Mace Cooterian Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 After this brief "Rosetta Stone" demonstration we now return to our scheduled discussion on the "Kings of Winter". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Indeed, but before we put the warg/skinchanger back to bed for a little time, I'd just like to suggest an interpretation that reconciles the opposing views. As I recall GRRM has linked wargs with wolves. As they are pack animals rather than individuals such as bears and cats then skinchanging a wolf gets you into the pack as well as the dog. Thus when Varamyr speaks of his pack he means the pack he belongs to rather than the pack he commands. Turning then to the Starks we see the same thing, although each has a bond to their own direwolf they are part of the pack. There is more to it in their case but we also need to not lose sight of the fact that they are not warging wolves [as Varamyr did] but direwolves, whom Leaf characterises as one of the old races. Therefore while their relationships appear to be different from other wargs that's due to the partner rather than a difference between skinchanging and warging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Heresy 137 was the one that got everything exactly right. Only a single copy written on vellum existed. Rumoured to have been bound into the book 'Lost and Recovered Prophecies', possibly held at one time in the vaults of the citadel, believed to have been lost forever. Some factions claim that the maesters themselves destroyed the book, some others think that Roose Bolton consigned it to the fire. Actually it was a novice called Vinculus who got caught short one night and grabbed the first thing he saw to wipe his arse afterwards. As it happens all that was lost was the OP which is pretty much the same from heresy to heresy but he was so stricken with terror at what he'd done that he tore up the rest and ate it in an attempt to destroy the evidence. Unfortunately all the words then appeared on his skin. Like most novices he rarely washed so this curious mark of his guilt went undiscovered for some time. Eventually however the secret came out and his fellow novices were set to copying it out but no-one could agree as to the running order of the posts and some of the text ran into places no-one cared to go so that while a number of transcripts are understood to exist, most are regarded as incomplete or apocryphal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I like the one about Vinculus in the nineteenth century better..;) "No tissue, fairy ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Just a pun: would Daenerys qualify as Queen of Summer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Actually it was a novice called Vinculus who got caught short one night and grabbed the first thing he saw to wipe his arse afterwards. As it happens all that was lost was the OP which is pretty much the same from heresy to heresy but he was so stricken with terror at what he'd done that he tore up the rest and ate it in an attempt to destroy the evidence. Unfortunately all the words then appeared on his skin. Like most novices he rarely washed so this curious mark of his guilt went undiscovered for some time. Eventually however the secret came out and his fellow novices were set to copying it out but no-one could agree as to the running order of the posts and some of the text ran into places no-one cared to go so that while a number of transcripts are understood to exist, most are regarded as incomplete or apocryphal. Oh, bravo. Very well done, indeed. (And speaking of those who are bound, tied, or chained, even... ) :commie: You know, I still have not had a chance to open Clarke's novel to reread... but after skimming the online recap on Vinculus, I'm reminded that the Prophecy of John Uskglass is one of those pieces of her work that hews so remarkably to the themes Martin himself traces in his Northern chapters (and line 8, in particular, really made me double-take): Prophecy of John Uskglass 1 I reached out my hand; England's rivers turned and flowed the other way;2 I reached out my hand; my enemies's blood stopt in their veins;3 I reached out my hand; thought and memory flew out of my enemies' heads like a flock of starlings;4 My enemies crumpled like empty sacks.5 I came to them out of mists and rain;6 I came to them in dreams at midnight;7 I came to them in a flock of ravens that filled the northern sky at dawn;8 When they thought themselves safe I came to them in a cry that broke the silence of a winter wood.9 The rain made a door for me and I went through it;10 The stones made a throne for me and I sat upon it;11 Three kingdoms were given to me to be mine forever;12 England was given to me to be mine forever.13 The nameless slave wore a silver crown;14 The nameless slave was a king in a strange country.15 The weapons that my enemies raised against me are venerated in Hell as holy relics;16 Plans that my enemies raised against me are preserved as holy texts;17 Blood that I shed upon ancient battlefields is scraped from the stained earth by Hell's sacristans and placed in a vessel of silver and ivory.18 I gave magic to England, a valuable inheritance19 But Englishmen have despised my gift20 Magic shall be written upon the sky by the rain but they shall not be able to read it;21 Magic shall be written on the faces of the stony hills but their minds shall not be able to contain it;22 In winter the barren trees shall be a black writing but they shall not understand it.23 Two magicians shall appear in England.24 The first shall fear me; the second shall long to behold me;25 The first shall be governed by thieves and murderers; the second shall conspire at his own destruction;26 The first shall bury his heart in a dark wood beneath the snow, yet still feel its ache;27 The second shall see his dearest possession in his enemy’s hand.28 The first shall pass his life alone; he shall be his own gaoler;29 The second shall tread lonely roads, the storm above his head, seeking a dark tower upon a high hillside.30 I sit upon a black throne in the shadows but they shall not see me.31 The rain shall make a door for me and I shall pass through it;32 The stones shall make a throne for me and I shall sit upon it.33 The nameless slave shall wear a silver crown,34 The nameless slave shall be a king in a strange country. I really wish I had a clearer idea of what the connection might be between their work... and as I still haven't read anything connecting the two authors personally, I can only suppose that I've missed some fairly significant collection of Celtic or folk mythology... <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You're missing a fun time... Clarke cites Katharine Briggs' work often ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Mary_Briggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! Therfore, Varamyr is a warg. Just to clarify, GRRM did call Varamyr a warg -in Bran's chapter at The Cave. When Summer and One Eye meet, the word used is Warg.Now, a similar meeting of two skinchangers... When Jon meets Borroq at the Wall, he uses the word skinchanger. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You're missing a fun time... Clarke cites Katharine Briggs' work often ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Mary_Briggs Ah. Is that it? I admit, while I know of Katharine Briggs, I have not yet put my hands on any of her books. Where's the best place to start? The Vanishing People? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 "No tissue, fairy ?" Ah, no... tried that. The thistledown hair did seem like a good idea at first, but oh dear me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Indeed, but before we put the warg/skinchanger back to bed for a little time, I'd just like to suggest an interpretation that reconciles the opposing views. As I recall GRRM has linked wargs with wolves. As they are pack animals rather than individuals such as bears and cats then skinchanging a wolf gets you into the pack as well as the dog. Thus when Varamyr speaks of his pack he means the pack he belongs to rather than the pack he commands. Turning then to the Starks we see the same thing, although each has a bond to their own direwolf they are part of the pack. There is more to it in their case but we also need to not lose sight of the fact that they are not warging wolves [as Varamyr did] but direwolves, whom Leaf characterises as one of the old races. Therefore while their relationships appear to be different from other wargs that's due to the partner rather than a difference between skinchanging and warging. Agreed!Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!Therfore, Varamyr is a warg.Just to clarify, GRRM did call Varamyr a warg -in Bran's chapter at The Cave. When Summer and One Eye meet, the word used is Warg.Now, a similar meeting of two skinchangers... When Jon meets Borroq at the Wall, he uses the word skinchanger.That's all.When? GRRM did not call V6 a Warg.....A POV character (Bran) called him a Warg.Are we forgetting what POV's are and how they are used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Wolfmaid, that first SSM was so long, I couldn't quickly find the part related to wargs, but the second SSM that linked to the Citadel simply said that a warg is someone that can communicate with wolves. The word "can" doesn't mean restricted. I for one believe Varamyr is a warg. Edited to add: I went back and looked at the first SSM Wolfmaid provided and found the definition using the word "bound", but if the term "bound" is exclusive and restrictive, then Bran isn't a warg either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerWalterPuffsAlot Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I would love to hear a scenario where the differences between wargs and skinchangers makes a difference in the plot of the books. If you have one GREAT lets hear it. if not then let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I would love to hear a scenario where the differences between wargs and skinchangers makes a difference in the plot of the books. If you have one GREAT lets hear it. if not then let it go. I'll second this! It will likely have absolutely no effect to the rest of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion XX Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I think this debate keeps going because people are out of things to talk about. We need TWOW already. Please Mr. Martin, restore peace to Heresy. We will forever be your loyal bannerman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Ah. Is that it? I admit, while I know of Katharine Briggs, I have not yet put my hands on any of her books. Where's the best place to start? The Vanishing People? I think starting anywhere would be fine :) I've been meaning to see if any of Briggs' work is available for my Kindle.. I read some of her collections of folk tales (can't recall titles) in my teenage nose-in-book years..and that was (ahem..) multiple decades ago. When I tried to re-acquaint myself, shortly after JS&MN was released , she was long out of print, and difficult to find. Maybe she's enjoying a resurgance... But for me, one of the things that ties SC and GRRM ( even more than history ,folk tale and mythology) is the amazing mind for detail.. and the puzzles.. For those who like to hunt for clues (nudge,nudge) both authors provide a feast. wolfmaid ... thanks for trying to respond (upthread), but that wasn't what I meant at all.. I had looked at the end of the last thread and dutifully followed the links given at the beginning of this one. Somewhere along the way, there were poster(s?)..not book characters .. referring to the Warg King's or Greywolf's , or both of their .."(dire)wolves" .. and speculating that the Stark abilities came from one or both of them. The excerpt makes no mention of direwolves, so I think those are premature assumptions... and the lack of explicit mention may be fully intentional on GRRM's part. Generally... this may not be well recieved here, but I'm one who thinks that many people may be too willing to see blood sacrifice as necessary , or desirable from the viewpoint of the old gods... and now with this excerpt, I wonder if the vision of the woman apparently making sacrifice in front of the young WF heart tree, is from a time when the Boltons held or burned WF..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 I really wish I had a clearer idea of what the connection might be between their work... and as I still haven't read anything connecting the two authors personally, I can only suppose that I've missed some fairly significant collection of Celtic or folk mythology... <_< As I mentioned before they appear to have a mutual acquaintance in Neil Gaiman, but beyond that I really can't find anything and even that seems unlikely to explain it. On the whole I think Bemused probably has the right of it. As to the "Prophecy of John Uskglass" I'd say that the first 10 fit with our story and I'm particularly struck by the business of being beyond the rain because if you substitute snow for rain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'll second this! It will likely have absolutely no effect to the rest of the story. :agree: ...and think that this is certainly one of these things which is being over-analysed. On the other hand, as I pointed out earlier, the World Book chapter presents us with a new picture of what was really happening in the North which completely overturns everything we were once told - and justifies so much of our discussions here on heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Maybe we can redirect our conversation back to the Kings of Winter? Did we thoroughly examine Roose's current situation at Winterfell? Butterbumps has posted before that he seems he's in his element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Maybe we can redirect our conversation back to the Kings of Winter? Did we thoroughly examine Roose's current situation at Winterfell? Butterbumps has posted before that he seems he's in his element. I think that important though he is it might be unwise to view Roose in isolation. As I pointed out earlier the picture we're painted is one of bloody anarchy up North until order is imposed by the Starks. Now there is no longer a Stark in Winterfell the Old Powers are wakening again and the Boltons are brake loose along with everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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