Red Wedding 2.0: Riverrun Edition

[Fire Eater]

I think most of us know the RW 2.0 coming. I'm going to briefly go through what I think will happen.

Location: Riverrun

His [Emmon Frey] hand came away red and slimy from he sourleaf. "To be sure. Riverrun is mine, and no man shall ever take it from me."

Compare that to the prophecy about the demise of the Witch-King Angmar: Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.

It won't be a man that takes Riverrun, but Lady Stoneheart.

Riverrun is where Lady Stoneheart would have the best opportunity to stage a RW. The smallfolk of Riverrun would likely aid her (and the Blackfish) given they served the Tullys their whole lives while they know Emmon Frey got Riverrun as a reward for the RW, and his wife is a Lannister, the same ilk that attacked them in the first place. Plus, Emmon Frey doesn't inspire loyalty with Jaime remarking it was hard not to feel contemptuous of him. His pompous attitude doesn't help either as demonstrated by talking to smallfolk of Riverrun for three hours in the rain waving the king's decree, and telling them what he expected of them, compared to Edmure who sheltered them in Riverrun during the Battle of the Fords.

That is all without mentioning that Lady Stoneheart will be pissed at the thought of them in her family's seat.

After the trouble Ser Brynden took to leave us, I doubt that he'll come skulking back. Unless it is at the head of a band of outlaws. He did not doubt that the Blackfish meant to continue the fight.

I think the BwB would find the Blackfish, and he would work with them when he meets his niece, although he would be shocked at seeing her.

"I [Jaime] cannot linger. Riverrun awaits."

I think UnCat will bring Jaime with her to Riverrun. How else are we going to have a POV to see what happens?

Wedding: Daven Lannister to the Frey of his choice

Daven seems the only possibility for the groom to me. I think Old Lord Walder would be there as well given as he demonstrated with Cat and Robb's corpses, he is very proud and likes to humiliate his enemies. Hosting a wedding for his kin at the castle of his former overlord/foe and family that slighted him, that now belongs to his son would be the ultimate triumph/humiliation. It would also be a demonstration of the glory of the Lannister-Frey power and a celebration of their alliance like Joffrey's wedding was meant to be a demonstration of the glory of the Lannister-Tyrell power and celebrating their alliance (and we all know how that ended).

"Sing sweetly, Tom O' Sevens."

​Bloody hell, he [Tywin Lannister] looks like a bridegroom at his bedding.

Tom O' Sevens would likely be singing at the wedding, and I subscribe to the theory of "sweetness" having negative associations. The RW was signaled when the musicians played "the Reynes of Castamere" during the bedding. I think the attack at Riverrun would be signaled during Daven's bedding when Tom plays "Wolf in the Night," which commemorates Robb's victory at Oxcross. Daven would be killed in his birthday suit given that, poor guy.

The men who resist would be cut down while those that yield (like the Frey men-at-arms Jaime found who yielded), and likely the Frey women and children, would be hanged. If Stoneheart was willing to hand Podrick Payne, why would she stop at a few Lannister-Frey children?

It would take away the sweetness of vengeance for the RW.

Catelyn would gladly have spitted the querulous old man [Walder Frey] and roasted him over a fire

The corpses had been stripped naked [by the BwB], and each man had a crabapple shoved between his teeth. None bore any wounds; plainly, they had yielded. Strongboar had grown furious at that, vowing bloody vengeance on the heads of any men who would truss up warriors to die like suckling pigs.

Lord Walder, however, would get special treatment. I think first Lady Stoneheart would make him apologize like he had Robb do at the Twins. Frightened by an undead Cat without the protection of the walls of the Twins and his numerous brood, he would likely beg for his life, showing himself for the weak coward he really is.

None of that will save him, I think he would be likely roasted over a spit like a suckling pig the quote above possibly hints at. I don't think his body would ever be recovered after that.

Of course, all that would likely leave the Blackfish a bit disillusioned, seeing Lady Stoneheart isn't the same person he knew and loved, with the killing of women and children. He would likely urge her to spare them, or keep them as prisoners and hostages, but that will not pass, and the BwB ultimately obeys her. I think the Blackfish would have preferred a clean execution for Lord Walder after a trial as well. I think that would get him to leave the BwB and UnCat.

The state of House Frey after Lord Walder's death would likely be chaos with a civil war with Black Walder wanting to remove Edwyn as Lord of Crossing, and Lothar working behind the scenes.

[Mithras]

I agree with the RW 2.0 and I also agree that this vengeance will not be satisfying to the readers. It will be foul and bloody. The BwB seems to be lost under LS's rule.

But I don't expect LS to survive long after the RW 2.0. How do you think she will perish and how Jaime and Brienne will depart from the BwB? Do you think Howland Reed will show up in person at last to have a quarrel with LS?

[Fire Eater]

I agree with the RW 2.0 and I also agree that this vengeance will not be satisfying to the readers. It will be foul and bloody. The BwB seems to be lost under LS's rule.

But I don't expect LS to survive long after the RW 2.0. How do you think she will perish and how Jaime and Brienne will depart from the BwB? Do you think Howland Reed will show up in person at last to have a quarrel with LS?

The fate of LS is one of the few things I am uncertain of. The closest I got is that her purpose is vengeance, and once she kills the Freys at Riverrun, Stannis and Manderly take care of the Freys in the North, the Freys (and possibly Dany) take care of the Freys at the Twins, then with House Frey gone, the purpose, the fuel for her fire, having been fulfilled, the fire that drives her will dwindle and she will die again, permanently this time. Or someone close to her could kill her, the culprits ranging from Brienne to Arya.

As for how Jaime and Brienne would depart from the BwB, I think the Blackfish could help them escape. He would know Brienne to be good, honorable person, and have little qualms letting her go. However, I don't think she would leave without Jaime. It was a Tully that allowed for Jaime and Brienne to escape the first time in the form of Catelyn, and a Tully may help them escape again.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

i think Nymeria could play a role in the RW2.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107894-nymerias-role-in-twow/?p=5674977

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107894-nymerias-role-in-twow/?p=5676422

[Belgarad]

I don't think the Blackfish ever left Riverrun, I have a feeling he's down in the family hidey-hole, like the one JonCon had his men search when they took Griffin's Roost.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Emmon Frey has a garrison 200 strong and is a cautious guy. The Brotherhood isn't big enough to overcome that. Even with trickery.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Emmon Frey has a garrison 200 strong and is a cautious guy. The Brotherhood isn't big enough to overcome that. Even with trickery.

Yeah. I think people are overestimating the Brotherhoods capabilities. The original Red Wedding had Robbs 3,500 up against double that. I doubt the brotherhood has the numbers to even equal the Garrison and whatever amount the Warden of the West and the Freys brings to Riverrun, never mind being able to sneak that many in.

Now that it is winter the Brotherhoods biggest worry is being able to survive as outlaws.

At best they can hope for is a purple wedding 2.0 and poison a high profile person.

[Fire Eater]

Emmon Frey has a garrison 200 strong and is a cautious guy. The Brotherhood isn't big enough to overcome that. Even with trickery.

A cautious guy? His own wife knows him to be incompetent. The BwB has many times those numbers, and as I stated, the smallfolk of Riverrun would be inclined to help them given they've served the Tullys their whole lives. Don't underestimate team smallfolk. Also, UnCat and the Blackfish grew up in Riverrun, and likely know the castle inside and out, more so than any of the Freys or Lannisters. Finally, the BwB has an agent inside, Tom O'Sevens, and whatever guards posted can be taken out.

It would also be a wedding with the people in Riverrun distracted, and likely not expecting an attack. The garrison would be having some feast as well. Surprise and agents inside the fortress could make up for much.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Yeah. I think people are overestimating the Brotherhoods capabilities. The original Red Wedding had Robbs 3,500 up against double that. I doubt the brotherhood has the numbers to even equal the Garrison and whatever amount the Warden of the West and the Freys brings to Riverrun, never mind being able to sneak that many in.

Now that it is winter the Brotherhoods biggest worry is being able to survive as outlaws.

At best they can hope for is a purple wedding 2.0 and poison a high profile person.

What about the Riverrun garrison, disbanded by Kingslayer? Granted they are without arms, but alive. And any RW 2.0 will be a Riverlords BWB joint operation, not only BWB.

[Ramsays Fleyed Lips]

The BWB seems to have many supporters all over the area--what's to say they could not raise support enough to meet the Freys? I hope it's not a copy of the red wedding. GRRM has written that many of the POVs will converge in TWOW. What's saying the BWB won't meet up with even more support than their current network? Will the Vale come into play? Will Arya make an appearance? How about the Brothers on the Quiet Isle? Stannis & his growing band of Northern supporters? The Mormonts & Glovers? Those elusive Crannogmen? The Frey hostages even? I cannot place where, but I'm certain I read the hostages were due for release...What happens to Riverun afterward? Who would get it? Edmure and his wife are the only direct Tully's living. Would Cat & Lysas' children inherit it? Wouldn't that be something.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What about the Riverrun garrison, disbanded by Kingslayer? Granted they are without arms, but alive. And any RW 2.0 will be a Riverlords BWB joint operation, not only BWB.

Didn't they also swear oaths not to raise arms against either Emmon or the Lannisters? Some may well break their vows, but others would want to honor them and some would just want to get on with their lives. Fighting for fightings sake is not something most normal people would do.

[Elia Sand]

The Red Wedding 2.0 would be a bloodbath, not unlike what I think TWoW will be.

[Darksnider05]

How do you think Nymeria and her wolf pack will come into play?

I believe they'll be hunting stragglers or anyone running out in the open from the twins. Most likely escaping Frey family members the young and old along with their mothers.

Wolves are not meant for storming castles and that would be stupid. But picking off people in the night well humans sleep and can't see shit in the dark unless by moonlight or fire which runs out.

So most likely dieing in terror surrounded by three digits worth of wolves while exhausted from attempting to keep watch.

[Mithras]

I don't think the Blackfish ever left Riverrun, I have a feeling he's down in the family hidey-hole, like the one JonCon had his men search when they took Griffin's Roost.

That is what I think as well.

When Barristan grew a beard, he was just an old man. No one recognized him as he watched Ned's execution. Same can be true for Blackfish. He might pose as an old man and no one except the old servants can recognize him.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Didn't they also swear oaths not to raise arms against either Emmon or the Lannisters? Some may well break their vows, but others would want to honor them and some would just want to get on with their lives. Fighting for fightings sake is not something most normal people would do.

No they didn't swear any oath.

Even if they did, do you really think any Northerner or Riverlander is gonna give two fucks about vows extracted at the threat of Death by execution, that too in a post Red Wedding Westeros?

They won't be fighting just for fighting, they will be fighting for Vengeance if not Justice.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No they didn't swear any oath.

Yeah, they did: "The Tully garrison departed the next morning, stripped of all their arms and armor. Each man was allowed three days' food and the clothing on his back, after he swore a solemn oath never to take up arms against Lord Emmon or House Lannister."

Ryger, the captain of the Guards and Grell and Master of Arms were the only two who chose to keep their weapons and were taken to the Wall.

Even if they did, do you really think any Northerner or Riverlander is gonna give two fucks about vows extracted at the threat of Death by execution, that too in a post Red Wedding Westeros?

Most vows carry the threat of execution, both in Westeros history and real medieval history. Obviously not all the men will care about the vow, but some will as being honorable is important to the majority of people in Westeros.

They won't be fighting just for fighting, they will be fighting for Vengeance if not Justice.

Oh come on, the average Riverrun guard is not going to be that invested. They'd be more concerned with finding work. Lords like Brynden may have the resources to focus on an endless fight, the small folk don't.

[Lord Lannister]

I agree with the RW 2.0 and I also agree that this vengeance will not be satisfying to the readers. It will be foul and bloody. The BwB seems to be lost under LS's rule.

But I don't expect LS to survive long after the RW 2.0. How do you think she will perish and how Jaime and Brienne will depart from the BwB? Do you think Howland Reed will show up in person at last to have a quarrel with LS?

Yeah, the whole LS plot line already leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The whole zombie resurrection bit aside, it pretty much ruined an otherwise good character and turned an interesting group in the BwB into a group that not much different than the bad guys. I'm personally rooting for Jaime and Brienne to kill her somehow in the next book, but things seldom work out that neatly. I'd settle for any of her kids doing a "you're not my mother" moment.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Yeah, they did: "The Tully garrison departed the next morning, stripped of all their arms and armor. Each man was allowed three days' food and the clothing on his back, after he swore a solemn oath never to take up arms against Lord Emmon or House Lannister."

Ryger, the captain of the Guards and Grell and Master of Arms were the only two who chose to keep their weapons and were taken to the Wall.

Most vows carry the threat of execution, both in Westeros history and real medieval history. Obviously not all the men will care about the vow, but some will as being honorable is important to the majority of people in Westeros.

Oh come on, the average Riverrun guard is not going to be that invested. They'd be more concerned with finding work. Lords like Brynden may have the resources to focus on an endless fight, the small folk don't.

My bad about therebeing no vow.

But my point about them not keeping the vow still stands. Guest Right and Vows don't mean shit in post-Red Wedding Westeros. BWB are hanging Freys left right without allowing any chance to explain.

As for the bolded Like Mountain Clans of North? Don't delude yourself that Lannisters and Freys aren't gonna get their just desserts for what they did at the Twins.

[ShaggyCat]

Don't get me wrong: I want the Freys to get what is coming to them for RW. But I don't know if I want BwB and LS to do RW2.

[The Dragons Hand]

Don't get me wrong: I want the Freys to get what is coming to them for RW. But I don't know if I want BwB and LS to do RW2.

Logically I agree.

Emotionally?

KILL, MURDER, KILL, SLAY THE BETRAYING WRETCHES, END THE LINE OF THE WEASELLY BETRAYING SWINE. *Weasel-pigs, nice*