The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Kings of Westeros Coins [Set of 3]
Game of Thrones Kings of Westeros Coins [Set of 3]
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

[Book spoilers] The Others and other things that don't add up


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#1 whitefinch

whitefinch

    monsterful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,234 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:29 AM

New episode, new riddles /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

We were shown Mormont knew Craster was giving children away to the Others. For years. Why did he not tell Eddard Stark? Why was the deserter we've seen beheaded in season 1 called "a madman"?

Bran "Old Nan used to tell me stories". Did she die? That is not a mistake pin intself, but my heartache is grevious.

What do you think? Were there more such things?

#2 Raylan Stark

Raylan Stark

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 67 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:14 AM

The actress who played Old Nan passed away so I'm guessing they're just quietly letting the character slip away.

Mormont knew Craster was sacrificing his sons to his "gods." I'm not sure anyone knows it's the Others he's giving them to.

#3 Mulled Wino

Mulled Wino

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,350 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:26 AM

New episode, new riddles /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

We were shown Mormont knew Craster was giving children away to the Others. For years. Why did he not tell Eddard Stark? Why was the deserter we've seen beheaded in season 1 called "a madman"?

Bran "Old Nan used to tell me stories". Did she die? That is not a mistake pin intself, but my heartache is grevious.

What do you think? Were there more such things?


The Watch couldn't afford to ruin the relationship they've cultivated with Craster over the years. The guy was playing all sides, but all sides needed him. I'm sure the watch suspected it was Other, but wasn't 100% sure.

#4 Xtopher

Xtopher

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

Mormont knows its an Other. Jon tells him that he saw a "thing" taking the baby and Mormont says "whatever it was, im sure you´ll see it again" so definitely Mormont knows its not a "god offering", its an offering to the Others.

#5 Xtopher

Xtopher

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:33 AM

@Free Shadow:

What is Arya suposed to be doing in that GIF Avatar of yours? just wondering.

#6 Thorny Issues

Thorny Issues

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:34 AM

New episode, new riddles /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

We were shown Mormont knew Craster was giving children away to the Others. For years. Why did he not tell Eddard Stark? Why was the deserter we've seen beheaded in season 1 called "a madman"?


He doesn't say that he knew about Craster sacrificing to the Others for years. Its just as likely that he knew Craster killed his boys (by exposing/sacrificing them). Now he knows about the Others' return, he puts two and two together...

#7 kungtotte

kungtotte

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,518 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:34 AM

Yeah, they knew something was very wrong, but it's not their place to go snooping around so they just looked the other way.

ETA
That avatar is from the first episode of season one, where the King and Queen arrive to Winterfell. Arya put on the helmet so she could sneak into the crowds to watch them. The gif is when she's pushing through the crowds.

Edited by kungtotte, 16 April 2012 - 11:36 AM.


#8 Greywolf2375

Greywolf2375

    HIGHLY INTELLIGENT LIBRARIAN

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,722 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:38 AM

New episode, new riddles /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

We were shown Mormont knew Craster was giving children away to the Others. For years. Why did he not tell Eddard Stark? Why was the deserter we've seen beheaded in season 1 called "a madman"?

Bran "Old Nan used to tell me stories". Did she die? That is not a mistake pin intself, but my heartache is grevious.

What do you think? Were there more such things?

Why would he tell Stark? Or anyone? What happens North of the wall stays North of the Wall - as he said to Jon, many NH brothers owe Craster their lives for being able to use his house as a stopping over point

@Free Shadow:

What is Arya suposed to be doing in that GIF Avatar of yours? just wondering.

It is from the introduction to Arya in S1 when the Robert is approaching Winterfell.

#9 Tourniquet

Tourniquet

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 462 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

Mormont doesn't answer to Stark, a deserter is a deserter even if they saw a wight/Other

#10 chris999

chris999

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 694 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:53 AM

It is just the age old problem of adapting huge books into movies. We just have to learn to deal with it, because it is better than not having this amazing TV show.

Sometimes you just have to let it go, and enjoy the show.

#11 whitefinch

whitefinch

    monsterful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,234 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:57 AM

Mormont knows its an Other. Jon tells him that he saw a "thing" taking the baby and Mormont says "whatever it was, im sure you´ll see it again" so definitely Mormont knows its not a "god offering", its an offering to the Others.


This. Very much so.

The actress who played Old Nan passed away so I'm guessing they're just quietly letting the character slip away.


Oh, I did not know that. I'm really sorry.

Why would he tell Stark? Or anyone? What happens North of the wall stays North of the Wall - as he said to Jon, many NH brothers owe Craster their lives for being able to use his house as a stopping over point


Well, why he would make out the deserter to be "a madman"? And it seemed that he was eager to inform the realm about the wights, ask for help, so why not inform Ned Stark, that in his very neighbourhood the White Walkers are walking? /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#12 Xtopher

Xtopher

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:04 PM

ETA
That avatar is from the first episode of season one, where the King and Queen arrive to Winterfell. Arya put on the helmet so she could sneak into the crowds to watch them. The gif is when she's pushing through the crowds.


Arya appears to be grabbing something from that person´s back. i thought maight something odd he caught from the show. nvm.

#13 Iron Captain

Iron Captain

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 198 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:27 PM

I'm not sold on Mormont knowing it was an Other, specifically. I just rewatched the scene on HBOgo to be sure, but Jon talked about how Craster was murdering his Children, and Mormont knew that they were sacrifices to 'crueler gods'. I think Mormont didn't know exactly what Craster did to his sons, and didn't want to know.

Until Jon said "I saw...something" the entire conversation was geared towards them (Mormont specifically) talking as if he kids were being murdered, by Craster or otherwise; there was no mention of anything possibly being Others. Now that Mormont knows that the White Walkers have returned, I don't think there is any way he would stand for Craster offering his sons to them, if he knew specifically that was happening.

#14 Ferrum Aeternum

Ferrum Aeternum

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,121 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

The actress who played Old Nan passed away so I'm guessing they're just quietly letting the character slip away.


In fact, D&D confirmed in a recent interview that out of respect for Margaret John, they had made the decision that the character had passed away as well for the purposes of the series, so Bran's use of past tense wasn't a continuity error from the show's perspective.

#15 Crown

Crown

    just another soldier on a road to nowhere

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,700 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:15 PM

I didn't know about Old Nan's actress, but honestly, her series character has a better faith than the one in the books.

#16 Morrigan

Morrigan

    Crone of War

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,101 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:21 PM

In fact, D&D confirmed in a recent interview that out of respect for Margaret John, they had made the decision that the character had passed away as well for the purposes of the series, so Bran's use of past tense wasn't a continuity error from the show's perspective.

Awwww. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' /> Well, I can understand that, but I'll miss Old Nan. <3

#17 Tadco26

Tadco26

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:30 PM

This is the way it happened in the books:

Jon says:

"He gives his sons to the wood."
A long silence. Then: "Yes." And "Yes," the raven muttered, strutting. "Yes, yes, yes"
"You knew?"
"Smallwood told me. Long ago. All the rangers know, though few will talk of it."
"Did my uncle know?"
"All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be."
The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."
His wives must offer different prayers, Jon thought.
"How is it you came to know this?" the Old Bear asked him. "From one of Craster's wives?"
"Yes, my lord," Jon confessed. "I would sooner not tell you which. She was frightened and wanted help."
"The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I'd name it "Answered Prayer" and make an end."
Yes. Jon thought of Gilly. She and her sisters. They were nineteen, and Craster was one, but...
"Yet it would be an ill day for us if Craster died. Your uncle could tell you of the times Craster's Keep made the difference between life and death for our rangers."
"My father..." He hesitated.
"Go on Jon. Say what you would say."
"My father once told me that some men are not worth having," Jon finished. "A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself."
"Craster is his own man. He has sworn no vows. Nor is he the subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night's Watch has other wars to fight."


The book version definitely didn't say that the ranger's knew why Craster was sacrificing to the woods. But Gilly did give more specific hints than Mormont did. She told Jon:

"The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows."
And suddenly Jon was back in the Lord Commander's Tower again. A severed hand was climbing his calf and when he pried it off with the point of his longsword, it lay writhing, fingers opening and closing. The dead man rose to his feet, blue eyes shining in the gashed and swollen face. Ropes of torn flesh hung from the great wound in his belly, yet there was no blood.
"What color are their eyes?" he asked her.
"Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold."
She has seen them, he thought. Craster lied.


It's pretty clear that they were all surprised when the wight attacked Jon and Mormont in the Lord Commander's tower. So it seems most likely that they just thought Craster was killing the babies himself or the elements and animals were killing them as part of a sacrifice, rather than giving them to the Others.

Edited by Tadco26, 16 April 2012 - 03:31 PM.


#18 DannySpud

DannySpud

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 205 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:44 PM

I really don't think that Mormont knows Craster was sacrificing to the Others. Mormont doesn't know they are back, and wouldn't let Craster strengthen them if he did. He probably just thinks that Craster believes the sacrifices bring him luck and safety and that at worst he's giving them to wildlings.

#19 whitefinch

whitefinch

    monsterful

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,234 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

I really don't think that Mormont knows Craster was sacrificing to the Others. Mormont doesn't know they are back, and wouldn't let Craster strengthen them if he did. He probably just thinks that Craster believes the sacrifices bring him luck and safety and that at worst he's giving them to wildlings.


How do you all explain Mormont's "Whatever you saw, you'll see it again" and understanding between him and Jon?

Edited by A Free Shadow, 16 April 2012 - 04:48 PM.


#20 Dr. Pepper

Dr. Pepper

    ice queen

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,234 posts

Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:05 PM

I was disappointed that they didn't have Ghost come to help Jon. I have no idea how CGI works so maybe it's prohibitively expensive to use more than one CGI animal in every show. But it certainly was odd and felt like a plot hole.