Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[kg1982]

I think what you are saying is wrong.

cuz first of all jon is a good leader and the incident of what happens with the knives.... well that what happens when idiots feel there way of life is threatened

and they react irrationally but like many in this forum have tried to point out there may be conspiracy theories regarding the whole knives incident.

On the other note regarding mance's retrieval of arya, jon should have asked exactly what was mance's plan.!

And watching out for threats and easing the concerns of those that may be threatened is something that a leader might not have to do. There are also quite a few legit reasons as to why the Night's Watch might not have been high on Jon as their leader by the time the knifing incident came - (Hardhome??). There is a building tension that explodes in the last chapter that causes someone as cautious as Marsh and company to take action.

[Fire Eater]

Butterbumps thank you for the great review. There is so much to look at in this chapter, so here are just some of my thoughts

Dany and the Usurper

I was amazed by how much Dany is resembling Robert Baratheon in this chapter. Is ironic that 2 characters that hated his guts (Cercei and Dany) started to resemble him in more ways than one once they gained power.

What drove me to draw this parallel is that with this chapter I came to a realization of something that had been on my mind for a while now- Just like Robert, Dany does not want to rule. I think she expressed it as much with this line:

This thought is beyond escapism or wishful thinking. What surprised me is that when Xaro offered her the 13 ships to sail to Westeros she refused. This was clearly a way out and she didn’t take it and now she’s thinking she would give up the crown, but nor for her seven kingdoms, but for Daario.

What Dany wants is some sort of resemblance of home, which Daario represents at the moment and that even if she doesn’t admit it to herself, Westeros simply isn’t.

We are faced with the recurrent theme in Robert’s story, conquering and ruling are 2 different things. Just later on the same chapter we find out that it’s been a while since she held court (again, like Robert) and even when she does is only after Daario told her to.

Dany strike me as the sort of person that lives too much in the future (not in a good way) and in what if scenarios, like Robert. In the first case, she is waiting to hold court again until she marries Hizdahr and there is peace. When looking at all the siege machinery the Yunkai are building up she desperately muses: Hizdahr will bring me peace. He must.

This along with her decision to withhold holding court shows that she’s sort of in a state of complete stagnation waiting for this “peace” and not doing much anything. This sort of attitude speaks of a person that thinks that there is no point in acting now if there is a chance that we can wait until the problem is solved and start anew.

Like Robert, she is hiding in her own way behind what if scenarios. Robert excused his failures as a king in Lyannas’s death. He rationalized that he would have done a better job had Lyanna and not Cercei had been his wife (just to clarify, am not arguing this would have been the case). Dany, we see, is starting to rationalize her own failures behind:

Later she gazes longingly at the Westerosi and thinks

Her attitude here is very similar with her attitude involving the prophecies. The same way she uses prophecy as an excuse when something bad happens instead of analyzing how could her actions brought the misfortune upon her, she is now using the same principle to excuse her failures as a queen. Instead of analyzing what is causing her to fail in Meereen like lack of preparation and such she is adopting a posture that seems to say I am failing but is because these are not my people not because anything am doing wrong.

I'd like to add that Robert also had escapist feelings, telling Ned that he would rather put away the crown and go across the Narrow Sea to be a sellsword in the Free Cities. The only thing that stopped Robert from doing so was the thought of the disaster that would follow.

Dany, like Robert, doesn't want to stay as Queen of Meereen but sail across the Narrow Sea to Westeros, but what prevents her from leaving Meereen to go to Westeros to reclaim her family's throne is the thought of leaving Meereen to a fate like Astapor.

Dany thought "Dothraki could conquer kingdoms, but they could not rule them" in ASoS; the same can be said for dragons which Dany thinks of herself as. Meereen and any other state can be conquered from atop dragons, but they can't be ruled from them. Maester Aemon knew this when he told his younger brother, Aegon V: "It takes a man to rule."

Dany, from ACoK to ASoS has thought that it takes a dragon to rule as she has been told be Jorah Mormont. Jon, OTOH, thinks of himself as a man, and Jeor Mormont told Jon that it takes a man to wield Longclaw, and Jon knows it takes a man to run the Night's Watch.

[Harlaw's Book]

For me this Dany chapter reeks of her giving up. What has she been doing since the last chapter other than spending time with Daario? She's not holding court. I doubt she has spent much time in the camps since the last chapter. She is not working on internal relations or educating herself. She has completely withdrawn into her fantasies --some more true than others.

Comparing/contrasting Dany and Jon's attempts at escapism, I think Dany is more successful at it because she still has optimism. She thinks she will get the house with the red door. If the Meerenese aren't her true people, the Westeroi will be. And so on. Jon's attitude, on the other hand, is more things are as good as they're going to get, and they'll only get worse.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

For me this Dany chapter reeks of her giving up. What has she been doing since the last chapter other than spending time with Daario? She's not holding court. I doubt she has spent much time in the camps since the last chapter. She is not working on internal relations or educating herself. She has completely withdrawn into her fantasies --some more true than others.

Comparing/contrasting Dany and Jon's attempts at escapism, I think Dany is more successful at it because she still has optimism. She thinks she will get the house with the red door. If the Meerenese aren't her true people, the Westeroi will be. And so on. Jon's attitude, on the other hand, is more things are as good as they're going to get, and they'll only get worse.

Jon is embracing the stark words..winter is coming all you can do is prepare and endure winter, no point in wishing for things

[Winterfellian]

The chapter is all about gender politics and equality. What is wrong with Queen Regent Dany having a lover, especially considering this is a political marriage when men in this world flaunt their lovers? The Green Grace's objection would make sense if Hizdahr planned to remain faithful, but he was going to kill her as his Nana is the Harpy. Yes, she has really bad ideas about what makes a good lover - Daario, for real?? and is probably going to get betrayed by him when someone gives him enough gold. However, I cannot fault her on the taking a lover situation.

Personally I actually took it to be a terrible political mistake. As you said yourself a queen must be more careful because unlike a King an affair on her part does endangers the royal line. Unfair, but that's what it is even in our world.

The Mereeseene are viewing this alliance as the union between the dragon and the harpy and are counting on a child and Dany's affair started very very shortly before the wedding so it may help to inspire mistrust.

I know Dany thinks she's barren and so is not concern at getting pregnant but her court and Mereen do not know this. If you look at it from the GG and Hizdahr's family point of view is actually very insulting even if it is an arranged marriage. Remember that she didn't allow Hizdahr's mothers and sisters to do the physical on her. Am not saying she should have ,but, given the mistrust the elite families seem to have for Dany her refusal coupled with the Daario affair so shortly before the wedding does gives them cause to mistrust her even more and instigate more bad rumours about her. Like for example, the queen didn't want us to examine her because she's already carrying a bastard from her sellsword and means to sit this bastard in the harpy throne and so on. This kind of crap doesn't have to be truth to drag Dany's name in the mud and turn the people against her. Just look at the campaign against Marie Antoinette.

Also, the Daario thing was very public...way too public as to sparkle more rumours like the example I wrote above. I might be wrong but I think even Robert kept his affairs in the bedroom or behind closed doors and never in the throne room because it will give Tywin and Cercei cause to be offended and create a lot of havoc. Look at it this way: Daario, an illiterate lowborn sellsword kissing the Queen Daenerys Targaryen in HER throne room in front of the entire court. It sends a statement directed to offend everybody, but harms Dany most of all. So bad political move whatever way you look at it

Everyone here is talking about how Dany needs to choose between her Dragon and Mother persona. Personally, I believe that there are two misconceptions in that statement:

• That the two are mutually exclusive. Dragons are mothers as well and she needs to realise this. There are other in-story examples for this: Cat is almost feral when her children are in danger and Cersei's maternal instincts need no introduction. She needs to understand that she must be a she-dragon, defending her nest. She must be strong, ferocious and unwilling to compromise where her children are concerned. She also needs to realise who these children are-the poor, the down-trodden, the wronged ones, the people who have nowhere else to go,no one to turn to. And she must understand that these include the free as well as the slaves-the boy who tripped over his tokar was as much her child as well as the former slave Missndei.
  
• The other is that she is embodying either of these roles.
  

About your first point am not sure if this was your intention, but I gather you suggests she has to make a distinction between her children and the rest and protect this children as a dragon does her ''cubs''.

Ironically one of the problems I have with the way Dany rules is that she does makes this distinction even if she doesn't protect them or their interests very well.

For example, in this chapter (not for the first time) she clearly draws a line between her people and Hizdahr's people. My problem with this distinction is that it denotes an inability to see the bigger picture. A queen or king cannot rule for only one group of people. Groups in societies are not isolated entities. What happens to one will affect the others and so a king must find a balance stand and rule for all. If she starts to rule exclusively for the freedmen/her children, how long before all the rest join the Sons of the Harpy or viceversa. I think the only way she could avoid this phenomenom is to eliminate, that is, kill every single man, women or child in Mereen that isn't part of her ''children'' so she's just left with the freedmen.

The problem is what will Dany become if she starts on this path. Killing all the nobility in Mereen won't be enough, because they may have friends or family willing to avenge them in, say, Yunkai. So she will have to go to Yunkai and again eliminate every single person who isn't part of her children there, but then she will probably have to take this elimination process to Volantis, and so on. In little to no time she will have the blood of an entire continent in her hands and what started as good intentions will end up becoming a sort of ''with me or against me'' philosophy (You are either oone of my children of you aren't)

When she decided to queen herself in Mereen she was making a social contract acknowledging her responsability for all of her subjects. This have to include the good and the bad, the freedman and the slavers, the poor and the wealthy and so on. These different sorts of people will always be present in some form whether she rules Mereen or Westeros and in none of them she can go making distinctions. Is only in a fairytale where everyone in the kingdom is good and brave so is unrealistic to expect she will someday will rule a city consisting of only her ''children'' without resorting to embracing her dragon persona.

I do feel Cat and Cercei are good role models for your case, but maybe not in the way you intended, as in defending Dany :P . Yes, they do turn kinda feral where their children are concern but, is this really a good thing long term speaking? Most of the times it cause them to blind themselves and commit big mistakes or keep them from seeing the bigger picture. Dany has some troubles in this area already. Like for example when she ordered tortured on a man and his daughters after finding out that one of her ''children'' (the singer) have been harmed. Before she find out about the singer she recognized that they could be innocent and ordered for them not to be harmed during questioning. At the beggining, she had a clear view of things but once her ''child'' was harmed, the dragon awaked and she decided to change her mind and command the Shavepate to tortured them. Do you feel this outburst give her credibility as a queen or impartiality as a judge?

About your second point, why do you feel Dany doesn't embody the dragon and the mother roles? I mean the question as a curiosity on my part, because throughout the reread I noticed most people (myself included) agree on the opposite, so I feel it will be interesting to hear a different opinion.

[Winter's Knight]

<snip>

Dany is not just a conqueror but a liberator. That is the point from which she began n GoT when she freed the Dothraki outcasts and promised them the liberty to go or to stay as equals. This included all the Dotraki both enslaved and free, feeble or otherwise. She then steps into the pyre and births a means to protect her new subjects.

In Astapor, she liberates the slaves but she doesn't protect them and she repeats the same mistake in Yunkai.

In Meereen she gives up both roles: she can nether efficiently liberate the slaves,nor protect them, not realising that her previous failures were a result of doing too little rather than too much.

That is what I meant when I said that she has stopped embodying either of the two roles.

As to the first,I was trying to say that her children are the people who have been wronged by others: slaves, outcasts, misfits. This includes those in the nobility of course.

[Dacie]

Also, the Daario thing was very public...way too public as to sparkle more rumours like the example I wrote above. I might be wrong but I think even Robert kept his affairs in the bedroom or behind closed doors and never in the throne room because it will give Tywin and Cercei cause to be offended and create a lot of havoc. Look at it this way: Daario, an illiterate lowborn sellsword kissing the Queen Daenerys Targaryen in HER throne room in front of the entire court. It sends a statement directed to offend everybody, but harms Dany most of all. So bad political move whatever way you look at it

I agree. I know Daario causes a lot of controversy because Dany is often unfairly slut-shamed for sleeping with him. And while this is just ridiculous, I too think it was a bad political decision. It is completely inappropriate for him to kiss her in the middle of the throne room and in front of all those people. Not to mention that it undermines her authority. If a lowly sellsword can disrespect her that way and nothing happens, what message does this send to the Harpy and all her other enemies. Not to mention that the GG was so bold as to actually show up at court to question and chastise her about her lover. Can you imagine a bannerman showing up in King's Landing to question Tywin Lannister about his sex life?!

I know Dany thinks she's barren and so is not concern at getting pregnant but her court and Mereen do not know this. If you look at it from the GG and Hizdahr's family point of view is actually very insulting even if it is an arranged marriage. Remember that she didn't allow Hizdahr's mothers and sisters to do the physical on her. Am not saying she should have ,but, given the mistrust the elite families seem to have for Dany her refusal coupled with the Daario affair so shortly before the wedding does gives them cause to mistrust her even more and instigate more bad rumours about her. Like for example, the queen didn't want us to examine her because she's already carrying a bastard from her sellsword and means to sit this bastard in the harpy throne and so on. This kind of crap doesn't have to be truth to drag Dany's name in the mud and turn the people against her. Just look at the campaign against Marie Antoinette.

This too. This is the reason even in today's society parents of teenagers are so much more lenient with their sons than daughters: boys cannot get pregnant. This distinction is not fair or right or politically correct in any way, but unfortunately it's the way things are.

I have no problem with Dany taking as many lovers as she desires. But if she has committed to playing this political game by marrying Hizdar then she is going to have to be very careful and discreet about it. Again, I hate to use Tywin as an example, but he (most likely) had a secret passage built to the brothel so no one would know he ever visited prostitutes.

[Ragnorak]

@Alysanne

Agree with everything what you wrote, but I think the High Septon rather than a bannerman is the parallel to the GG. In KL we have a High Septon very publicly imprisoning the Regent over her sex life. I don't think this detracts from your point though because the real difference there is that the High Septon has an army. Prior to Cersei giving them one everything you wrote is dead on. But it did get me thinking.

KL has this current High Septon because Cersei killed the last one since she was convinced he was a Tyrion pawn. There was so much intrigue and maneuvering surrounding the Faith in KL that I can't help but notice the total lack of the same in Meereen. Religion is such a significant influence it even found its way into the Varys power riddle. A Varys, LF, or Tyrion would immediately identify helpful and harmful aspects of the religion and either co-opt the GG or mourn the passing of such a wise and elderly woman. In KL they notice puppet shows and in Meereen they miss the entire religion. The Ghiscari Empire was great 5,000 years ago before slavery. Dany could have easily used turning away from slavery as a turn back to greatness and framed it within the context of their religion.

[Lummel]

Hello everybody! Before rolling up my sleeves, spitting on my hands and getting on with Jon VIII I thought I would quickly just add a bastardised self assessment form for Depression from the UK National Health Service to the thread - not that passing readers can measure their mental health (which if you are rereading the Daenerys and Jon chapters should be grim with a sense of impending tragedy) but so we can have a go at testing the idea that Daenerys and Jon might be depressed which we have often mentioned but so far not really paused to examine.

Could Daenerys and Jon be depressed?

There are many symptoms of depression, including low mood, feelings of hopelessness, low self-esteem, lack of energy and problems with sleep. The more symptoms someone has, the more likely they are to be depressed...

Each question is meant to be answered using the following scale:

No, not at all (0 points)

On some days (1 point)

On more than half the days (2 points)

Nearly every day (3 points)

1.Have they found little pleasure or interest in doing things?

2.Have they found themselves feeling down, depressed or hopeless?

3.Have they had trouble falling or staying asleep, or sleeping too much?

4.Have they been feeling tired or had little energy?

5.Have they had a poor appetite or been overeating?

6.Have they felt that they are a failure or that they have let themselves or their families down?

7.Have they had some trouble concentrating on things like reading the paper listening to the tidings brought by messengers or watching TV paying attention to prophecies?

8.Have they been moving or speaking slowly, or very fidgety, so that other people could notice?

9.Have they thought that they would be better off dead or hurting themselves in some way?

[Lummel]

Jon VIII

Overview

This is one of the short chapters in this reread which takes place over a couple of hours. It begins with Jon saying farewell to Val by the dawn's early light. She is undertaking, on a half blind horse, to find Tormund to bring him Jon's offer of safe haven south of the Wall and to return in two weeks time.

Returning to his quarters Jon starts to eat breakfast when he is interrupted by Yarwick, Cellador and Marsh who discuss their concerns until Jon dismisses them.

Observations

• The half blind horse – is also a Pale Horse. Is Val an agent of the apocalypse? Will her intervention bring death ultimately to Tormund's wildlings? Half blind though is an improvement on the sightless men caught by the Weeper.
  
• Corn king, kill Does Mormont's raven already see Jon as a sacrificial figure here? Or is this just a warning? We don't get a John Barleycorn, but we do have a Tom Barleycorn who appears here and there. Anyway between this and the Pale Horse expect worse to come!
  
• What is driving Jon in this chapter? Compassion for the wildlings or fear of the scale of the enemy? Or do the two feed into each other?
  

Analysis

scope of opposition

We get a sense of the opposition to Jon from this chapter. Firstly word of Val's departure has been kept secret by a small group of men in the know. Brothers on duty however react incredulously seeing her taken through the tunnel to the north side of the Wall. And in the time that it takes Jon to get back to his quarters and eat half his breakfast word has got to Bowen Marsh, Septon Cellador and Othell Yarwyck and brought them to Jon. That's quick.

“The men do not trust him.”

Which men? Jon might have asked. How many? But that would lead him down a road he did not mean to ride.

Everything that Jon is doing meets with disapproval. He owed his election to the combination of being a fighter, being castle born and educated (and of course the back room dealings of Sam), but how long can he continue as Lord Commander if the brothers don't trust him or his decisions any more? Are the majority at Castle Black seeing him as some kind of Captain Ahab on the Pequod steering them into disaster? Does the secrecy mean that Jon feared that some others might have intervened to prevent Val from going back through the Wall?

sending away supporters

Jon's made a decision here to promote Iron Emmett and Dolorous Edd to senior posts. While we don't doubt their worth this also means that Jon is depriving himself of trusted supporters who were also trusted and well regarded by the brothers. This is a decision that is going to leave him more isolated and lacking in effective advocates among the rank and file at Castle Black.

Relations with his officers

“Maester Aemon would have grasped his purpose, Jon did not doubt; Sam Tarly would have been terrified , but he would have understood as well.”

I'm in at least two minds over this aspect of the scene. On the positive side Jon does spend time explaining his thinking to some extent with three of his officers. But although he listens to them state their complaints he doesn't allow them a thorough opportunity to explain there concerns either – although I suppose that by the end of the scene Jon's patience is running thin too.

On the negative side though the burden of failing to understand is put on the officers. This reminds me of Daenerys in Dany V and echos of Stannis in Jon I. The problem isn't in their own opinion their own failure to communicate and explain but in the shortcomings of their advisers. But then if the leader is aware of the shortcomings of the people they rely upon to exercise their orders then surely it is also their responsibility to replace them or to complement them with more capable people?

We know that Jon is aware that Mormont was murdered by his brothers yet despite the warning, despite his knowledge that there is opposition to him he doesn't seem to consider that things might come to blows - although his secrecy over the Val mission suggests that perhaps he does think that his opponents in the Watch would have been prepared to physically prevent her departure. Surely after the Red Wedding he doesn't trust in the magic of Stark descent?

Anyhow, while Jon's future looks bleak for rereaders the future holds the promise of Daenerys VIII to be delivered to you courtesy of Dr Pepper.

[tze]

Even so, of late he grew too bold. On the day that he returned from his latest sortie, he had tossed the head of a Yunkish lord at her feet and kissed her in the hall for all the world to see, until Barristan Selmy pulled the two of them apart. Ser Grandfather had been so wroth that Dany feared blood might be shed.

There's an awful lot of interesting things going on in this little tidbit in addition to the staggering fact that Dany's making out with Daario in her throne room, before her entire court, to the point where her own knight had to physically pull them apart. First, there's the mention of Daario's "latest sortie": given what we see about the Yunkish martial capabilities (or lack thereof), how sure are we that this really was the head of a Yunkish lord? These lords don't actually fight themselves, they have slave armies to fight (poorly) for them. And even if it was a Yunkish lordling's head . . . Dany seems to implicitly consider Daario a great warrior. That he's good at killing is supposedly his only great skill. She thinks about how ten men could attack him, ten "would-be heroes", and five would die. But should readers assume she's correct? She's never actually seen Daario fight, and obviously killing one of the Yunkish lords isn't exactly on par with killing an actual warrior. Back when Dany first met Daario, he was not in the best shape; mention was made of his shabby clothing and of course we know that he wasn't commanding the Stormcrows on his own. (He only became the sole captain by killing the other two captains---but then, we don't know how he killed those captains. For all we know, he poisoned them and cut off their heads postmortem.) Dany seems to be the only person who really respects/likes Daario---even Barristan seems to only want Daario returned from the Yunkish because of Dany's regard for him, not because he values Daario as a warrior or feels the Stormcrows will desert without Daario leading them. I guess my question is: how great a warrior is Daario? Objectively? He keeps bringing Dany heads, but we never see how he gets ahold of those heads. For all we know, the vast majority of his "kills" are really just him taking credit for other people's kills. (It would certainly jive with what he wanted to do with Quentyn's "gift" to Daenerys.)

And then there's Dany calling Barristan Ser Grandfather, just as Daario does. Dany seems to have literally no idea the asset she has in Barristan the Bold, given the demeaning way she thinks about him here. Can we really see anybody in Westeros referring to Ser Barristan as 'Ser Grandfather'? Even in their own heads? I certainly can't. Dany thinks that a conflict between Barristan and Daario might have come to blood . . . but I don't think she realizes that Barristan would most likely have cut through Daario like tissue paper. It's interesting that Dany thinks Daario is growing too "bold", but doesn't seem to recognize the capacities of the guy with the actual "Bold" epithet. Perhaps it's because the only time she's seen Barristan fight was back in ACOK when they first met (and he saved her life), and even then he had Strong Belwas with him. Every other time he's fought, Dany has been elsewhere. (She never even watches him training his new knights.) I can't help but think that Dany's seeming inability to accurately gauge the skills of those around her, politically and martially, is going to come back to bite her, big time.

“You are beautiful,” she blurted as she watched him don his riding boots and lace them up. Some days he let her do that for him, but not today, it seemed. That’s done with too.

How does she act with Daario? Apparently she's been dressing him when he lets her (oh, how kind of Daario to allow the Queen of Meereen to lace up his boots for him!). And how does it look to those around her when Dany won't wash Hizdahr's feet but will happily lace up the boots of a man like Daario? Do we really think Daario isn't bragging far and wide about the things Dany does for him?

Missandei's little statement originally seemed very naive: "Your grace? Are you unwell? In the black of night this one heard you scream." But on re-read . . . Missandei seems like a pretty sharp tool, and given her previous occupation, I'm sure she encountered people having sex before. (And obviously if she'd really been afraid for Dany upon hearing screams, she'd have done something, called someone.) So what's the point of Missandei telling Dany she heard her scream? It seems to go over Dany's head, but I think Missandei was trying to point out that everyone can hear Dany and Daario having sex. Missandei might think Dany's actually trying to keep this affair a secret.

And I'd be very curious to know exactly what Daario does when he's out of Dany's sight. When he leaves her bed early in the chapter, he says he's going

“Out into your city,” he said, “to drink a keg or two and pick a quarrel. It has been too long since I’ve killed a man. Might be I should seek out your betrothed.”

Dany threw a pillow at him. “You will leave Hizdahr be!”

Later he comes back drunk off his ass. What does Daario do when he's out of Dany's sight? How does he act? His actions reflect on Dany, given Dany's very public regard for him, but we really have no idea what kind of reputation Daario has outside of the Great Pyramid. I really wonder: does he pay for all those drinks? Does he pay for anything? Does he just wander around the city, bragging about what Dany does for him? Which brings up the incident with the Green Grace:

"I would speak to you about the presumption of a certain sellsword captain."

Dany assumes she's talking about Daario making out with her in her throne room, and the Green Grace might very well have been doing just that. But given that we have no idea how Daario acts when he's out of Dany's sight, (but we do know he seems very keen on making sure everyone knows he's fucking the Dragon Queen), I wonder if Daario's been throwing his weight around outside of the Great Pyramid as well, and the Green Grace wanted to talk to Dany about that in addition to the whole throne room incident.

It's interesting that Dany repeatedly emphasizes in this chapter how she wants clothes that are "cool". She specifies that she wants "light and cool" clothes while holding court, and upon leaving for her wedding, she thinks about how she envies the Dothraki clothes, because Irri and Jhiqi would be much cooler in their clothes than she would be "in her tokar, with its heavy fringe of baby pearls." For someone who prides herself on supposedly thriving in the element of heat, it's interesting how she seems to associate heat, not with freedom to make her own choices, but with doing things that others want her to do.

One of the major problems Dany faces again and again is her inability to fully commit to any single course of action. I don't think it's a coincidence that Dany, like Cersei, was having sex with someone else right before her wedding---and given the way she never fully "gives up" Daario, at least not in her own head, her marriage was seemingly doomed from the start. And there's some pretty huge cognitive dissonance in her interations with the Dornishmen: she thinks about being the Westerosi sellswords' "rightful queen", gets presented with a potential Westerosi alliance, and turns it down because it's Westerosi-centric. I'd have been very curious to get Quentyn's POV of that scene; not just the whole laughter issue, but also to see how he and the other Dornishmen felt when Dany had herself announced as the rightful Queen of Westeros, of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men . . . then scoffed at a Westerosi alliance geared toward making those titles a reality. As she prepares to marry someone no Westerosi wants as their king, she tells the Dornishmen that one day she'll conquer Westeros, and then she'll want their support . . . but by refusing the Dornish alliance lock, stock, and barrel, she's implicitly saying that she fully intends on taking that support for granted, that she'll expect future support but doesn't think she'll have to do anything in return.

[Julian Rayne]

What is driving Jon in this chapter? Compassion for the wildlings or fear of the scale of the enemy? Or do the two feed into each other?

I think he would have let them pass on either grounds. Note that during his "treating" with Mance in ASoS, he seriously considers Mance's proposal. His major objection was Mance's refusal (on behalf of the Wildlings) to abide by the King's Law. Of course he wasn't LC at the time, neither was he authorized to make any deals.

It's interesting that he never uses the humanitarian argument with his senators.

[sunworshipper]

It's interesting that he never uses the humanitarian argument with his senators.

It's pretty obvious that Marsh and Co. would prefer the wildings all die.

[Ragnorak]

I think Jon handles himself exceptionally well with Marsh, Yarwyck, and the Septon. The only criticism I might potentially find is not replacing them and even then that might not be a good idea. Replacing people who disagree with you is not always a positive message in leadership. Additionally he doesn't realy have any replacement options. There probably isn't a Septon north of The Neck outside of White Harbor and certainly not another one at the Wall. Yarwyck and Marsh happen to be very competent in their specific fields. Marsh in particular seems to have exceptional resource management skills and with winter coming and supplies being stretched he is of great value in his current role.

“The men have concerns, my lord.”

And who is it who appointed you to speak for them? "As do I. Othell, how goes the work at the Nightfort? I have had a letter from Ser Axell Florent, who styles himself the Queen’s Hand."

They have come to complain about how Jon is doing his job. They open with "the men have concerns" and not "we have concerns." This is simply cowardly and it shows a lack of conviction and a need to bolster their arguments by alluding to hypothetical superior numbers. Jon responds with "As do I." This immediately reminds them he is in charge. He also brings up the complaint of a single man by name, Axell Florent, that has direct bearing on one of their jobs and also includes the man's station that gives him the right to complain.

"Sooner if I had more builders."

“I could offer you a giant. ... Tireless, though, and his strength is prodigious. He could do the work of a dozen men.”

There is a complaint about a problem and Jon offers a solution. In this case again Yarwyck turns it down under the guise of "the men" rather than owning the decision he is making by saying "I do not want."

my lord, the men would never

What is worse is the reasoning:

giants eat human flesh, I think

This giant ate no meat at all, though he was a holy terror when served a basket of roots, crunching onions and turnips and even raw hard neeps between his big square teeth.

The lone giant devouring turnips in the yard must have been quite the spectacle and a huge source of mess hall gossip given the children's tales they all must have heard. Additionally there is Jon's treatment of the giant.

Jon spoke with the giant whenever he could... and was learning much and more about his people and their history.

This means Jon was not simply giving orders to a dullwitted thing like Hodor. He was listening to the history and stories. Jon has been demonstrating that this giant could be communicated with and that must have been given equal gossip time in the mess hall. It also leadership by example.

Then there is the complaint about Satin. Jon reminds them all that a man's past does not matter in the Watch-- something these men should all know better than Jon. Jon's defense of Satin is:

He’s quick to learn and very clever. The other recruits started out despising him, but he won them over and made friends of them all. He’s fearless in a fight and can even read and write after a fashion.

So he's giving them evidence that "the men" that know Satin don't have a problem with him. I think his two examples of worse men were direct shots at the Septon. The man who raped Septas is straight forward but the man who locked his family in the house and watched them burn is very reminiscent of Melisandre and her "hethen" religion.

What is worse is that these men are just complaining.

Traditionally the lord commander’s squires are lads of good birth being groomed for command.

That is an office most oft reserved for knights, or rangers at the least.

“Tollett is a good man, and well liked, and Iron Emmett has been a fine master-at-arms,” he said then. “Yet the talk is that you mean to send them away.”

Who is the "lad of good birth" they want him to make his steward? What knight of ranger do they want as master-at-arms? If not Tollet and Emmett than who? For all their list of complaints they have not one single alternative suggestion to offer their Lord Commander.

Marsh in particular is striking. From last chapter we hear that March complained about "Harlot's Tower." Jon listened to his complaint and made it the first group to send away from Castle Black. Now he's complaining about "Whore's Hole." He's praising the men Jon is sending to command it as part of his complaint without ever making the connection that good men are being assigned to the hardest problem. He hates the Wildlings so much you'd think he'd at least be happy the men are training by practicing to kill one. There is just no pleasing or reasoning with any of these men.

The Wildlings and the wights debate drives home just how unreasonable they are.

Might I ask about these corpses in the ice cells? They make the men uneasy. And to keep them under guard? Surely that is a waste of two good men, unless you fear that they ...”

Again they rely on "the men" instead of owning their own complaints. They're clearly too blinded by their complaints to realize that the guards mean Jon expects them to rise and are unwilling to listen to his reasoning once he explains it. The Septon who is all too willing to use the gods to condemn Jon's actions with the wights, easily forgets his gods when Jon makes his first reasoned and humanitarian explanation of the Wildlings.

These are wildlings. Savages, raiders, rapers, more beast than man.”

“Tormund is none of those things,” said Jon, “no more than Mance Rayder. But even if every word you said was true, they are still men, Bowen. Living men, human as you and me. Winter is coming, my lords, and when it does, we living men will need to stand together against the dead.”

What makes their stubborness even worse is that Jon has just told them he's staked his life on this belief.

“And if she lied? If she meets with misadventure?”

“Why, then, you may have a chance to choose a lord commander more to your liking. Until such time, I fear you’ll still need to suffer me.” Jon took a swallow of ale. “I sent her to find Tormund Giantsbane and bring him my offer.”

Jon has just said in so many words that I believe this is so important that I trusted Val with my life because if I'm wrong we all know Stannis will take my head. He's just said I am staking my life on my decisions and if I'm wrong you can pick someone else as LC at no cost to you but a missing Wildling Princess. Even that doesn't penetrate. Finally he poses to these three men who are so terrified of two potential wights in chains with two guards on them.

“Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?”

“Let me tell you what will happen,” Jon said. “The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us.”

Which men? Jon might have asked. How many? But that would lead him down a road he did not mean to ride.

This begs the question of "which road?" I think this is about factionalizing the Watch and Jon explicitly choosing not to.

“—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants.” Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. “Words are wind, and the wind is always blowing at the Wall.

Jon knows what is being said about him and finds it acceptable given his plans and the current situation. "The wind always blowing at the Wall" I took to mean people always complain about the LC. I think Jon is determined not to let the current situation or his leadership style factionalize the Watch and prefers to have some of the anti-wildling sentiment directed at him rather than purely at the Wildlings. This also serves to decrease the liklihood of a Watch/Wildling open conflict. In Meereen, Dany's problems would be half solved if she could be hated for being half Ghiscari. I also suspect every answer given to Marsh, Yarwyck and the Septon was carefully crafted to avoid factionalizing. He knows they are going to share all his answers with whoever "the men" they refer to are and none of those answers will actually promote infighting or factionalizing beyond whatever Wildling animosity already exists.

[tze]

I think Jon handles himself exceptionally well with Marsh, Yarwyck, and the Septon. The only criticism I might potentially find is not replacing them and even then that might not be a good idea. Replacing people who disagree with you is not always a positive message in leadership. Additionally he doesn't realy have any replacement options.

I think the whole "Satin" issue takes on some interesting dimensions in this context. Satin is much younger than Marsh, and according to Jon, a fearless fighter and quite good at making friends (a notable skill, given that Satin's particular past put him at a distinct disadvantage when it came to getting men's respect). And Jon mentions that Satin is apparently one of the few men on the Wall capable of reading and writing. Bowen Marsh is quite perturbed at Satin's new status, and I don't think it's entirely due to concerns about "how it will look to the men". Think about it: "Traditionally the lord commander’s squires arelads of good birth being groomed for command." What "command" does Marsh believe Jon Snow is grooming Satin for? Jon's even younger than Satin, so presumably it isn't the office of Lord Commander. Bowen Marsh doesn't seem to care about who commands the other castles, not for their own sakes (he doesn't seem to care that Iron Emmett is in charge at Long Barrow, for example, just that Iron Emmett is no longer part of Castle Black's garrison). Satin is a steward, not a builder or ranger. So what particular position is Marsh keen on preventing Satin from achieving?

The Lord Steward's position, perhaps?

[Fire Eater]

One thing I noticed is that after Dany said she wouldn't be using the dragons, Brown Ben Plumm asks for gold and gems to supposedly bribe the Yunkai'i sellswords to switch sides, and it is later revealed the Brown Ben defected to Yunkai, and he managed to trick Dany into giving him gold and jewels before he did. When Jon sent to val to find Tormund and bring him to the Wall, he kept Monster to guarantee that she would come back. The only things he gave her were a horse and provisions.

Jon also spoke to Wun Wun whenever he could, and he learned about the giants and their history, so Jon is at least making an attempt to learn about the culture and history of his former enemies he tries to make into allies. Dany makes scant attempts to learn about the Meereenese and their history from anyone in Meereen.

[kg1982]

I think the whole "Satin" issue takes on some interesting dimensions in this context. Satin is much younger than Marsh, and according to Jon, a fearless fighter and quite good at making friends (a notable skill, given that Satin's particular past put him at a distinct disadvantage when it came to getting men's respect). And Jon mentions that Satin is apparently one of the few men on the Wall capable of reading and writing. Bowen Marsh is quite perturbed at Satin's new status, and I don't think it's entirely due to concerns about "how it will look to the men". Think about it: "Traditionally the lord commander’s squires arelads of good birth being groomed for command." What "command" does Marsh believe Jon Snow is grooming Satin for? Jon's even younger than Satin, so presumably it isn't the office of Lord Commander. Bowen Marsh doesn't seem to care about who commands the other castles, not for their own sakes (he doesn't seem to care that Iron Emmett is in charge at Long Barrow, for example, just that Iron Emmett is no longer part of Castle Black's garrison). Satin is a steward, not a builder or ranger. So what particular position is Marsh keen on preventing Satin from achieving?

The Lord Steward's position, perhaps?

It seems that being Steward to the Lord Commander is officially given to a young man of high birth, ideally a Stark or a nobleman of the North. I think that the Watch prefers Northmen or at least followers of the old golds (Brynden Rivers) to lead them. It's a great position and one that is meant to groom the person for command. Jon's politically naivete in GOT is shown in that he doesn't get the importance of position and the reason why he got it - he thinks that Thorne is screwing with him when the reality is that LC Mormont appreciates his leadership abilities. I don't think that Jon plans on making Satin chief stewart; he just doesn't get the political implications associated with the position. To him, Satin is an able man, he can read and write, and he has demonstrated clear leadership abilities, so why not make him the Lord Commander's steward. He's thinking from a wildling perspective - the best man for the job. A better approach might have been to appoint two stewards - one might be Satin and another one closer to Marsh's faction.

[Foxhound]

To nitpick, Dany did see Barristan fight the Titan's Bastard, and how quick he could move and how easily he won with only a wooden staff. So her taking after Daario (who has never seen him fight and doesn't know his history or reputation) in calling him "Ser Grandfather" is not encouraging. As for Daario's actual abilities, while we've seen good fighters who also are very arrogant (Jaime or Loras) we've seen others with a lot worse bark than bite. The proof is generally given either by seeing them fight, or what other's say. All we have from Daario is what he claims, he doesn't seem to have any reputation of his own.

As for the issue of Jon replacing Marsh or anyone else, or alternative candidates for his steward, we are told way back in AGOT by Mormont that there about only about twenty literate men in the Watch, and even fewer that are smart enough to plan or lead. I don't how many are even still alive at this point. We see Jon tapping into the wildings as a source of raw manpower to make up the Watch's tiny numbers, but he has no source for new officers. Hell he has so few (and no maesters) that he can't even afford to use them to try and train others. So decisions like sending away Iron Emmett and Dolorous Edd from Castle Back are dangerous, but he really has no alternative.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really great analysis from Tze about Daario and Barristan and how Dany perceives the two of them. When you put it in those terms, one does wonder about Daario's actual skill. And the idea of him getting shitfaced and sitting in a bar bragging about nailing Dany makes me light up like a Christmas tree.

I have my own thematic-theory contribution to add to this, but sadly it must wait until both Jon and Dany have had their final chapters. I will wait patiently.

[Ragnorak]

/snip

The Lord Steward's position, perhaps?

Nice catch. I had considered the Septon hating Jon because of the Southron recruits he swayed to take an oath before the Old Gods but missed Satin as a Marsh replacement completely.

Also I think this chapter has some strong "Corn King" allusions as Lummel mentioned is his summary. My intuitive feel for that theory is just off so I skipped it, but the references are definitely there.