 3 KG's) He has a claim to the throne!(assumption #2) He's gonna be King!(assumption #3)!" part and forget about the details.

There is a lot in this story that doesn't make sense. :rolleyes:

Why would they fight Ned? That was completely pointless. They could, you know, talk. :eek:

We don't know for sure that they did fight. We've been warned about fever dreams not necessarily being literally true.

On the other hand, if they didn't fight WTF happened and where did all those men disappear to?

[juanml82]

We don't know for sure that they did fight. We've been warned about fever dreams not necessarily being literally true.

On the other hand, if they didn't fight WTF happened and where did all those men disappear to?

Well, there were at least ten men, one woman and maybe one baby at the ToJ one day and only two men and maybe one baby on the next day, so there was a fight. And that fight makes no sense.

[Ygrain]

MtnLion's analysis of the dialogue:

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned.

The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay to protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

We have Ned's interpretation of the Kingsguard's vow: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Reading these three statements, with Ned's understanding we have: The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow to protect our king's life with our own; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

Textual backing of the various elements of the dream:

We have Ned's memories which correlate with the dream, as well as dreaming on another occasion:

He dreamt an old dream,

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

of three knights in white cloaks,

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

and a tower long fallen,

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward,

and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

“Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again.

“I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise …”

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

He dreamt an old dream

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life

He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years

In other words: he had had the dream before, many times, in years. He directly confirms parts of the dream as faithfully reflecting reality, and after he wakes up, he elaborates on the details of the event:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him.

[juanml82]

So those three are Westeros' True Knights? Nah, it's too romantic for ASOIAF. There is more to ToJ and it's likely that the questions and answers are paraphrasing some failed attempt to negotiate, but Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower weren't robots or unsullied.

[George48]

I still don't get it: how does that analysis prove that we can trust a dream? The dialogue IS just... off, it does not seem real.

Also, I still am curious: why were there only three people guarding Lyanna or whatever was in that tower? No matter how skilled they were they could not have defeat an army and that was the most likely case, that Ned or Robert would should up with either an army or a vanguard (more than 50 horsemen, probably mostly knights). If they were truly sent to defend, "the prince/king" (Jon) and "the queen" (Lyanna) why were they alone? Also why didn't they go to Dorne or Dragonstone? If Rhaegar was dead and Jon was the king then it was their duty to protect his life and for all they knew the first man to come could have been Tywin ready for round two or the Dornishmen under Doran or Oberynwho want to follow Tywin's example.

Also... the whole episode does not seem real... it is shaky. I bet that there is more to it and we should probably wait for WOW before saying that Jon was in the tower with Lyanna.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Having more men there meant that more people would know about what was going on which could lead to greater danger. We don't know how Ned found out where they were but it was apparently not a very well known location. You don't need to prepare for an army coming for you if an army can't find you.

Furthermore, it seems they had to remain at the Tower of Joy because Lyanna was too sick to be moved (which, considering she died not long after the fight, is a reasonable assumption). Dragonstone is not exactly right down the street.

However Ned ended up finding out about the Tower of Joy, he presumably had reason to think that discretion was necessary, which is why he only took six companions (all of whom were Northmen). It also seems that the Kingsguard knew that Ned and his group were coming. If an army had been on its way, they definitely would have known and may have acted differently.