Heresy 162

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

<snip>

I don't know if this has been brought into the discussion yet, but it's worth mentioning I think (and I'm making a deliberate effort to plaster it everywhere in discussions of the TWOW and the Battle of Ice) in light of how unnatural the blizzard that currently envelopes Winterfell:

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones.

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons.” -Davos, ADWD.

If GRRM simply wanted to confirm blood sacrifice to the Old Gods in Davos’s chapter, Bran’s weirwood visions could have sufficed, or he could have just have had Ser Bartimus describe it in another manner. Instead, GRRM chose to specifically describe a historical event in which the Old Gods sent down a savior-king named Brandon from the north when a long cruel winter fell to retake a castle and were given grisly sacrifice as compensation. Bran’s eyes are deep blue because of his Tully heritage, and eyes of this color are often compared to ice in the narrative.

I don't Jojen was sacrificed to make the paste: I think he was sacrificed to make that blizzard, and I believe that Bran will, after the Battle on Long Lake is resolved with the Freys' annihilation and the Mountain Clans still being trapped outside the walls, return through Gorne's Way to lead his people to a bloody victory.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't know if this has been brought into the discussion yet, but it's worth mentioning I think (and I'm making a deliberate effort to plaster it everywhere in discussions of the TWOW and the Battle of Ice) in light of how unnatural the blizzard that currently envelopes Winterfell:

If GRRM simply wanted to confirm blood sacrifice to the Old Gods in Davos’s chapter, Bran’s weirwood visions could have sufficed, or he could have just have had Ser Bartimus describe it in another manner. Instead, GRRM chose to specifically describe a historical event in which the Old Gods sent down a savior-king named Brandon from the north when a long cruel winter fell to retake a castle and were given grisly sacrifice as compensation. Bran’s eyes are deep blue because of his Tully heritage, and eyes of this color are often compared to ice in the narrative.

I don't Jojen was sacrificed to make the paste: I think he was sacrificed to make that blizzard, and I believe that Bran will, after the Battle on Long Lake is resolved with the Freys' annihilation and the Mountain Clans still being trapped outside the walls, return through Gorne's Way to lead his people to a bloody victory.

That is a very sweet quote and one can see the parallels between that past event and what has transpired now in Winterfell.Well it is safe to say that its probably in peoples interest to have a Stark in Winterfell.

I am hesitant to ascribe the restoration of Winterfell to Bran,though it seems his name is associated with such things.Rickon if returned can suit this nicley,he has the look and i he would have the verocity and the backing.Who is to say that Rickon might not get "supernatural" aid to do so,even if he himself doesn't actually do anything.Just the "gods" ehem working on his behalf to pave the way for his return.

[Voice]

Joffrey, Joffrey... never mind I can't see Tommen living to collect his pension either. :devil:

Agreed! LOL, but I think it's time for that reread there mate ;)

[markg171]

True, true and of course another consequence perhaps little appreciated by those who don't write themselves is that unless there is a constant and very conscious pruning, the same forms of words and phrases are used again and again time out of mind. The famous textual analyses practiced by some to "discover" clues to the overriding mystery of Jon Snow is actually way off the mark here because the apparent repetition of key words and phrases is most likely not deliberate at all, but reflects that lack of discipline.

I'd also point out that when you do a textual analysis of any other phrase, like Lyanna being spattered with gore in Theon's dream, it of course can't be the same incredibly consistent and thoughtful writing of GRRM when it comes to his bed of blood stuff.

In which case either he is never consistent, or he is only consistent when it suits a certain theory. But far more likely as you suggest, he is just lazy.

[markg171]

Just want to add my nod. Great points.

In Game, we saw the game. In Clash, we saw the clash. And so on. As boring as Feast was, it at least lived up to its name. You felt the destruction of war, and saw the feast that remained for crows. Dance in no way lived up to its billing.

The Meereenese Knot was never necessary, and aside from Victarion, was quite boring. If instead she'd set sail for Westeros, and set her dragons to dancing upon King's Landing, and those who shit gold there, it would have been more interesting, yes. But even more than that, the title itself would have meant something, as the others have.

Of the two, Feast and Dance, Dance was far more interesting for me. Even Quentyn, though completely pointless, was at least entertaining. The same cannot be said of Brienne.

Well Dance did introduce us to another Targaryen who she will quarrel with. But you're right that he never actually included the Dance happening.

[Evolett]

Seriously though, this is I think my greatest objection to the whole R+L=J theory, at least so far as it is argued in that we're dealing with a story far more complex than the return of the king in the shape of Jon Targaryen and all the other fan-fiction that goes with it.

The initial synopsis has unquestionably changed in many ways, but at its heart it remains a struggle between the Starks and the Lannisters with the last of the Targaryen Dragonlords just one more peril they have to face.

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

Thus it is too with Stark and Lannister, which is why the Wolf must hunt with the Lion and so on. Above all "the land is one" and that land is Westeros, which must stand united against the afflictions of both Ice and Fire.

In the meantime we are given so much in the way of textual clues that the Starks are not merely a part of the struggle but a part of the land and perhaps a part of the problem. We assume that the Starks are so powerful because they are descended of the last hero, but why then the connections with Ice and with Winter and the old gods rather than the new?

And why the feud with the Lannisters?

It seems odd that it should figure so prominently in the synopsis and indeed in the books as written, but yet to all appearances springs from the Lannisters adroitly switching sides in the rebellion. Its possible, all things are possible, but might there be something more deeply seated. Might the last of the 13 heroes have been a Lannister and the Starks the allies of the old powers who brought down the Long Night?

I just noticed your post and would like to share my thoughts:

I’ve also asked myself these questions and subscribe to the idea that Westeros must stand united against ice and fire and / or bring about a fusion of these two principles. So far, the entire history of Westeros has been one of conflict. CotF against Giants, CofF and Giants against First Men, Andals against First Men, Targaryens versus Andals and First Men. I'll use the terms 'fire principle' and 'ice principle' to reference the forces of fire and ice.

The Targaryen conquest represents the first serious attempt to unify the land in thousands of years but I think Aegon the Conqueror was more concerned with uniting Westeros under the ‘fire principle’. It's likely the ancient Valyrians were aware of the existence of the Others or at least of an opposing ice principle in the world. They also knew the origin or seat of that principle (Westeros) and probably entertained the idea of counteracting or even eliminating it. The island of Dragonstone was not chosen by chance. It’s a volcanic island with rich deposits of obsidian. The architecture of the ancient fortress of Dragonstone is interesting in itself. The main tower is a round stone drum and there are thousands of gargoyles in place of normal crenellations. Gargoyles not only served as drainage systems in ancient and medieval times. Their hideous faces were meant to represent and to ward off evil. The ancient Valyrians must have feared something really potent if they felt the need to erect thousands of gargoyles as a kind of spiritual defence system. In short, I think the Valyrians came to enforce the fire principle.

The Starks on the other hand uphold and enforce the ice principle and I suspect that they are bound to do so in order to prevent the fire principle from taking over. I envisage a treaty between the ancient Starks and the Others after the Long Night, one in which they agree to terms designed to uphold and defend this ice principle against the fire principle. The pact probably includes maintaining the old gods and traditions such as guest right and so on. The early Kings of Winter would have known the terms of the pact and a look at the history of the North suggests they did everything in their power to uphold it.

The title ‘Kings of Winter’ also sounds as if they had some power over winter while the name Winterfell itself suggests the ‘felling’ or breaking / prevention of winter. I’m not sure of the role Winterfell itself plays in this scenario but on a side note, the First Keep, the oldest keep in Winterfell, is also round and surmounted by numerous gargoyles (like Dragonstone). Indeed, Bran used them in climbing and slipped on the day of his fall. He later also dreams of malevolent gargoyles with red eyes coming after him. Makes me wonder if the Winterfell gargoyles were once erected to ward of fire magic.

Okay, so the Starks solidified their position by conquest to become the dominant force in the North, a prerequisite to enforcing the ice principle.

The general idea of the Starks upholding the principle of ice would also explain why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Most importantly, I suspect that such a pact would expressly forbid the ‘mating of ice and fire’ in terms of a marriage and the subsequent creation of children who unify the two principles. There has not been a physical union of Targaryens and Starks in the past. Marriages arranged after the conquest did not come to be. This is where Jon Snow comes in. I suspect that it his birth (if R+l=J is true), then this event finally galvanizes the Others into action. Prior to this we see a gradual decline in the Stark’s power. They go from being Kings of Winter to Kings in the North and finally to mere Wardens of the North after Aegon’s Conquest. This erosion of power must have worried the Others. Now a unifying principle in the shape of Jon exists and it’s time to do something about it.

If the Others are worried, so is the faction representing the principle of fire and this is where the Lannisters come in. In the absence of the leading fire principle in Westeros (the Targaryens), I see the Lannisters as a tool of Fire. Their sigil, the lion, reminds me of the astrological sign Leo, which is ruled by the sun. They do everything possible to crush the Starks from the word go, beginning with the attempted murder of Bran. Tywin Lannister ensures there will be no adult Lord of Winterfell when he engineers Robb’s death.

As to the Lannister’s switching sides – Tywin remained ambivalent until the last minute during Robert’s rebellion. He struck only when he knew that the Targaryens were finished. Robert’s marriage to Cersei immediately ensured the continued power of House Lannister (and the principle of fire) and Cersei’s incestuous relationship essentially produced bastards with a right to the Iron Throne, which further solidifies the fire principle. (Don’t ask me which entity is pulling the strings here)

I also think Ned seals the Stark’s fate, drives the last nail into the coffin, when he kneels before Robert in the crypts of Winterfell with the Kings of Winter bearing witness (There must be a reason why wildlings are so opposed to kneeling). Ned's dreams (also Jon's) suggest that the Kings of Winter are angry after this.

Now, I’m not sure how Rhaegar interpreted his prophecy. Was it in terms of bringing about a unity of ice and fire or did he want to uphold the fire principle of his ancestors? Could the three heads of the dragon represent unity in terms of Westeros – a unity of First Men, Andals and Valyrians?

[Black Crow]

I just noticed your post and would like to share my thoughts..

Welcome to Heresy.

Its an interesting post which bears some thinking on. I'm inclined myself to see it more in line with the synopsis and that the Targaryen Dragonlords are the intruders, who have upset the balance between Ice and Fire in Westeros. In terms of the Reeds' oath it appears that the children represent ice and men fire. Men came to Westeros and upset the balance using fire, bronze and steel; the old powers retaliated by bringing down that winter and their winter soldiers until a settlement was reached, which bound the Starks at least to Winter.

Then came the Targaryens with a yet more powerful brand of fire and the old powers are awakening. Yes they came 300 years ago but when everything else is expressed in terms of thousands of years and the children live for hundreds of years that really isn't very long.

[King Tyrion XX]

If so, AFFC and ADWD should have consumed five years, but it seems GRRM wasn't even close.

And really, it seems to me that as long as the dragons grow adequately, the rest of the issues (ex: aren't Bran and Arya a little young?) can be made to work. Since the rate of dragon growth is a matter of personal choice on his part, problem solved. No need for filler.

The guy is a skilled writer and I love a lot of things about his work -- in particular, his mysteries are flat-out superior to anything in the history of the genre. But he simply cannot control his wordcount, and it's really cost the series. Had he published the original AFFC as a single book with most of the logical progress of ADWD -- the "tighter, stronger text" to which he aspires, he would have been far ahead of HBO at this point, and we would be far more satisfied readers.

First time I read the series I thought to myself he published 3 books in 4 years then 2 in 11....you mean I couldve read the completed series by now???

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

That is a very sweet quote and one can see the parallels between that past event and what has transpired now in Winterfell.Well it is safe to say that its probably in peoples interest to have a Stark in Winterfell.

I am hesitant to ascribe the restoration of Winterfell to Bran,though it seems his name is associated with such things.Rickon if returned can suit this nicley,he has the look and i he would have the verocity and the backing.Who is to say that Rickon might not get "supernatural" aid to do so,even if he himself doesn't actually do anything.Just the "gods" ehem working on his behalf to pave the way for his return.

I do believe that the Skagosi will throw their lot in for a Stark restoration, but his role will be as a figurehead largely because he is so young: only six.

There is a very convenient pathway for Bran to reach Winterfell: Gorne's Way,

Men should not go wandering in this place,” Leaf warned them. “The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years.”

“There are hundreds o’ caves in these hills and down deep they all connect. There’s even a way under your Wall. Gorne’s Way.”

“Gorne,” said Jon, “Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall.”

“Aye,” said, Ygritte, “Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led o’ host of free folk through the caves…”

“Gendel did not die. He cut his way free, through the crows and led his people back north with the wolves howling at their heels. Only Gendel not know the Caves, as Gorne had, and took a wrong turn….Deeper and deeper he went, and when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky…Gendel’s folk were never seen again.”

It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk’s History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall.

[Evolett]

Welcome to Heresy.

Its an interesting post which bears some thinking on. I'm inclined myself to see it more in line with the synopsis and that the Targaryen Dragonlords are the intruders, who have upset the balance between Ice and Fire in Westeros. In terms of the Reeds' oath it appears that the children represent ice and men fire. Men came to Westeros and upset the balance using fire, bronze and steel; the old powers retaliated by bringing down that winter and their winter soldiers until a settlement was reached, which bound the Starks at least to Winter.

Then came the Targaryens with a yet more powerful brand of fire and the old powers are awakening. Yes they came 300 years ago but when everything else is expressed in terms of thousands of years and the children live for hundreds of years that really isn't very long.

I'm with you up until the issue of balance. I don't think a balance was ever restored or that it was there in the first place. The Others appear to be the embodiment of ice, the leading ice principle, entities which tolerate no competition, at least not in a form out of their control (akin to the God of the Old Testament who tolerated no other gods and brought destruction on those who dared defy him). The bitter and generation Long Night suggests they were determined to destroy mankind rather than accept any balance. I think the main purpose of the settlement was to make sure the First Men adhered to the 'principle of ice' in the future by giving men another chance and instating the Starks to enforce the 'rules'. This worked well for quite a while. The First Men kept the Old Gods all over westeros, the Starks consolidated their power in the North etc. The first test came with the migration of the Andals into Westeros, an era which the Stark's weathered, though their power as Kings of Winter diminished somewhat. A visible sign that the pact was still upheld are the weirwoods in most major castles. Then the Targaryens arrived with their dragons with an even more powerful brand of fire as you say, a real and much more serious threat to the ice principle than ever before. IMO, I think the balance was never achieved, is yet to be achieved. Both the Others and the champions of the principle of fire will have to succumb to a compromise that really embraces ultimate balance of these elements.

[WeaselPie]

I don't know if this has been brought into the discussion yet, but it's worth mentioning I think (and I'm making a deliberate effort to plaster it everywhere in discussions of the TWOW and the Battle of Ice) in light of how unnatural the blizzard that currently envelopes Winterfell:

If GRRM simply wanted to confirm blood sacrifice to the Old Gods in Davos’s chapter, Bran’s weirwood visions could have sufficed, or he could have just have had Ser Bartimus describe it in another manner. Instead, GRRM chose to specifically describe a historical event in which the Old Gods sent down a savior-king named Brandon from the north when a long cruel winter fell to retake a castle and were given grisly sacrifice as compensation. Bran’s eyes are deep blue because of his Tully heritage, and eyes of this color are often compared to ice in the narrative.

I don't Jojen was sacrificed to make the paste: I think he was sacrificed to make that blizzard, and I believe that Bran will, after the Battle on Long Lake is resolved with the Freys' annihilation and the Mountain Clans still being trapped outside the walls, return through Gorne's Way to lead his people to a bloody victory.

We're on the same page, friend :cheers:

[WeaselPie]

I do believe that the Skagosi will throw their lot in for a Stark restoration, but his role will be as a figurehead largely because he is so young: only six.

There is a very convenient pathway for Bran to reach Winterfell: Gorne's Way,

I've been prattling on about Gorne's way for ages, as most here know. It's a thing, and it will be a thing.

And Bran mentions Gendel's children in the Cot3EC, and there is also the vast underground black river and black sea accessed inside the Cave, and the "bottomless black pool" under the heart tree in Winterfell. All connected IMO.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I've been prattling on about Gorne's way for ages, as most here know. It's a thing, and it will be a thing.

And Bran mentions Grendel's children in the Cot3EC, and there is also the vast underground black river and black sea, and the "bottomless black pool" under the heart tree in Winterfell. All connected IMO.

You've figured something between the black pool (which is cold even though its supposed to be on top of hot springs?) and the black underground river! A kindred spirit! :cheers:

I'm honestly really excited for what sort of horror element Gendel's Children could bring to Bran's chapter as he and whoever of his party are still alive as they travel through Gorne's Way.

[Black Crow]

I'm with you up until the issue of balance. I don't think a balance was ever restored or that it was there in the first place. The Others appear to be the embodiment of ice, the leading ice principle, entities which tolerate no competition, at least not in a form out of their control (akin to the God of the Old Testament who tolerated no other gods and brought destruction on those who dared defy him). The bitter and generation Long Night suggests they were determined to destroy mankind rather than accept any balance. I think the main purpose of the settlement was to make sure the First Men adhered to the 'principle of ice' in the future by giving men another chance and instating the Starks to enforce the 'rules'. This worked well for quite a while. The First Men kept the Old Gods all over westeros, the Starks consolidated their power in the North etc. The first test came with the migration of the Andals into Westeros, an era which the Stark's weathered, though their power as Kings of Winter diminished somewhat. A visible sign that the pact was still upheld are the weirwoods in most major castles. Then the Targaryens arrived with their dragons with an even more powerful brand of fire as you say, a real and much more serious threat to the ice principle than ever before. IMO, I think the balance was never achieved, is yet to be achieved. Both the Others and the champions of the principle of fire will have to succumb to a compromise that really embraces ultimate balance of these elements.

The balance doesn't have to be a happy balance - an armed neutrality often serves perfectly well.

[WeaselPie]

You've figured something between the black pool (which is cold even though its supposed to be on top of hot springs?) and the black underground river! A kindred spirit! :cheers:

I'm honestly really excited for what sort of horror element Gendel's Children could bring to Bran's chapter as he and whoever of his party are still alive as they travel through Gorne's Way.

The well that leads down to the Black Gate could also be connected to the black river. ;)

You might have missed me saying this, but the effigies of the Kings of Winter with bare steel on their laps are showing denial of Guest Right. The same gesture Robb shows Tyrion, and Bran mentions it. If Gorne's Way/The Black River leads to Winterfell, the KoW could have been showing this gesture for millenia against unwelcome "guests." Ned also shows the same gesture when he hangs out by under the heart tree right over the black pool.

We know Gorne got through. It's possible there's another entrance near Long Lake (going back to the CotF and the Giants).

Oh it's gonna happen. I just wonder if it will be Bran and Co that come through or ... Others. IMO Others have gotten through in the past. And that may be one great reason BR is in that very cave, and why it's warded, because it's an entrance to south of the wall.

[Black Crow]

There is a very convenient pathway for Bran to reach Winterfell: Gorne's Way,

It may be a convenient way of by-passing the Wall as the Scooby gang already discovered when using the Black Gate, but there's no ignoring the fact its a very long way to Winterfell.

[WeaselPie]

It may be a convenient way of by-passing the Wall as the Scooby gang already discovered when using the Black Gate, but there's no ignoring the fact its a very long way to Winterfell.

Certainly not as bad by river.

[Evolett]

The balance doesn't have to be a happy balance - an armed neutrality often serves perfectly well.

True :)

[Black Crow]

Ah, but which way does it flow?

Seriously, given the story of how the Lord Stark's daughter went into the Winterfell crypts for a year and a day before emerging with Bael's son, I'd be inclined to look for a magical explanation rather than a re-run of Journey to the Centre of the Earth.

[WeaselPie]

Ah, but which way does it flow?

Seriously, given the story of how the Lord Stark's daughter went into the Winterfell crypts for a year and a day before emerging with Bael's son, I'd be inclined to look for a magical explanation rather than a re-run of Journey to the Centre of the Earth.

Does it matter? GRRM invented the world, has Ygritte yap about Gorne's way to Jon, Jon repeatedly yaps about it, then Bran mentions Gendel's children AND sneaks a peak at the black river through Hodor while listening to Leaf tell him about the vast underground sea.

It's a thing. I personally don't think it will be Bran using it, but someone will indeed be using it.

I'll even go so far as to say that Dany got a very interesting map as a gift, now she can travel on Drogon, she did have a dream about the crones coming out of the womb of the world lake under the mother of moutains, and there is a strange geographical feature in East Essos... The Dry Deep. Complete with forts, winged men and bloodless men.

PS I don't think we'll get a travelogue a la Brienne. And it could be as simple as being a reveal that the passage and or river/sea was used in the past.