Starks + Others = Kings of Winter?

[sarah.jenice]

It all depends how ominous is ominous, or rather whether the "Others" are really as black (or white) as they're painted.

I just find it so hard to decide. I want the Starks to live on and be happy, but I like all of your thoughts, especially about things not being so black/white good/evil. Your opinions are always very interesting to read.

I can't decide on what I think their motives are exactly, but it's clear that they have motives. No one watches a kid's entire life unless they want him badly.

[kissdbyfire]

I always thought the Boltons' habit of wearing other people's skins was them trying, and failing, to emulate the Starks.

That's how I've always seen the Boltons as well. Well, Roose spefically, as Ramsay is more of a creepy sadisct bastard.

Every time Roose's character appears I can't help but think of 'Buffalo Bill, the character from 'The Silence of the Lambs'.

I wish I knew more about the Boltons history. Only thing I've found so far is that they bent the knee to the Starks 1,000 years ago.

[Lord Damian]

This makes me think of Coldhands. I believe Coldhands is Benjen Stark. Perhaps he was killed by the others but cannot be converted in spirit by the others due to his Stark Blood. He is really a white walker except he is still a good guy.

[Black Crow]

Maybe the Boltons envied the Starks skinchanging abilities... just saying

Or, as I suggested on another thread, if you put it into its context as the act of a rebel Bolton. It could well have been a case of "#@$& you, skinchanger, I can do it too and see how you like it!"

[Lady of Long Lake]

That's how I've always seen the Boltons as well. Well, Roose spefically, as Ramsay is more of a creepy sadisct bastard.

Every time Roose's character appears I can't help but think of 'Buffalo Bill, the character from 'The Silence of the Lambs'.

I wish I knew more about the Boltons history. Only thing I've found so far is that they bent the knee to the Starks 1,000 years ago.

I didn't realize it till I wiki'd House Bolton that they were the Starks mortal enemies for 11,000 years! What the heck?! How could they be skinning the King's kin for 11k years and not be eradicated? The Boltons have no strong allies with other northern lords. Why haven't the Starks, Manderlys, Umbers, Reeds, Glovers, Mormonts, hill clans dealt with them properly?

[Sister Goldenhair]

This makes me think of Coldhands. I believe Coldhands is Benjen Stark. Perhaps he was killed by the others but cannot be converted in spirit by the others due to his Stark Blood. He is really a white walker except he is still a good guy.

Other Whites can get through the Gate (the ones that attacked Castle Black) so I don't think he was part of the Night's Watch ever or he was struck from the Watch so he may be really much older as the 13th Lord Commander.

[Night's Scotch]

It all depends how ominous is ominous, or rather whether the "Others" are really as black (or white) as they're painted.

I'm inclined to believe they're an evil force. Our first glimpse of them in the prologue from Game of Thrones is one attacking and killing men of the Night's Watch and scaring one so badly he'd rather face death for desertion than standing against them. Every scene they're in drips with malevolence, and they're feared by Wildlings (who are a sort of bogeyman themselves) and those south of the wall alike. Even Children of the Forest fear them enough to ward their caves so that Others and wights can't enter. I can't see that they are anything but evil in this story. They seem to be the growing menace that's being largely ignored and allowed to fester by the war and dissension in the 7 Kingdoms. Most of humanity is too busy fighting over who should be king.

[Sister Goldenhair]

I'm inclined to believe they're an evil force. Our first glimpse of them in the prologue from Game of Thrones is one attacking and killing men of the Night's Watch and scaring one so badly he'd rather face death for desertion than standing against them. Every scene they're in drips with malevolence, and they're feared by Wildlings (who are a sort of bogeyman themselves) and those south of the wall alike. Even Children of the Forest fear them enough to ward their caves so that Others and wights can't enter. I can't see that they are anything but evil in this story. They seem to be the growing menace that's being largely ignored and allowed to fester by the war and dissension in the 7 Kingdoms. Most of humanity is too busy fighting over who should be king.

Somewhere I've read the theory that the Children of the Forest can ward against them because they created them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Other Whites can get through the Gate (the ones that attacked Castle Black) so I don't think he was part of the Night's Watch ever or he was struck from the Watch so he may be really much older as the 13th Lord Commander.

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but the Nightfort gate isn't the same as Castle Black's gate; it's older and arguably more, for lack of a better word, "magical." And the wights who attacked Mormont were brought into the castle by other Night's Watch men; they didn't get through on their own.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I didn't realize it till I wiki'd House Bolton that they were the Starks mortal enemies for 11,000 years! What the heck?! How could they be skinning the King's kin for 11k years and not be eradicated? The Boltons have no strong allies with other northern lords. Why haven't the Starks, Manderlys, Umbers, Reeds, Glovers, Mormonts, hill clans dealt with them properly?

We don't know much about the politics of the North before the Starks brought it all under their rule. Apparently there was also a "sawmp king" who ruled the Bogmen until the Starks marched South and conquered them.

Perhaps the Boltons had vassal houses thousands of years ago that have since declined. Perhaps for thousands of years they ruled an area almost as large as the Starks'. All we know is that they were first enemies, then they bent the knee, then they rose up again a few centuries later, then they were seemingly loyal until Roose and Ramsay showed up.

[Black Crow]

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but the Nightfort gate isn't the same as Castle Black's gate; it's older and arguably more, for lack of a better word, "magical." And the wights who attacked Mormont were brought into the castle by other Night's Watch men; they didn't get through on their own.

They also used to be Nights Watch men themselves...

[Sister Goldenhair]

that's why I find it odd if Cold Hands is Benjen that he cannot cross over but your idea about different gates may be the answer but fairly esoteric (although other stuff is too). I believe Cold Hands will be a surprise to us and right now Benjen would not be. Someone as old as Bloodraven? Someone Bloodraven has resurrected as a White or who has always been a White (at least for 100's of years). I kind of want it to be Ned Stark but even with magic don't see how that could be possible, but it would put all of the Starks eventually on the side of the old Gods, etc.

[kissdbyfire]

that's why I find it odd if Cold Hands is Benjen that he cannot cross over but your idea about different gates may be the answer but fairly esoteric (although other stuff is too). I believe Cold Hands will be a surprise to us and right now Benjen would not be. Someone as old as Bloodraven? Someone Bloodraven has resurrected as a White or who has always been a White (at least for 100's of years). I kind of want it to be Ned Stark but even with magic don't see how that could be possible, but it would put all of the Starks eventually on the side of the old Gods, etc.

There's something that CH says to Bran at some point that goes more or less like this (paraphrasing):

Bran: You are a monster.

CH: Yes, Bran, I am your monster

I find that intriguing... :-)

[bloocanary]

Here's my personal theory, and I'm hoping you guys can shed some light on whether I'm being consistent with the books; I can't remember all of the mythology/history that George has delved into so far. The main thing I'm foggy on is Stark family history...were they around before the Others and where did they come from/who did they descend from?

I personally think that the Others ARE Starks, albeit dead ones. The resurrected bodies we've seen beyond the wall have been wights thus far, so what makes an Other as opposed to a wight? I'm thinking there's something about the Starks that will cause them to become Others when they die rather than regular wights. Maybe an old curse or a failed attempt at achieving immortality by a Stark ancestor, or perhaps just something in their bloodline (maybe the same thing that allows them to become wargs)?

I think that at some point in the Stark family history, a rather Ned-like character became very upset upon discovering that his family members became ruthless ice zombies upon their deaths and took it upon himself to distance the Stark name from that legacy. Putting up the wall, establishing the watch, entombing any dead bodies down in the dungeons of Winterfell with swords over their graves to "keep any restless spirits from wandering", not to mention taking care to destroy any mention in the family history of the Stark connection to the Walkers. There's already evidence that there's been a cover-up regarding the Stark family's supernatural tendencies in that they're wargs (which is obviously a hereditary thing), yet there's virtually no mention of it in any of the stories Bran likes to hear so much. He loves to hear about scary things and monsters; you'd think at some point Nan would tell him about his crazy wolfman ancestors if it was mentioned anywhere in the family history.

I also think Coldhands is Benjen, which explains why he's helping Bran out instead of terrorizing the North with the other Others. He's still relatively "fresh" and therefore retains some of his humanity. The wights retain some memory of their former lives (as Jon observes early on after killing the two wights when he's a steward), but Others are a "higher" form of wight in that they're more intelligent and more "human". However, the older Others have been dormant for a very very long time; perhaps they've either lost all of their humanity and are now just bloodthirsty monsters like the wights (albeit more powerful), or the Starks they once were weren't exactly great people to begin with.

As for Jon, he doesn't need silly old Melisandre to magic him back to life. He's got Other blood in him, so he'll come back regardless. And, if we're all correct in assuming that he's the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he's got the blood of the dragon in him as well. So I guess you could say he's got both ice AND fire in his blood, which seems like it could be significant for some reason or another. :)

Of course, I need to go back and read the books because I'm probably forgetting some major point that completely disproves the tealdeer I've just typed up.

[Sister Goldenhair]

There's something that CH says to Bran at some point that goes more or less like this (paraphrasing):

Bran: You are a monster.

CH: Yes, Bran, I am your monster

I find that intriguing... :-)

Probably a big clue but can't figure it out.

[corbon]

so what makes an Other as opposed to a wight?

Well see a mummy Other and a daddy Other ... and then: :smoking:

Wights are reanimated dead, mostly humans, but also sometimes animals.

Others are something very different.

They have their own language, apparently a sense of humour, armour and weapons of exotic make and melt into a puddle when stabbed by dragonglass.

The most apt description so far is a separate race of ice-demons.

One old wildling women believes the others are made from humans. But the chance she knows anything concrete is virtually zero. I am certain she has simply created that belief to make herself and her fellow wives feel better about the way they sacrifice their sons to the Others. Its not so bad if the sons become the others.

But really, what are the chances that the others take tiny human babies and turnthe into tall, gaunt humanoids. Its possible there is a spirit transfer into a magical body or something, but the chances that the old woman actually witnessed anything like that are practically negligible.

No, the Others almost certainly are a separate magical race attuned to ice.

They are not human and not associated with humans.

They are not dead Starks (assuming the history we are given is correct), since the Stark House was founded by Bran the Builder who built the wall to keep out the Others.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Bloocanary, I am completely with the spirit of your theory, if not the details.

I think that there's some deep, intrinsic connection between the Starks and the Others/COTF. I'm beginning to suspect that the real Others are actually the Children and the White Walkers are their creation (I know I know, Black Crow has been saying it for ages...I just took a while to bite :drunk:) , or the result of a pact between the Children and first Stark. There are two possibilities here:

1. Bran the Builder (BB henceforth) is the Last Hero who set out during the first Long Winter to find the Children. He found them and formed an alliance with them, which included a marriage pact, whereupon he took a Child as wife and founded the Stark line.

2. The more intriguing prospect, which i'm leaning towards now upon reread: The Last Hero is BB's progenitor. He found the Children and formed the same alliance but his son is BB. Reason I think this/evidence: Cat in one of her CoK POV's thinks about how the original Storm's End was a castle that couldn't stand up to the storms buffetting it, and had to be rebuilt several times. But then, some say, a "child" rebuilt it to its current shape and with magical fortification, and that child was BB. I think "child" was literalized over the ages and that the child was a Child as in COTF, or a person who looked like one, as a half COTF person would be very small. (we suspect interbreeding between men and COTF is the reason for the Reeds' short stature, also see Ghost of High Heart)

Also, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" has something to do with the above hypothesized pact. I think this is a term of agreement with the COTF because there's something down in the crypts that needs to be guarded.

So anyway, either scenario 1 or 2 occurs. Either way, BB builds winterfell where he finds the COTF, and starts the NW. I think that original NW was very VERY different from the one that reformed after the Andal invasion, and that the original purpose and nature of that organization are hidden somewhere in the story of the Night's King who according to current folklore:

1. Took an "Other" to wife

2. bound the NW to him by sorcery

3. sacrificed to the Others

4. was defeated by the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun

5. Had his name struck from the records because he was sacrficing to the Others

The above points are probably a garbled mix of truth and distortion. I'm completely going crackpot now because I don't have a lot of evidence to back up what I think is truth and what distortion, but this is just what feels right to me: The NW, per the agreement between BB and the COTF, is supposed to sacrifice to the "Others" aka COTF (as in give them children to become WW, ala Craster) , and it's plausible that there will occasionally be instances of more intermarriage between Stark and COTF to strenghten and maintain the blood ties and alliance. The Watch itself is supposed to keep the North safe from invading forces that threathen the well-being of both COTF and First Men/Starks. In return for the protection from invaders, the Children use their magic to make sure the First Men are also safe, and the Stark line in particular, is protected. However, the Andals do successfully invade, and the Stark in Winterfell at the time is a total ass and decides to turn over their institutions to them by overthrowing the NW (and Night's King) and allowing the Andal power to destroy the previous records of the watch (hence, expunging the NK). This correlates with Sam finding the oldest records of Lord Commanders to show only the last 667 of them. He's about to say something about what that implies until Jon cuts him off. I think he may have been trying to say that that means they only go back as far as the first Andals, a significant point.

Aslo, Coldhands is the NK. These events, if true to any extent, would clearly have dismayed/pissed off the Children, who have been waiting millenia for our current Bran to show up and help rectify this crap. Makes sense that they would have tried to intervene to some extent during the NK fiasco, maybe saving the 13th Lord Commander the best they could, and then using him to bring Bran.

Somehow, the WW are part of the original plan of the Wall. They are the sacrifices that the NW has been making for the defense of the North, with the knowledge and blessing of the first Starks. The Starks are wargs and skinchangers because of their COTF heritage. Also, anyone notice how in GoT Bran is compared to a squirrel often, and the COTF are squirrel people because of their habitation in trees (which probably entails climbing)? I just thought that was interesting. Squirrel imagery is used later too, and Bran thinks in the cave of the Children that he's eating squirrel stew, which made me think the COTF cannabalize their dead what with all the bones lying aroudn (why not, meat's meat, why waste it)

Final though, I know this post is long as hell! Sorry! How the hell did Bloodraven just waltz off the wall without anyone saying a single word? He's still dressed in his black and everything! Does this not mean that he is a turncloak to the current NW establishment? And if so, doesn't that mean we should be questioning his apparent motives. Once again there are several possibilities:

1. He's evil and he's taking Bran for a ride (I doubt this very much)

2. He knows what the true purpose of the wall and NW is and he's working right now towards that original goal. He either sees himself as still loyal to that purpose, or doesn't care that he broke his vows the the current NW because it's a hijacked institution.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Oh, another thought which corroborates the Craster theories people have been throwing around: I think when Jon is with the Wildlings and he mentions Craster, they tell him that Craster isn't a real wilding, he's more like one of his kind. I brushed this off at first to mean that Craster sacrificing to the Others instead of fighting makes him a kneeler in their eyes, but could it be more than that?

More like Jon's kind? As in the Starks who also once gave up children to be WW? The Wildlings being opposed to this also makes sense if you take the story of Joramun helping to bring down the NK at face value.

@corbon: we have absolutely no idea why BB built the Wall. That was 8000 years ago, clearly there's very little we actually know. And how does believing that your baby was turned into a cold, murderous white walker instead of finding peace in death, make the loss easier? I see this argument everywhere when people are trying to make Craster's wives seem like idiots, and it just baffles me.

[Lady of Long Lake]

4) "Drink blood from polished horns"; the greenseers eat a weirwood paste that is as red as blood and might even contain blood. For that matter, this story might come from the old human sacrifices that followers of the Old Gods practiced (rather ironic, since the Starks also follow the Old Gods and presumably also sacrificed people, but there's no indication that the Northmen advertise that fact). (And who knows, it's possible that the Hornfoot men or the ice river clans have some ritual that involves ceremonially drinking animal blood.)

I know Bran saw a vision in ADWD of a captive prisoner being slain at a heart tree many centuries ago. Are there other human sacrifices at weirwood trees that were mentioned? I haven't read the side books though- the hedge knight ones.

Wouldn't a " human sacrifice" have to be an innocent person's life? Edric Storm for example, when Melisandre had him in her cross-hairs because she wanted to give some King's blood to her God. He was an innocent so his life would be a sacrifice if the world lost him.

[FanTasy]

I know Bran saw a vision in ADWD of a captive prisoner being slain at a heart tree many centuries ago. Are there other human sacrifices at weirwood trees that were mentioned? I haven't read the side books though- the hedge knight ones.

There is something not all too cuddly about the weirwoods, in my opinion.

Apart from the incident of the sacrifice Bran saw:

-didn't they hang the entrails of the slain in the weirwood at White Harbor

-at one of the ranging parties there were bones found in the mouth gap of one of the weirwoods, this could be just a burial ofcourse

-the repeated mentioning of the color and the form of the leaves: 'blooded hands'

-the repeated mentioning of sap leaking, looking like blood

-the repeated mentioning of how the expression was on the faces that were cut into the trees, in my recollection there never was mentioning a benign or friendly face but repeatedly that the face was nasty or threatening

These are things I read in ASOIAF - haven't read the short stories yet