Is Sansa the perfect alibi?

[Beorn Snow]

It is hard to predict Littlefinger and what he is up to. Remember all the different crack pot theories about the significance of the tapestries he gave to Nestor Royce.

Many believe LF means to marry Sansa and become king in the end. Other believe he is some sort of a Braavosi agent. Others point out that tapestries belonging to Robert serve as a reminder of the Baratheon dynasty and point out Shireen+Sweetrobin would indeed seal the Iron throne. (But ... Stannis hates people like LF).

So, is LF out to kill Sweetrobin? Why? he has the Vale under his control (somewhat) through being his guardian and bribing noble families in money-troubles.
But it looks suspicious, SR´s health is precarious and the way LF pushes the maester to drug him is risky. So it seems marrying Alayne, his bastard daughter to Harry, SR´s heir, he is creating a back up plan. Manipulating Harry through his wife. Sansa is told that at the wedding her true origins will be revealed and Harry and the knights of the Vale will flock to her and swear to take back Winterfell.

But I wonder. With SR Littlefinger has the Vale, with Harry&Sansa he has Sansa´s ear (which was enough with Jon Arryn who made him master of coin probably because of Lysa)... But it´s still a risk.

However. What if Littlefinger sees Harry really as a threat. And would prefer to get rid off him and keep SR around. Offing him at a tourney ... requires a solid plan and a good alibi. By betrothing his daughter to him, he seems to be the man with the most to lose. When he really is the one with most to gain.

[Jak Scaletongue]

I never thought about it that way before! I'll need to do some contemplating! Thanks!

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

An outline of the series was leaked recently according to which, GRRM initially planned to have Jaime kill everyone ahead of him in the line of succession so that he can sit on the Iron Throne. I wonder if he does something with Littlefinger killing Robert, then Harry and finally trying to marry Sansa and rule through her offspring with Harry.

[Curled Finger]

It's been so hard to define exactly what that rat Little Finger is up to. However, his plots and schemes always benefit him. I think he's after power and a sight more than he's got. Look, he's already Lord Protector of the Vale and he's got a big impressive title of the Riverlands that he's curiously done absolutely nothing with. It's natural that his next step will be to use his influence over Sansa to make a play for the north. I don't know how much the show is integrating their foreknowledge, but in the last episode he told Cersei he wanted to be named Warden of the North. That makes perfect sense to me as his next move and what his interest in Sansa really is. So he gets to be Top Dog of 3 regions to what end? Pull a Pinkie & The Brain total world dominion play? I believe he wants to rule Westeros. He's setting himself up to take over everything by controlling the food supply. It's interesting to see his interplay with the nobles in the Vale, but I wonder what his small folk think of him. Wish I knew what his relationship with the Tyrells really is. And if LF represents chaos and discord, what is Varys?

[girlfrommonday]

he's got a big impressive title of the Riverlands that he's curiously done absolutely nothing with.

He probably just waiting until the Lannister troops leave the region.

[Lance Corporal Underpants]

LF always seemed like the kingmaker type, rather than the wielding-power-directly type, though perhaps this overreaching is his undoing

[Nerevanin]

My theory is this (althought it's complicated a lot and it will take a lot of time) :

LF holds the power in the Vale right now but there are two heirs (SR and HTH (Harry the Heir)). Even though SR's health is very fragile, HTH seems to be enjoying lfe as much as he could. And even if both of them die, the power wouldn't go to LF, as I am sure ther are some other distant SR relatives etc. But what I think is that LF plans to kill both SR and HTH and rule thanks to Sansa.

How? SR is a sick child. He will most likely die on his own but LF is making sure that it will happen. He told the maester to give sweetsleep to SR and as we know, sweetsleep doesn't leave the victim's body, it only cummulates to eventually kill the person. SR already got quite a lot of sweetsleep and probably it's only a matter of time when it's too much. So poor SR dies. LF can blame it on his fragile health or on the maester and tell that the maester gave him a too high dose. So SR is dead. But what about HTH? He isn't a small sick kid whose mentality was probably damaged by his mother, in other words, LF won't be able to manipulate with HTH. So he has to act quickly before SR dies. He arranges the marriage of HTH and Sansa, a girl who is disguised as his daughter and who more or less likes him because he protects her and saved her from Joffrey and Tyrion. Before SR dies, HTH and Sansa must marry. LF then can manipulate with HTH through Sansa and it will probably work, because Sansa already bewitched HTH in the Alayne sample chapter. But even with Sansa's charm LF may not be able to influence HTH in everything and HTH might grow more independent and disobedient as he grows up. So what's plan? Sansa must get pregnant with HTH's child (well, not necessary with HTH's child, it will do if people believe that it is HTH's child, so LF can conceive the child himself). Once Sansa is pregnant with the real or believed new heir, Harry will probably have a terrible accident and dies. But no need to despair because his young wife is pregnant! And who would doubt the legicimacy of a child whose mother is such a sweet, innocent girl?

In the meantime LF would rule instead of Sansa (who is still too young) and her child. After some time, it might be good to marry Sansa again to someone and to provide the little heir or heiress with a proper father figure. But who could be a suitable suitor for the Lady of the Vale? The Seven Kingdoms are at war, a lot of good, suitable men died in it, let alone the dangers of travelling through the realm in order to reach the Vale... So what would we do? Wait! What a happy coincidence! The lord of Harrenhal and the Lord Paramount is right there, in the Vale! And he already ruled quite some time as Lord Protector of the Vale, so he knows how it's going there and the local lords know him as well! What a perfect match! So LF marries Sansa. As LF doesn't know that Rickon and Bran are alive and that Manderly has organized a rescue mission for Rickon, he still believes that Sansa is the rightful heiress of the North. Stannis and the Boltons will with a little bit of luck decimate each other and LF would easily win the North for Sansa with the intact forces of the Vale and with a living Stark. With Sansa, as they are married now, he can control a huge portion of the realm - the North thanks to Sansa, the Riverlands as he is the Lord Paramount of the Trident and the Vale because he is the Lord Protector there and rules in the name of the unborn heir whose he is step-father. With the united forces of the North, the Riverlands and the Vale, he can probably defeat the Lannisters and the Tyrells if he wanted to and maybe his ass could even become the ass that sits on the Iron Throne.

I know, a bit too long and a bit too complicated but I can imagine that LF plans to do something like that because I don't believe that he would give up on Sansa and give her to HTH as he (LF) is clearly attracted to her. After all, Sansa is a younger and more beautiful Catelyn look-alike. To me it's clear that LF wants Sansa for himself but at first he has to secure his and her position.

If you managed to read my essay to this point, thank you for your attention! :)

[girlfrommonday]

@Nerevanin

I like you theory very much.

I will add something about the North: I'm expecting some test of strenght between Manderly and LF after Rickon's reapperance. The northern lord who found and saved Ned's son and heir vs Lady of the Vale, his last living relative. LF will not give up his plans for the North. My theory is that will trigger Sansa. She will not calmly observe actions that result in bringing Rickon south. Her parents, her brother, her sister, they all died/vanished when they headed south. She wants to go home so much, she will not participate in taking from home her brother. Plus she knows how LF treats little lords. And the emotional impact of "there must be always Stark in Winterfell".

[Mithras]

However. What if Littlefinger sees Harry really as a threat. And would prefer to get rid off him and keep SR around. Offing him at a tourney ... requires a solid plan and a good alibi. By betrothing his daughter to him, he seems to be the man with the most to lose. When he really is the one with most to gain.

Been there, done that

:cool4:

[finger]

In fact, is Sansa who holds the most rights. Or will.

She's a Stark, so she can claim the North. She's Tully for her mother, so she can claim the Riverlands. Now, she has to marry HTH, get pregnant, and get rid first or SR and then HTH.

Eta. Sansa is a tool to reach power. It doesn't mean that LF hasn't his own claims, but if he can put toghether Sansa's and his, he's stronger.

The funny thing is that Sansa also vies for power. For a while, they'll be allies. Then, will they share power?

[Nerevanin]

@Nerevanin

I like you theory very much.

I will add something about the North: I'm expecting some test of strenght between Manderly and LF after Rickon's reapperance. The northern lord who found and saved Ned's son and heir vs Lady of the Vale, his last living relative. LF will not give up his plans for the North. My theory is that will trigger Sansa. She will not calmly observe actions that result in bringing Rickon south. Her parents, her brother, her sister, they all died/vanished when they headed south. She wants to go home so much, she will not participate in taking from home her brother. Plus she knows how LF treats little lords. And the emotional impact of "there must be always Stark in Winterfell".

At first, thank you. :)

Then I'd like to say that I agree with you. I know that everyone's sure that Sansa will cause LF's downfall because he will try to rape her or something but I don't think that LF could be possibly that stupid (no matter how stupid the show tries to make him). Although I agree that she probably will be his fate, I think that the only thing that might make her act against him at this point is if he tries to push her against Rickon. Sansa knows what happens when she tries to defy her familly (Ned was executed, Arya disappeared, Sansa became hostage...) and I don't that she would do it again. Plus Rickon is her little brother. If LF was so sure about his influence over Sansa and tried to make her call him an imposter or even declare a war against him, she would probably turn against her own creator, as Sansa despite everything still didn't get greedy and ambitious that way Cersei is and when I try to describe her, the first words that came to my mind are "dutiful" and "naive". I doubt that she would turn against her little brother just to get some more power.

I wonder what would happen

[LongRider]

I think Sansa will protect Sweet Robin from LF. He's her cousin and her only other family is Jon Snow, half-brother at the Wall, Edmure who is a Lannister hostage and the Blackfish who is MIA. Why would she not protect him once she understands that LF wants him dead? Personally, I see SR making it to the end, and LF as well, but I think LF will not like how his life pans out. My hope for his future is poverty, not power.

[Ser Wun Wun]

You would think LF would rather a weakling like SR be in charge, since LF can dominate him and essentially rule through him. He can't do that with someone like Harry imo. So I definitely think you are on to something with LF planning to kill Harry before SR.

But I think LF needs Sansa to become pregnant with Harry's the Heir's child before he can kill off Harry. If Sansa is pregnant with Harry's child upon his death, that would mean she is carrying the heir to the Vale. That would give her a lot of leverage and standing with the Vale lords, moreso than if she is just the last Stark come begging them to help her restore her house.

The thing is though, the child only needs to be seen as Harry's, it doesn't actually need to be his. If Pedofinger is ever going to make his move on Sansa, and considering all the kissing and groping we know he wants to, then the marriage to Harry give him the perfect cover to do that...since outing LF for what he did would mean Sansa would have to admit to everyone that the child she is carrying, a child which gives her power in the Vale, may not be Harry's and therefore not the heir. If LF is ever going to force himself upon Sansa, I imagine these are the circumstances under which he would do it.

Or Sansa gets kidnapped by the Mad Mouse and the marriage to Harry never happens. A lot of ways her TWOW arc can go really.

[LongRider]

I think LF's plans with HtH only include a betrothal to Sansa. But;

at the upcoming tourney, he will be either killed, injured or found shagging Myranda. There goes LF's plans.

[Bastetcat]

In fact, is Sansa who holds the most rights. Or will.

She's a Stark, so she can claim the North. She's Tully for her mother, so she can claim the Riverlands. Now, she has to marry HTH, get pregnant, and get rid first or SR and then HTH.

Eta. Sansa is a tool to reach power. It doesn't mean that LF hasn't his own claims, but if he can put toghether Sansa's and his, he's stronger.

The funny thing is that Sansa also vies for power. For a while, they'll be allies. Then, will they share power?

I just have the vision: Sansa will be the queen at the end! :D The girl who is the most un-capable (so far). That would be a twist :D

The husband doesnt matter, the brain would be LF. (I am not sure he could be king. Because of his heritage, which everyone knows.)

[joluoto2]

I have always seen it as he want to have both SR and Harry close, so he can freely choose which one of them serve his purpose better when the time comes.

[Beorn Snow]

I have always seen it as he want to have both SR and Harry close, so he can freely choose which one of them serve his purpose better when the time comes.

Could very well be.

[sweetsunray]

My theory is this (althought it's complicated a lot and it will take a lot of time) :

LF holds the power in the Vale right now but there are two heirs (SR and HTH (Harry the Heir)). Even though SR's health is very fragile, HTH seems to be enjoying lfe as much as he could. And even if both of them die, the power wouldn't go to LF, as I am sure ther are some other distant SR relatives etc. But what I think is that LF plans to kill both SR and HTH and rule thanks to Sansa.

How? SR is a sick child. He will most likely die on his own but LF is making sure that it will happen. He told the maester to give sweetsleep to SR and as we know, sweetsleep doesn't leave the victim's body, it only cummulates to eventually kill the person. SR already got quite a lot of sweetsleep and probably it's only a matter of time when it's too much. So poor SR dies. LF can blame it on his fragile health or on the maester and tell that the maester gave him a too high dose. So SR is dead. But what about HTH? He isn't a small sick kid whose mentality was probably damaged by his mother, in other words, LF won't be able to manipulate with HTH. So he has to act quickly before SR dies. He arranges the marriage of HTH and Sansa, a girl who is disguised as his daughter and who more or less likes him because he protects her and saved her from Joffrey and Tyrion. Before SR dies, HTH and Sansa must marry. LF then can manipulate with HTH through Sansa and it will probably work, because Sansa already bewitched HTH in the Alayne sample chapter. But even with Sansa's charm LF may not be able to influence HTH in everything and HTH might grow more independent and disobedient as he grows up. So what's plan? Sansa must get pregnant with HTH's child (well, not necessary with HTH's child, it will do if people believe that it is HTH's child, so LF can conceive the child himself). Once Sansa is pregnant with the real or believed new heir, Harry will probably have a terrible accident and dies. But no need to despair because his young wife is pregnant! And who would doubt the legicimacy of a child whose mother is such a sweet, innocent girl?

In the meantime LF would rule instead of Sansa (who is still too young) and her child. After some time, it might be good to marry Sansa again to someone and to provide the little heir or heiress with a proper father figure. But who could be a suitable suitor for the Lady of the Vale? The Seven Kingdoms are at war, a lot of good, suitable men died in it, let alone the dangers of travelling through the realm in order to reach the Vale... So what would we do? Wait! What a happy coincidence! The lord of Harrenhal and the Lord Paramount is right there, in the Vale! And he already ruled quite some time as Lord Protector of the Vale, so he knows how it's going there and the local lords know him as well! What a perfect match! So LF marries Sansa. As LF doesn't know that Rickon and Bran are alive and that Manderly has organized a rescue mission for Rickon, he still believes that Sansa is the rightful heiress of the North. Stannis and the Boltons will with a little bit of luck decimate each other and LF would easily win the North for Sansa with the intact forces of the Vale and with a living Stark. With Sansa, as they are married now, he can control a huge portion of the realm - the North thanks to Sansa, the Riverlands as he is the Lord Paramount of the Trident and the Vale because he is the Lord Protector there and rules in the name of the unborn heir whose he is step-father. With the united forces of the North, the Riverlands and the Vale, he can probably defeat the Lannisters and the Tyrells if he wanted to and maybe his ass could even become the ass that sits on the Iron Throne.

I know, a bit too long and a bit too complicated but I can imagine that LF plans to do something like that because I don't believe that he would give up on Sansa and give her to HTH as he (LF) is clearly attracted to her. After all, Sansa is a younger and more beautiful Catelyn look-alike. To me it's clear that LF wants Sansa for himself but at first he has to secure his and her position.

If you managed to read my essay to this point, thank you for your attention! :)

I've been thinking along the same lines - SR will die and it will be easily blamed on him being a sickly child. Before that happens Sansa's already married to HTH, who won't be a terrible guy, but also not the most sympathetic character either - just the average arrogant lord who strays. Once she gets with child, HTH meets with some hunting or tourney accident. As the mother of his child, LF secures the power over the Vale in blood ties.

But then his plans will stuff up with Rickon being found. Maybe by then Aegon or Dany secure the IT and give the power to Sansa rather than LF. But the biggest cinch for LF he knows nothing about it is Robb's will surfacing - because it barred Sansa from inheriting WF. LF bet on the wrong horse. Robb's will must come to bite back at LF, because he was the one who tipped Tywin off about the Tyrells trying to marry Sansa to the Tyrell heir and caused Sansa to end up being married with Tyrion. And it was the news of that marriage that prompted Robb to bar her from inheriting WF in a will. The will is the tale of the snake biting in its own tail (or in this case, LF).