Did Pycelle and Varys know....

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

....About the twincest and the real nature of Bob's children, the same way Petyr did?

Were they trying to be helpful to Ned Stark, or were they both trying to play with or mislead him to varying degrees?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

I would guess they both knew Pycelle is not as dotty as he plays and Varys has spies everywhere. Pycelle would not admit it to keep the status quo and Varys woud not trust Ned with the info from his own lips to not be implicated in any repercussions

[Lost Melnibonean]

....About the twincest and the real nature of Bob's children, the same way Petyr did?

Were they trying to be helpful to Ned Stark, or were they both trying to play with or mislead him to varying degrees?

Absolutely. I found the back and forth here, especially the input from Lady G, to be quiet helpful in understanding what was going in early Game...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104810-varys-the-ned-lf-too-um-and-cersei/

[Cashless Society]

Of course they did.

[zammey12]

Varys knows everything, so yeah. Pycelle probably knew, but tried to convince himself it wasn't true.

[Minuteman]

Varys for sure. Talking with Illyrio Mopatis he mentions that Ned is near finding the secret that Jon Arryn did, it was too soon, and if one Hand can die so can another. Varys wanted to reveal that Robert;s children were all bastards right as fAegon landed but he lost control of it. Pycelle probably knew but he was a Lannister stooge so would never have spoken about it.

[WolfgangII]

Exactly what Minuteman said.

[Lady Blackmont]

Both of them knew.

I've always wondered what house Lannister did for Pycelle, everyone but Tywin seems to shit on him.

[Howling Mad]

Both of them knew.

I've always wondered what house Lannister did for Pycelle, everyone but Tywin seems to shit on him.

I imagine that Tywin and House Lannister kept Robert from executing Pycelle after the sack of King's Landing. Such as an action would certainly earn you some loyalty. Why Robert allowed Varys and Pycelle to bend the knee and remain on the Small Council, let alone on KL, still needs to be explained.

[Lady Blackmont]

Pycelle urged Aery's to open the gates, indicating he was in bed with the Lannisters before the sack.

[falcotron]

I've always wondered what house Lannister did for Pycelle, everyone but Tywin seems to shit on him.

First, to Pycelle, Tywin basically is House Lannister. He doesn't support Cersei because she did something for him, but because he supports Tywin and Tywin supports Cersei.

As for what Tywin did for him: Remember that he believed (not without some justification) that Tywin was the only thing keeping the realm stable under the Mad King. He probably sees Tywin as being the main thing keeping the realm stable under the Useless Drunk King (even though Pycelle himself, not to mention Jon Arryn, probably has more to do with that than Tywin). He has plenty of reason to back Tywin even without any personal gain.

But I suspect it's thanks to Tywin that Pycelle came out of the Sack smelling like roses to all sides. The rebels didn't even think of replacing him on the council, while the Dornish don't have him on their list of people responsible for the murder. How many inner councilors make it through a coup unscathed, in any society? That's something to feel gratitude for.

And finally, he became complicit with Tywin in the Sack, and again in letting Jon die, and who knows what else. Switching sides would be politically and personally dangerous. It would also be a huge source of moral dissonance, because everything he's done would now be unjustified. Once you've killed for your side and come to accept it, it becomes a lot more unthinkable to question your side.

[Beorn Snow]

But I suspect it's thanks to Tywin that Pycelle came out of the Sack smelling like roses to all sides. The rebels didn't even think of replacing him on the council, while the Dornish don't have him on their list of people responsible for the murder. How many inner councilors make it through a coup unscathed, in any society? That's something to feel gratitude for.

If Varys had not assassinated him at the end of ADWD he would have been the ultimate survivor.

This guy also survived Summerhall. (Well Aegon probably didn´t want any maesters around while working on his dragon-voodoo but still). That´s one radical-reformer king, one unremarkable Jaeharys, one crazy Aerys, one drunken Bobby, one sadistic Joffrey and then childish Tommen. It´s pretty impressive.

[falcotron]

If Varys had not assassinated him at the end of ADWD he would have been the ultimate survivor.

This guy also survived Summerhall. (Well Aegon probably didn´t want any maesters around while working on his dragon-voodoo but still). That´s one radical-reformer king, one unremarkable Jaeharys, one crazy Aerys, one drunken Bobby, one sadistic Joffrey and then childish Tommen. It´s pretty impressive.

Great point.

GRRM has said he wants to write more stories in the same universe after he finishes the main series; the exploits of the valiant young Prince Ser Aerys and his buddy Tywin, as seen through the PoV of Pycelle, that could be fascinating.

[John Doe]

And he couldn't even play the weak old men card back then.

[Beorn Snow]

And he couldn't even play the weak old men card back then.

Being a maester sort of gives you some sort of "weak&wise" card I´d guess. Biggest threats to a GM are mad kings like Aerys and paranoid tyrants like Maegor. (But you are not really paranoid if they are out to get you of course ... if we believe that the maesters conspired against magic and dragons).

I´m sure that a conservative maester would find a king like Aegon problematic, if the king goes against the nobility, giving commoners more rights etc. (we don´t know however what reforms Aegon exactly wanted to do), but even if Aegon had been problematic he´s not exactly the type to execute a maester. Of the list of kings that Pycelle served, Aegon V, Jaeharys II, Aerys II, Robert I, Joffrey I and Tommen the only kings I think would have it in them to harm their Grand Maester would be Joffrey or Aerys.

That of course does not rule out someone trying to poison you, or in Pycelle´s case stab you, in order to remove your voice on the small council.

[Hugorfonics]

I imagine that Tywin and House Lannister kept Robert from executing Pycelle after the sack of King's Landing. Such as an action would certainly earn you some loyalty. Why Robert allowed Varys and Pycelle to bend the knee and remain on the Small Council, let alone on KL, still needs to be explained.

Not to mention Jaime, but adding his name to it makes it seem likely that the sack of winterfell saved all three... why tywin would save varys also hasnt been explained.

....About the twincest and the real nature of Bob's children, the same way Petyr did?

Were they trying to be helpful to Ned Stark, or were they both trying to play with or mislead him to varying degrees?

Yea they knew. Varys was helpful, Pycelle no even if he wanted to be.

"Your own ends. What ends are those, Lord Varys?"

"Peace," Varys replied without hesitation. "If there was one soul in King's Landing who was truly desperate to keep Robert Baratheon alive, it was me." He sighed. "For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"

"And what was Lord Arryn plotting?"

"He knew," Pycelle said. "About . . . about . . ."

"I know what he knew about," snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

[Shierak Qiya]

Varys knew. Pycelle did not. He would not have given that book to Ned if he suspected it. Pycelle is a Lannister supporter. He would have hidden that book from Ned.

[Selena]

The fact that they knew is the only reason that the charade was/is allowed to go on. Pycelle is loyal to House Lannister so he would not tell and most likely was the one that killed Jon Arryan because he WAS going to tell.

Vareys knows and WILL tell the world when it is best for his plans to do so (and I think Pycelle knew this which is one of the reasons Varys killed him)

[RoamingRonin]

Varys told Tyrion he knew:

"He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion."

"Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard's hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear." The eunuch's laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty.

"Someone like you, perchance?"

"Am I suspected? It was not me."

"If it had been, would you admit it?"

"No. But why should I betray a secret I have kept so long? It is one thing to deceive a king, and quite another to hide from the cricket in the rushes and the little bird in the chimney. Besides, the bastards were there for all to see."

[Arrow of the Morning]

I think Varys knew it. He have spies everywhere and for sure he discovered the incest. Pycelle could know too, but if he did he closed his mouth.