'Lemongate' and logic.

[Lord Wraith]

Oh for honour of lemons,there are bloody aligators in the Neck and everyone seems fine!

Ladies and gentlemen,I propose the theory that the Neck is not really in the North,but a swamp from somewhere near Volantis in a constant state of teleportation by the Cotf magic.

You meant Lizardlions :cool4: also the Shrouded Lord is way more powerful than I thought if he can do that.

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

You meant Lizardlions :cool4: also the Shrouded Lord is way more powerful than I thought if he can do that.

Lizardlions are basically alligators ^_^

Oh you have no idea how powerful.Also,he is Howland Reed,Azor Ahai,the Gravedigger and the Hooded Man.

[Lord Wraith]

Lizardlions are basically alligators ^_^

Oh you have no idea how powerful.Also,he is Howland Reed,Azor Ahai,the Gravedigger and the Hooded Man.

I know just failing at being funny. He is... wow teleportation is just a drop in the bucket them. :lol:

[ChillyPolly]

It is never once said lemon trees can't grow in Braavos.

It is explicitly said that lemon trees DON'T grow in Braavos (I don't know about CAN'T).

It is also said that lemons and citrus fruits cannot be found at several locations much further south.

It is also said that Braavos has an inhospitable climate even for its location, with a climate dominated by constant fog, rain, and freezing rain.

So if oranges and lemons don't grow in the Vale or on Crackclaw point, or the Riverlands, then I don't know why one would expect them to grow in Braavos.

It might be a discrepancy, or it might be intentional, pointing to some mystery or other. I don't know why anyone would be dogmatically opposed to the latter idea.

[ChillyPolly]

Oh for honour of lemons,there are bloody aligators in the Neck and everyone seems fine!

If the text had ever suggested that Lizard Lions (not "alligators" necessarily) CANNOT live that far north, we might have a discrepancy. But since nothing of the sort is ever said, there is no discrepancy.

[Lord Wraith]

If the text had ever suggested that Lizard Lions (not "alligators" necessarily) CANNOT live that far north, we might have a discrepancy. But since nothing of the sort is ever said, there is no discrepancy.

Also the swampy land around the neck was created by the failed magic of the Children of the Forest, so we can just say the Children did it.

[Mithras]

Where does it say that lemon trees do not grow in Braavos?

[Anythingatall]

Where does it say that lemon trees do not grow in Braavos?

In the Mercy chapter.

I am confused about the level of ridicule heaped upon the "lemongators" or whatever they call themselves. The foundation for their theories is solid, what they extrapolate from that foundation is, for me, a little bit far fetched but they have a point about the lemons. I don't understand the hate.

[Orphalesion]

I can see the sense behind it. Braavos is a freezing hellhole.

It could very well be that Dany, over the years conflated multiple memories of different childhood homes into one (we do hear that she and Viserys moved around a lot).

It does not mean the lemons grow in Dorne exclusively or that Dany spent part of her childhood there (perhaps Dorne just has an exclusive contract with the Crown to supply the Seven Kingdoms with citrus fruits)

That tree, imho, could had stood anywhere in Lys, Myr, Tyrosh, Volantis, or a smaller settlement they temporary lived in.

[A Bastard Snow]

In the Mercy chapter.

I am confused about the level of ridicule heaped upon the "lemongators" or whatever they call themselves. The foundation for their theories is solid, what they extrapolate from that foundation is, for me, a little bit far fetched but they have a point about the lemons. I don't understand the hate.

It doesn't say that.Again you can't use a quote from someone who has never been to a place before.The two guards have never been to Braavos therefore they are not a reliable source.

Why don't you go to Meereen and tell someone there is a 700 foot tall ice wall that is 300 miles long and they will call you a liar.

Unless you regularly visit the gardens of the rich and powerful you will make the baseless claim that trees don't grow simply because you don't see them.It doesn't make it true

[mormont]

Nobody is arguing that trees can't grow in temperate climates. But a subtropical tree growing in a temperate climate is an intentional discrepancy. George willingly admits when he's made a mistake, as in Jeyne's hips, Renly's eyes, and the transexual horse. Funny how he's never said a tree growing where it shouldn't grow is a mistake.

Unlike those other instances, though, AFAIK nobody has ever asked GRRM about this particular discrepancy. So, it's not that surprising that he's never said it was a mistake. He's never said anything about it.

This would be the point at which it would be sensible for someone to ask the author, wouldn't it?

[Anythingatall]

I can see the sense behind it. Braavos is a freezing shithole.

It could very well be that Dany, over the years conflated multiple memories of different childhood homes into one (we do hear that she and Viserys moved around a lot).

It does not mean the lemons grow in Dorne exclusively or that Dany spent part of her childhood there (perhaps Dorne just has an exclusive contract with the Crown to supply the Seven Kingdoms with citrus fruits)

That tree, imho, could had stood anywhere in Lys, Myr, Tyrosh, Volantis, or a smaller settlement they temporary lived in.

I like this.

The lemon tree/Braavos thing could be significant only in terms of Danys own character arc. Realising she had conflated her memories and what that means about her concept of 'home' could be quite significant in terms of her own personal goals... although I wouldn't like to speculate on what conclusions she may reach or how significant it will be.

[Anythingatall]

It doesn't say that.Again you can't use a quote from someone who has never been to a place before.The two guards have never been to Braavos therefore they are not a reliable source.

Why don't you go to Meereen and tell someone there is a 700 foot tall ice wall that is 300 miles long and they will call you a liar.

Unless you regularly visit the gardens of the rich and powerful you will make the baseless claim that trees don't grow simply because you don't see them.It doesn't make it true

I think you are missing the point. Of all the random chit chat that GRRM could have put in he chose this? You have one character talking about lemon trees in Braavos and then other characters talking about how there are no trees/lemons in Braavos. I think that it's completely reasonable to assume that this is more than coincidence.

The people who are so determined to rubbish this connection (for reasons I honestly can't understand) make far bigger assumptions than those who find it significant.

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

Oh no guys, Dany is trying to steal Jon's spotlight.

Someone stop her!

[Eurybia]

I live in England and have a kumquat tree. OK, so its in a pot but it is growing :)

Apparently citrus trees can grow in temperate climates as long as it stays above 10°c. You may not get any decent fruit, but the tree itself will grow.

I actually sort of assume that is exactly it: it's a small, potted lemon tree. Lemons don't grow in Braavos, but they do grow in Dorne. Maybe Oberyn brought it as a gift to the Sea Lord, or even to Dany and Viserys. Silly gift, maybe, but it isn't like there was no connection between Dorne and Braavos. We don't know how long it lived or if it was a healthy lemon tree.

[Lion of Lorath]

Like GRRM admitting that he doesn't know much about agriculture?Case in point the Arbor growing grapes when the climate wouldn't allow it.Or GRRM admitting that he realized after GoT was published that Braavos was too far north so he could either teleport it 1000 miles south or just leave it.He meant for Braavos to have a Mediterranean climate iirc then realized that it was too far north for that so he uses his omnipotent god powers to grow lemon trees in Braavos.

I can only assume that despite its northern location, Braavos experiences warm chinook-like winds over the relatively flat lands of Andalos. Also, that there is likely a warm current that hugs the Essos coast and is ridden by Braavosi sailors.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

And to address the next irrelevant point you'll bring up: Yes, it's technically possible that the house with the red door and the lemon tree and the grass Dany remembers running through are all inside some giant climate-controlled bio-dome in the Sealord's garden. It's not even remotely likely, but yes, it is technically possible.

Well when you put it in terms of a bizarre scenario for what's going on then sure a bio dome in Bravos is unlikely. Even with that least likely of scenarios it still makes more sense and is more likely than the Dany in Dorne implications a lot of people conclude from the lemon problem.

[ChillyPolly]

Unlike those other instances, though, AFAIK nobody has ever asked GRRM about this particular discrepancy. So, it's not that surprising that he's never said it was a mistake. He's never said anything about it.

This would be the point at which it would be sensible for someone to ask the author, wouldn't it?

(1) Yes, he did say something about it. He wrote what he wrote in the text of the book. Of course, if he ever admits that what he wrote in the book was an error in this instance, you will have some counter-evidence.

(2) Sure. Go ask him. See if you can get him to say what you want him to say. If he tells you this is an error, then you will actually have a real argument.

[hallam]

It doesn't say that.Again you can't use a quote from someone who has never been to a place before.The two guards have never been to Braavos therefore they are not a reliable source.

I am pretty sure that the fact GRRM is reminding readers of the fact is because there is going to be a reveal connected to the appearance of a singular lemon tree.

Glasshouses with oranges growing in them are a common feature of English stately homes.

Obviously the point is significant. But equally obviously there is exactly one house with a lemon tree in Braavos and this is going to become important. Since Arya is the only character in Braavos and none of the others seem likely to visit, and we are told Syrio Forell was first sword of Braavos, it seems rather likely that Arya will meet up with the first sealord.

The lemon tree thus joins Dorne, Arya and Danny. Perfectly logical, no -gate involved.

In general, if a character makes a sweeping generalization, expect an example that contradicts. So 'all the horses have gone' does not necessarily mean every single horse is gone and there are exactly zero and 'there are no trees' does not mean there are absolutely no trees, just that any that are found will be really significant and important.

[Orphalesion]

I still say it is a bit of a stretch to say that the only lemon trees in the Known World grow in Dorne. Last time I visited Europe they got most of their southern fruits from israel. That doesn't mean that mangoes and bananas grow exclusively in Israel, just that Israel is the most convenient source for them in Europe.

The same I think is true with lemons, Dorne, and the Seven Kingdoms. There's imho no reason to think that Lemon trees don't grow in the southern Free Cities, Quarth, Yi-Ti etc.

There could even be lemons in the Stormlands and the Reach (for some reason i imagined Highgarden having orange trees, but that's something else entirely)

It might just be that Dorne supplies the Seven Kingdoms with lemons because 1) as a domestic product they'd likely be cheaper than getting them from Lys or Myr and 2) They might have a reputation of being especially good and juicy. "Lemons from Dorne" might be on the same level as Arbour red as a symbol of status and opulence. Lemons from the Stormlands are small and hard, because they don't get enough sun, Lemons from the Reach are less juicy and most of them go directly to Highgarden and other wealthy reach houses.