The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion

[RainGhost]

I would like them to have a friendly reunion where they piece together who actually started the war, even if it's kind of irrelevant at this point. But I don't think a marriage could work.

I think a Lannister - Stark/Tully marriage might be a good way to end the war but Martyn would be the better choice because he was only a squire during the war and crucially he's not a kinslayer. Remaining married to Tyrion would just tarnish Sansa ' s reputation.

[Lyannarya Snow]

I wouldn't particularly mind Tyrion and Sansa ending up together, but IMO the perfect ending (and by that unlikely) would be that the Sailor's wife theory is true and Tyrion finally ends up with Tysha. Sansa... idk. But I want her to be happy or at least like "yeah, it could be a lot worse"

[David Selig]

(Before I start this topic, yes, I "ship" Sansa/Tyrion. I know that is far from a popular concept here but please go easy on me.)

As readers, we seem to have come to the consensus that Sansa's arc is one of her coming into her own and being in control of her own destiny. This comes with the ability to choose who to love and marry (or remain married to).

I know many will choose this man to marry as Sandor, being the opposite of the sort of man she used to dream of. But what if it's Tyrion, instead?

Why would anyone who is not extremely masochistic be in love with Tyrion or even tolerate him as an intimate partner? He is a big time jerk, multiple murderer, rapist, has about a million issues with women and is extremely ugly to boot.

[No Song so Sweet]

No way Sansa will marry Tyrion again or return to the marriage. Just no way

[Doublestar]

So saying Stark Lannister history wont effect Sansa Tyrion dynamic is utter bullshit.

And who says that? I didn't.

What I actually said, they viewed each other only as a member of the opposing House. Which means, their personal interaction has yet to be started.

And both Houses are even now pretty much ruined and exhausted. The war between them is done... well, will be done when Sweet Cercei is gone. And there is always peace after war... if there is anybody to make peace between.

[Cat of the Rivers]

I agree with David Selig.

Tyrion has a bunch of issues with women. He wants the hot ones to love him unconditionally even if he treats them like shit, doesn't give a damn about their personal interests or goals in life, mocks unattractive women, judges women on their looks etc. Their marriage was a mess and Sansa wouldn't ever love Tyrion seeing how he's incredibly ugly and has a terrible personality. Politically motivated doesn't make much sense either seeing how staying married to Tyrion a person guilty of patricide and accused of regicide would be political suicide. He's not even the heir or lord of Casterley Rock. And personally I'd rather Sansa marry Daario or Sweetrobin. And that's saying a lot.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

No way Sansa will marry Tyrion again or return to the marriage. Just no way

With Aegon and Daenerys arriving in Westeros any party she comes to is going to try and marry her off to make alliances. I wonder if she might persuage Tyrion to keep up their fake marriage as a paper shield until he gets the rock, and she can find someone she wants to actually marry.

[Doublestar]

I think a Lannister - Stark/Tully marriage might be a good way to end the war

That's how these feuds usually ended during the Middle Ages.

he's not a kinslayer. Remaining married to Tyrion would just tarnish Sansa ' s reputation.

That's why I think Tyrion dies near the end, leaving Sansa with child.

[Doublestar]

OK guys. Maybe I am just too much of a Tyrion fan, We'll see...

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

And who says that? I didn't.

What I actually said, they viewed each other only as a member of the opposing House. Which means, their personal interaction has yet to be started.

And both Houses are even now pretty much ruined and exhausted. The war between them is done... well, will be done when Sweet Cercei is gone. And there is always peace after war... if there is anybody to make peace between.

And I said every character's personal interaction with other character is coloured by how their houses stand in relation to each other, meaning no matter how hard they try TYRION SANSA wont be able to have even a polite political relationship. And peace after war is always poisioned peace, just waiting to erupt at first opportunity.

[Doublestar]

And I said every character's personal interaction with other character is coloured by how their houses stand in relation to each other, meaning no matter how hard they try TYRION SANSA wont be able to have even a polite political relationship. And peace after war is always poisioned peace, just waiting to erupt at first opportunity.

You exaggerate, it seems to me. Just see how War of Roses (admittedly an inspiration for w5k) ended and how long the ensuing peace lasted. But anyway, it's all pretty much speculation for now.

[Annara Snow]

(Before I start this topic, yes, I "ship" Sansa/Tyrion. I know that is far from a popular concept here but please go easy on me.)

As readers, we seem to have come to the consensus that Sansa's arc is one of her coming into her own and being in control of her own destiny. This comes with the ability to choose who to love and marry (or remain married to).

I know many will choose this man to marry as Sandor, being the opposite of the sort of man she used to dream of. But what if it's Tyrion, instead?

Tyrion/Sansa also has elements of the Beauty and the Beast story, and also has the added irony of Sansa learning to love a man from the family that essentially murdered her family.

Would this outcome not play into GRRM's habit of subverting tropes?

(And no, I do not think that Sansa need choose any man at all.)

Discuss!

No, this would not subvert tropes at all, quite the opposite: it would fall firmly some infamous tropes, namely: "woman who is forcibly married learns to love/accept her husband and realize that the forced marriage was exactly what she needed all along", the variation of the "female hostage develops Stockholm Syndrome and falls for her captor who treated her relatively well and did not rape or beat her, but nevertheless did not want to let her go and kept hoping she would allow him to have sex with her in the end"...

it also fits the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope, and of course, the "popular male character gets a female character as a prize and wish fulfillment" trope - Tyrion gets a young, beautiful highborn trophy wife who wants him for some reason, and the claim to the lands that belonged to her family, even though this resolution is completely contrary to the said wife's previously known feelings and lack of attraction to said man and their marriage, and to her personal and political interests.

Guess what those tropes have in common? Here's a hint: they rarely happen with genders reversed.

Anyway, if you want someone who is overly concerned with his partners' looks to ironically end up with an ugly person - why not Tyrion? Sansa has a thing for a man with a burnt face,, Sansa was OK with marrying a cripple, and Sansa stopped being into beautiful douchbags by the age of 12/13. Tyrion, on the other hand is a grown man who's really shallow in that regard, only wants beautiful women, is ready to disregard and ignore a woman's terrible personality if she is pretty and great in bed (Shae) when he's less self-aware, and admits to himself that he only wants to fuck the good-looking women around him but isn't interested in their personality (ADWD), expresses disgust at the idea of marrying an unattractive woman (Lollys), and, even though he yearns to be loved by a woman, gets incredibly irritated with the very idea of a relationship between himself and a physically unattractive woman who is a dwarf, like himself, even though she clearly has genuine romantic interest in him (Penny) to the point of protesting loudly whenever someone mistakes her for his wife or mistress or suggests she could become his wife or mistress..

[Roose on the Loose]

I think Tyrion and Sansa are both over marriage. So they'll both use their sham of a marriage as an excuse. Or to get out of sex as the situation calls for.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

No, this would not subvert tropes at all, quite the opposite: it would fall firmly some infamous tropes, namely: "woman who is forcibly married learns to love/accept her husband and realize that the forced marriage was exactly what she needed all along", the variation of the "female hostage develops Stockholm Syndrome and falls for her captor who treated her relatively well and did not rape or beat her, but nevertheless did not want to let her go and kept hoping she would allow him to have sex with her in the end"...

it also fits the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope, and of course, the "popular male character gets a female character as a prize and wish fulfillment" trope - Tyrion gets a young, beautiful highborn trophy wife who wants him for some reason, and the claim to the lands that belonged to her family, even though this resolution is completely contrary to the said wife's previously known feelings and lack of attraction to said man and their marriage, and to her personal and political interests.

Guess what those tropes have in common? Here's a hint: they rarely happen with genders reversed.

Anyway, if you want someone who is overly concerned with his partners' looks to ironically end up with an ugly person - why not Tyrion? Sansa has a thing for a man with a burnt face,, Sansa was OK with marrying a cripple, and Sansa stopped being into beautiful douchbags by the age of 12/13. Tyrion, on the other hand is a grown man who's really shallow in that regard, only wants beautiful women, is ready to disregard and ignore a woman's terrible personality if she is pretty and great in bed (Shae) when he's less self-aware, and admits to himself that he only wants to fuck the good-looking women around him but isn't interested in their personality (ADWD), expresses disgust at the idea of marrying an unattractive woman (Lollys), and, even though he yearns to be loved by a woman, gets incredibly irritated with the very idea of a relationship between himself and a physically unattractive woman who is a dwarf, like himself, even though she clearly has genuine romantic interest in him (Penny) to the point of protesting loudly whenever someone mistakes her for his wife or mistress or suggests she could become his wife or mistress..

But he didnt treat her cruelly or stopped just short of raping her {what self control} so obviously she should be greatful to him and have sex with him, so that poor Tyrion doesnt feel neglected. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Tynned Lannistark]

No, this would not subvert tropes at all, quite the opposite: it would fall firmly some infamous tropes, namely: "woman who is forcibly married learns to love/accept her husband and realize that the forced marriage was exactly what she needed all along", the variation of the "female hostage develops Stockholm Syndrome and falls for her captor who treated her relatively well and did not rape or beat her, but nevertheless did not want to let her go and kept hoping she would allow him to have sex with her in the end"...

it also fits the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope, and of course, the "popular male character gets a female character as a prize and wish fulfillment" trope - Tyrion gets a young, beautiful highborn trophy wife who wants him for some reason, and the claim to the lands that belonged to her family, even though this resolution is completely contrary to the said wife's previously known feelings and lack of attraction to said man and their marriage, and to her personal and political interests.

Guess what those tropes have in common? Here's a hint: they rarely happen with genders reversed.

Anyway, if you want someone who is overly concerned with his partners' looks to ironically end up with an ugly person - why not Tyrion? Sansa has a thing for a man with a burnt face,, Sansa was OK with marrying a cripple, and Sansa stopped being into beautiful douchbags by the age of 12/13. Tyrion, on the other hand is a grown man who's really shallow in that regard, only wants beautiful women, is ready to disregard and ignore a woman's terrible personality if she is pretty and great in bed (Shae) when he's less self-aware, and admits to himself that he only wants to fuck the good-looking women around him but isn't interested in their personality (ADWD), expresses disgust at the idea of marrying an unattractive woman (Lollys), and, even though he yearns to be loved by a woman, gets incredibly irritated with the very idea of a relationship between himself and a physically unattractive woman who is a dwarf, like himself, even though she clearly has genuine romantic interest in him (Penny) to the point of protesting loudly whenever someone mistakes her for his wife or mistress or suggests she could become his wife or mistress..

I think you are too harsh on Tyrion and too easy on Sansa.

Sansa was never only into handsom men, she was into knightly men. Her head is full of dreams about knights and chivalry. In her mind she associated beauty with chivalry but her relationship with Sandor shows she can overlook that if needed. Willas might be a cripple, but he got crippled during a fight, and he is not a dwarf. Sandor may be burnt but he is a strong fighter as well.

Tyrion stand against anything she likes about in a man. She is mostly disgusted of him because of what he looks like not because he is a Lannister, although that surely doesn't help.

Tyrion is a very bitter man. He wants to be loved. He believes no one will love him so why not at least go for the pretty women.

Penny annoys him because of her nativity not because of what she looks like. If she was an incredibly witty girl, there is a good chance he would look at her very differently. Sansa is very far from a being a dream wife for Tyrion. Also she looks at him just a shallowly as the other women - she wants him mainly because he is a dwarf and she thinks that will fit. She doesn't even try to see who he really is and doesn't care how bad he treats her and sort of misses how much they don't fit.

Considering what he really wants is someone to love him and how Sansa is utterly disgusted by him she is probably as bad a mate for him as he is for her. I think he would prefer almost any other woman.

Eventually this paring is equally bad for both, but not as terrible as possible other fates. Which is why it has a chance of happening.

Its not going to be a "they lived happily ever after" sort of ending but they may learn to accept their fates knowing it is important for their families and for the peace and that it could have been much worse for them.

[King Tyrion I]

OK guys. Maybe I am just too much of a Tyrion fan, We'll see...

"You've got a friend in me."

In other words: I'm also shipping Sanrion (Sansa and Tyrion).

Look at this:

"I am malformed, scarred, and small, but... abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers. I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I've proven I'm no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you."

It's their wedding night and it's Tyrion's POV. And I do hope that they reunite and become happy in a way. Circumstances in Westeros are always difficult and hardships.

[Chebyshov]

No, this would not subvert tropes at all, quite the opposite: it would fall firmly some infamous tropes, namely: "woman who is forcibly married learns to love/accept her husband and realize that the forced marriage was exactly what she needed all along", the variation of the "female hostage develops Stockholm Syndrome and falls for her captor who treated her relatively well and did not rape or beat her, but nevertheless did not want to let her go and kept hoping she would allow him to have sex with her in the end"...

it also fits the "Ugly Guy/Hot Wife" trope, and of course, the "popular male character gets a female character as a prize and wish fulfillment" trope - Tyrion gets a young, beautiful highborn trophy wife who wants him for some reason, and the claim to the lands that belonged to her family, even though this resolution is completely contrary to the said wife's previously known feelings and lack of attraction to said man and their marriage, and to her personal and political interests.

Guess what those tropes have in common? Here's a hint: they rarely happen with genders reversed.

Anyway, if you want someone who is overly concerned with his partners' looks to ironically end up with an ugly person - why not Tyrion? Sansa has a thing for a man with a burnt face,, Sansa was OK with marrying a cripple, and Sansa stopped being into beautiful douchbags by the age of 12/13. Tyrion, on the other hand is a grown man who's really shallow in that regard, only wants beautiful women, is ready to disregard and ignore a woman's terrible personality if she is pretty and great in bed (Shae) when he's less self-aware, and admits to himself that he only wants to fuck the good-looking women around him but isn't interested in their personality (ADWD), expresses disgust at the idea of marrying an unattractive woman (Lollys), and, even though he yearns to be loved by a woman, gets incredibly irritated with the very idea of a relationship between himself and a physically unattractive woman who is a dwarf, like himself, even though she clearly has genuine romantic interest in him (Penny) to the point of protesting loudly whenever someone mistakes her for his wife or mistress or suggests she could become his wife or mistress..

:agree: All of this, which really gets at the crux of the OP.

I love when these threads come up, because hey, let's ignore everything problematic about Tyrion and reward him with a pretty girl. Tyrion's a messed-up guy with a truly troubling attitude towards women. Let's skip over the part where Tyrion signs himself to marry a prisoner child-bride, and then bemoans her not spreading her legs for him willingly, and get right to the part where Tyrion is a horrible fucking match for her based on personality alone. His approach to their relationship is a voyeuristic one, and on top of that, he denies her emotions, demeans her nature, and discounts her intellect. Tyrion makes no attempt to actually get to know Sansa, and then becomes frustrated at his inability to read her, as if she owes him her confidence. He approaches the entire marriage from an entitled position, and she approaches it from the angle of survival. As for Sansa, she knows exactly what Tyrion is right away (with his devouring male-gaze, plus her "I feel like he's a hungry child and I have no food to give him" [paraphrased]) and finds no fulfillment from him whatsoever. He's a liar when it comes to his promises about her family, and he's incredibly self-absorbed.

This is a long winded way of saying Tyrion feels owed the love of women, and Sansa won't love unless it's earned. And for Tyrion, it is far from earned. So it wouldn't be the ultimate irony, so much of the ultimate "your life STILL sucks" moment for her.

[Annara Snow]

I think you are too harsh on Tyrion and too easy on Sansa.

Sansa was never only into handsom men, she was into knightly men. Her head is full of dreams about knights and chivalry. In her mind she associated beauty with chivalry but her relationship with Sandor shows she can overlook that if needed. Willas might be a cripple, but he got crippled during a fight, and he is not a dwarf. Sandor may be burnt but he is a strong fighter as well.

Tyrion stand against anything she likes about in a man. She is mostly disgusted of him because of what he looks like not because he is a Lannister, although that surely doesn't help.

That's directly contradictory to the text. Sansa is not disgusted by Tyrion as a person, she thinks he is kinder than the other Lannisters and prays for him during the BW battle, but she, naturally, can't trust him because he is another Lannister. She thinks "I don't want any Lannister" when Tyrion offers Lancel (as a Lannister who's good looking and closer to Sansa's age) as an alternative, and between those two alternatives, chooses to marry Tyrion over Lancel because she remembers him being kind to her (which Lancel was not). I'm still waiting for the proponents of "Sansa mostly doesn't want to marry Tyrion because he's a dwarf!" to explain that one. (A case of people being affected by the show to the point of forgetting what actually happens in the books?) He thinks to herself bitterly: "They made me a Lannister".

Tyrion being ugly, noseless, a dwarf, and generally extremely sexually unattractive to Sansa, gets at the forefront of her mind only when she believes she is just about to be forced to have sex with him and is immediately horrified, realizing she can't feel any sexual desire for him even when she tries to find something attractive about him to make the prospect of being expected to eventually have sex with him less unpleasant and awful. I can't believe that I actually have to defend the right of a person to not want sex with someone they find highly sexually unattractive. Much less, the right of a 12-year old unwilling bride to not want to be forced to lose her virginity and be made to have regular sex for the rest of her life with someone she finds highly sexually unattractive.

And yes, Sandor does have some traits that appeal to Sansa sexually and romantically, while Tyrion does not. That's why people get attracted to some people and not to some other. There has to be something you find appealing about someone, even though they're not perfection. Duh. I'm at a loss how that's supposed to be either an indictment of Sansa (look how awful and shallow she is for... not being sexually attracted to someone who has nothing that would attract her??) or how that can be used as an argument in favor of Tyrion/Sansa, as opposed to against it, which is what actually makes sense. I'm baffled at the idea that there is some special rites of passage or moral requirement that people must "learn" to be attracted to people who are the complete opposite of anything they can find romantically/sexually attractive. Correction: that women must learn that, Sansa, apparently, is the one character that people think must fulfill this requirement. I wonder how many people here have made of a habit of making themselves have sex with people they find completely unattractive, to show how "enlightened" they are? Nobody expects Tyrion to decide to marry Lollys, because she is the exact opposite of everything he finds attractive in a woman.

Tyrion is a very bitter man. He wants to be loved. He believes no one will love him so why not at least go for the pretty women.

Penny annoys him because of her nativity not because of what she looks like. If she was an incredibly witty girl, there is a good chance he would look at her very differently. Sansa is very far from a being a dream wife for Tyrion. Also she looks at him just a shallowly as the other women - she wants him mainly because he is a dwarf and she thinks that will fit. She doesn't even try to see who he really is and doesn't care how bad he treats her and sort of misses how much they don't fit.

And yet he was very attracted to Sansa and thought to himself that he wanted her, even though she wasn't witty or fun, he saw her as a naive child (he saw her as even more naive than she was at the time even, even wondering at one point if she would still like to marry Joffrey after everything!!!) and she's not his dream girl in terms of personality.

Considering what he really wants is someone to love him and how Sansa is utterly disgusted by him she is probably as bad a mate for him as he is for her. I think he would prefer almost any other woman.

Yes, I agree, Tyrion and Sansa are terribly matched, neither of them would be able to provide what the other wants (mostly, to be loved for themselves), and this relationship would never had a chance in hell of happening for real. Tyrion was never even interested in Sansa that way before he was told he had to marry her; that he even developed a desire and fantasy about her is a sign of how many issues with neediness, insecurity, entitlement he has, as well as his inability to break free of the society's constraints and his father's influence even when he thinks of himself as an outcast.

Eventually this paring is equally bad for both, but not as terrible as possible other fates. Which is why it has a chance of happening.

Its not going to be a "they lived happily ever after" sort of ending but they may learn to accept their fates knowing it is important for their families and for the peace and that it could have been much worse for them.

What? You've just contradicted yourself completely. What other fates? Nobody is going to be forcing Tyrion to marry someone he doesn't want. And he seems poised to regain some power soon. Sansa seems poised to finally gain some power to control her fate. What's that "other fate" that could be worse? She's not going to be married to Ramsay, and Joffrey is dead. She could be forced by LF to marry Harry the Heir (though I don't think she will) ; that's not worse than being forced to marry Tyrion Lannister.

Why the hell would they "learn to accept their fates" of the marriage? There's no one to enforce that marriage now. It can be annulled. Or just ignored. Sansa has been ignoring it from the beginning and didn't "learn to accept it" as her fate even when she was still captive in KL, and since she ran away, she's felt relieved she has left it behind. "It can be worse" is 1) probably not true, 2) a bullshit argument in the first place, designed to make people settle for bad things from fear of some hypothetical horrible things. The argument that it's important for peace is an even worse one - if there's ever going to be peace between the Starks and the Lannisters, it sure isn't going to be based on upholding a marriage that was forced on Sansa while she was a hostage, as an act of war/power grab by the Lannisters trying to lay claim on the Stark lands. And the idea that this marriage could ever be good for the Starks is a terrible one. Not that I believe that Sansa should or would accept the bullshit idea of "sacrificing herself" for her family by putting herself through an unhappy marriage where she would have to "lie back and think of Winterfell"; but in this case, it makes no sense in the first place. The only thing that's good for Sansa politically and for the Starks is an annulment of the marriage. The annulment of the marriage, with the Lannisters not laying any claims to the North, would also be the prerequisite for any hypothetical peace.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

"You've got a friend in me."

In other words: I'm also shipping Sanrion (Sansa and Tyrion).

Look at this:

"I am malformed, scarred, and small, but... abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers. I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I've proven I'm no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you."

It's their wedding night and it's Tyrion's POV. And I do hope that they reunite and become happy in a way. Circumstances in Westeros are always difficult and hardships.

Actually the portion you qouted is in Sansa pov chapter.

[King Tyrion I]

Actually the portion you qouted is in Sansa pov chapter.

My bad. But I like that quote. Because it illustrates Tyrion's feelings towards her.