Led Habell Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 After this idea came to me, I googled it to make sure it wasn't already known and that I wasn't wasting anyone's time, but only one result came on, on reddit, so I figured it isn't already popular.Long story short, Lord Tywin wanted his son out of the kings guard and back as heir to Casterly Rock. So, while arranging for the red wedding with Lord Bolton, he has Lord Bolton arrange for Jamie to be crippled, so he won't be able to resume his vocation in the kings guard, forcing him to return as Casterly Rock's heir. This is supported by Lord Bolton not punishing Vargo Hoat for mutilating Ser Jaime. If the kingslayer, the lion of Casterly Rock, the youngest person ever inducted into the kings guard, the renown Ser Jamie Lannister, was your prisoner, and you took away his sword hand, what defines him, I think you'd atleast get a smack with a ruler or something. Add to that the timing of it, a short while during when the red wedding could've been planned, and how Lord Bolton continues the betrayal of his liege lord by Lady Catelyn by allowing their most important prisoner to resume his trip to Kingslanding as "restitution"?Lord Tywin can be said to have been almost desperate to have Ser Jamie back as his heir instead of Tyrion, and this is a measure that him taking would be credible. Some spiteful savage with a lisp mistreats a highborn, born with a golden spoon knight when he's his prisoner during a war? Sounds like something that might happen. How unfortunate. Guess that knight will just have to take his whoring, dwarf brother's place as heir for the one of the biggest families seat. How lucky for the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 ? Bolton didn't punish Vargo Hoat because he wasn't in charge of the Brave Companions. They were mercenaries that had switched sides, but he didn't have total control over them. Tywin didn't have it either and that's why they betrayed him in the first place. Starting a fight with them over the maiming makes no sense, only costs soldiers and time. Best let Tywin take care of it, which he of course did. You remember what happened to Vargo Hoat? Yeah, doesn't look like Tywin approved at all, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Habell Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Vargo was just a pawn. Lord Bolton let him play "lord of the castle" and took his men fully knowing Lord Tywin would take Harrenhall back. Maybe that was the agreement all along. Also, letting such an important prisoner go, when knowing your liege lord, sorry, your KING is hunting for him? It sounds as if an agreement was already made. After he lets him go, he rides for the red wedding. If no such conspiracy was on, and such a valuable "package", if you will, was harmed like that, you wouldn't just frown and ride to a wedding. Lord Tywin sees that they switched sides, hatches a plan with Lord Bolton which includes the red wedding, and hey, while I'm at it, why not get my golden son as my heir again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Habell Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 "Cut off that highborn lad's arm, and Harrenhall's yours" or something? The Brave Companions already have that sort of reputation, so no one gets suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I'm inclined to think there was no "conspiracy." Vargo was just a sick freak who enjoyed cutting off people's hands. I don't think Tywin would've risked his golden son's life just to manipulate him in returning to Casterly Rock. If he did though, getting rid of the evidence would seem to be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Habell Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 After taking the kings guard vows, he was already dead to Lord Tywin. He wasn't necessarily risking his life either; how convenient is it that there's a maester, or a former maester rather, Qyburn, present at Harrenhall. The deed is done, the arm cut off, Vargo "gets" Harrenhall, and all the blame. There's no evidence to clear; whatever he says is gonna sound like it's oozing with desperation, and the mountain is on his way anyways to finish the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Vargo was just a pawn. Lord Bolton let him play "lord of the castle" and took his men fully knowing Lord Tywin would take Harrenhall back. Maybe that was the agreement all along. Also, letting such an important prisoner go, when knowing your liege lord, sorry, your KING is hunting for him? It sounds as if an agreement was already made. After he lets him go, he rides for the red wedding. Yes, it certainly was. An agreement including the Red Wedding, the Young Wolf murdered, Bolton and Frey switching sides. That's an established fact. The Goat mutilating the Kingslayer - no. Tywin would've never allowed that. Making Tywin's son, another of Tywin's sons to be precise, a crippled object of ridicule? Even if quiet and behind his back? The proud lion would have never gone for it. And it neither forced, nor allowed Jaime to take of his white cloak: not forced, because he was free to say no, and did just that; and not allowed, because there's no such thing as a medical discharge from the Kingsguard. The KG knights, just like crows, serve for life. Or, if you want to call Ser Barristan's precedent, they serve until the king (regent) dismisses them for whatever reason he fancies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 After taking the kings guard vows, he was already dead to Lord Tywin. He wasn't necessarily risking his life either; how convenient is it that there's a maester, or a former maester rather, Qyburn, present at Harrenhall. The deed is done, the arm cut off, Vargo "gets" Harrenhall, and all the blame. There's no evidence to clear; whatever he says is gonna sound like it's oozing with desperation, and the mountain is on his way anyways to finish the job. It sounds totally crackpot, and it probably is crackpot, but I wondered about this, too. In one fell swoop, Tywin gets his heir back. It probably didn't go down this way, but it would be so Tywin if it did. Another crackpot theory: I always imagined Tywin having something to do with Joffrey's death. The kid is a Lannister, yes, but he's also barking mad, uncontrollable, and Tywin would not want to see the realm destroyed by another crazy king, this one his own grandson. So he colludes in killing the crazy grandson, puts the sane, sweet kid on the throne, sends the imp to NW, and life's good. Again, the kind of thing I can see Tywin doing, but he probably didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jaime Lannister Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Tywin was possibly more involved in a lot of things than we realize, but I don't think maiming Jaime was one of them. Jaime was the top warrior/general at the time that Tywin had. If he was in any type of plan with the Brave companions, they would have sent him back. Too many things could happen to Jaime out of his control.But, Jaime's maiming does stink of sub-plot...The Dornish Master Plan, put together by this guy on uTube may have some seeds of truth. The theory states that it is possible that Oberyn created the Brave Companions when he was in the free cities. Oberyn poised Tywin, and figured he would be put on trial for it. With Jaime unable to defend Tywin without a sword hand, Oberyn (slash Doran) would get revenge on Tywin and the Mountain. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBfdd_xNVo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 But hoat was tortured to death by Clegane - wasn't that at Least in part punishment for Jaimes maiming?Not that this would disprove some Tywin conspirAcy, just saying that Tywin did see that he was punished eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I doubt a father would conspire to have his son's hand chopped off in a world without antibiotics. Were it not for Qyburn there's a good chance that Jaime would be dead from that wound. At the very least he would have lost his whole arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 This takes the art of crackpottery to the next level. I am sure that Tywin would risk the heir he wanted to the band that not only cut his favored son's hand off, but also tortured him as well. The searing of the flesh to heal it poorly while allowing the life threatening injury to fester is not something Tywin would have been okay with. And make no mistake, they do this degradation not because they are ignorant to the pain it causes Jaime. They are doing it because they get a kick out of it, and forcing him to drink horse piss is only the least of the things they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tyrion I Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 There's one thing Tywin's interested in: his family. His legacy. Of course, he wants Jaime to be his heir. But I just don't buy this theory of yours.In other words: this theory is nothing more than crackpot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdw4950 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 it makes sense on the surface but i doubt tywin had anything to do with it. people died from infection all the time from waaay less series wounds. if it wasnt for qyburn theres a good chance jaime doesnt make it back to kings landing alive. i wouldnt doubt that tywin might have been happy with the outcome once he leanred jaime was going to be fine but he wouldnt risk jaimes life for that means to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Habell Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Yes, it certainly was. An agreement including the Red Wedding, the Young Wolf murdered, Bolton and Frey switching sides. That's an established fact. The Goat mutilating the Kingslayer - no. Tywin would've never allowed that. Making Tywin's son, another of Tywin's sons to be precise, a crippled object of ridicule? Even if quiet and behind his back? The proud lion would have never gone for it. And it neither forced, nor allowed Jaime to take of his white cloak: not forced, because he was free to say no, and did just that; and not allowed, because there's no such thing as a medical discharge from the Kingsguard. The KG knights, just like crows, serve for life. Or, if you want to call Ser Barristan's precedent, they serve until the king (regent) dismisses them for whatever reason he fancies.Lord Tywin's pride would've made him desperate enough to try anything to keep Tyrion, the brothel frequenting drunken dwarf that has only brought shame to his house, from inheriting Casterly Rock. And as I said before, Jaime was already dead to Tywin since he swore his KG vows. And not necessarily force him, but I think Lord Tywin thought Ser Jaime would be more easily persuaded without his sword hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Habell Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 It sounds totally crackpot, and it probably is crackpot, but I wondered about this, too. In one fell swoop, Tywin gets his heir back. It probably didn't go down this way, but it would be so Tywin if it did. Another crackpot theory: I always imagined Tywin having something to do with Joffrey's death. The kid is a Lannister, yes, but he's also barking mad, uncontrollable, and Tywin would not want to see the realm destroyed by another crazy king, this one his own grandson. So he colludes in killing the crazy grandson, puts the sane, sweet kid on the throne, sends the imp to NW, and life's good. Again, the kind of thing I can see Tywin doing, but he probably didn't.That sounds credible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 There's one thing Tywin's interested in: his family. His legacy. Of course, he wants Jaime to be his heir. But I just don't buy this theory of yours.In other words: this theory is nothing more than crackpot.How civil of you to say 'this theory is nothing more than crackpot' with the only evidence being 'I just don't buy this theory of yours.'I saw someone who moved from here to /r/asoiaf because the people here were rude to new users and new theories(and also prone to flame wars, which Reddit seems to be designed to avoid). I don't agree with this theory, but play nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainGhost Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 No. Tywin considered Jaime his heir already (wilfully), he didn't need him to have his hand cut off. It's dangerous and it weakens Jaime considerably when he used to be a great fighter. Tywin used the lost hand to try to convince Jaime that he can't be a KG but he would have done that anyway. Tywin couldn't understand why Jaime would prefer to be a KG rather than Lord of Casterly Rock. I think he was planning on using the precedent of Barristan Selmy to release Jaime from his vows anyway, hand or no hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Chase Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Roose was defecting. Vargo had already defected to Robb's side so Tywin would not have him back. So his options were to high tail it back to Essos, continue working for Roose, or try to drive a wedge between him and Tywin. He chose the last option when he found the Kingslayer. Removing his hand, he thought there would be no way Tywin would forgive Roose. But Jaime made a deal so it worked out to the opposite effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think he was planning on using the precedent of Barristan Selmy to release Jaime from his vows anyway, hand or no hand. This seems more likely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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