Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[Punchslap]

Anyway, didn't we covered all this in the first thread? We are going in circles.

Yes and it has its own thread.

[Yeade]

I don't want to keep derailing the thread from discussion of Dany's latest chapter (great work, butterbumps!), so I'll try to be brief. Yes, yes. Go ahead and laugh. :blush:

Maia, my terming Bowen Marsh's betrayal of Jon as possibly treason is for Marsh's lack of any authority to act against his Lord Commander as he does, yes, and because I think the Night's Watch can be considered a single house as well as army with Jon as the absolute ruler, though elected. I've actually theorized that, besides intervention by the Stark in Winterfell, the men of the NW can vote a Lord Commander out of office the same way he's voted in, provided oathbreaking or another clear and serious dereliction of duty can be proven. My speculation's that Marsh is organizing just such a recall election against Jon behind the scenes but doesn't have enough support amongst his brothers to pull it off before the Pink Letter upsets his plans.

As for your observation that the Wall may be a supernatural Maginot Line, I too wonder how well the defenses can stand up to the Others. For one, Brandon the Builder raises the Wall after the Long Night, meaning the defenses have never been tested against the Others, who've had thousands of years to contemplate how to circumvent this most conspicuous obstacle to their invasion of Westeros.

Given Coldhands's behavior, I'm inclined to believe the Wall is warded as Bloodraven's cave is spelled to keep wights from crossing the threshold. Undead Othor and Jafer Flowers are no exception to this as they don't infiltrate Castle Black while animated but are carried through the gate as corpses by the NW. There are two other problems: 1) Jon probably doesn't know of the Wall's magical defenses because Sam's sworn to secrecy about Bran and his companions. 2) The theorized wards, likely being anchored to the Wall's physical structure, may not extend above the Wall or far to the sides past Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. This leaves vulnerable flanks and presents a plausible explanation for the Wall's ridiculous height as well as why there are so many castles along its length, IMO, taken together with the rumored hundred-foot snows. Bad news, Jon.

kg1982, I don't have anything to add to what everyone else's said about the situation with Stannis and the Boltons. Though, taunt or no, I do feel Jon could've used Ramsay's (first?) letter as a pretext to send his envoys, as Lykos suggests, to fake!Arya's wedding. However, as Winterfellian asks, who does Jon assign to this politically sensitive mission? Perhaps Marsh? Put his habitual toadying up to the Iron Throne and its representatives to good purpose? Of course, once in Winterfell and two hundred leagues away from Jon's supervision, Marsh might've hatched a plot with the Boltons to depose Jon, lol.

Finally, some food for thought:

In discussions about what the proper response is to the implied threat to the NW in the Pink Letter, there's arisen the concept that neutrality can only be maintained by the mutual consent of all the parties involved. The NW traditionally takes no part in the realm's affairs (note: at best an interpretation of the vows codified as convention), but the realm has no say in how the NW conducts its own business at the Wall and in the Gift. No neutral faction can stay neutral for long if consequences, up to and including the use of force, are not imposed on those who would endanger the organization or coerce its members.

The NW is no more beholden to the Iron Throne, the Lannisters, the Boltons, or even the Starks than it is to Stannis. Considering the Wall's desperate need for aid, it may be more productive to adopt a quid pro quo approach to neutrality. Stannis saves the NW from ruin at the hands of Mance Rayder, so the NW grants him and his army hospitality. The Boltons have done nothing to help the NW, so the NW has no obligation to protect Bolton interests in the North by denying Stannis the knowledge he demands to war against them, especially as Stannis grants the wildlings to man the Wall in return. Should the Boltons suddenly show up at Castle Black in good faith, ready to provide the NW with reinforcements or supplies, then the Lord Commander shall consider renegotiating the terms of the NW's associations with both Stannis and the Boltons.

Despite what Maester Aemon says, love, duty, and honor are not mutually exclusive. Jon deriving personal satisfaction from his actions doesn't automatically put him in the wrong or make him an oathbreaker so long as what he does serves his duty to the realms of men. I'd argue that pretty much every one of Jon's decisions in ADWD with the exception of Mance Rayder's sekrit mission is in line with preparing to fight the Others.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The NW is no more beholden to the Iron Throne, the Lannisters, the Boltons, or even the Starks than it is to Stannis. Considering the Wall's desperate need for aid, it may be more productive to adopt a quid pro quo approach to neutrality. Stannis saves the NW from ruin at the hands of Mance Rayder, so the NW grants him and his army hospitality. The Boltons have done nothing to help the NW, so the NW has no obligation to protect Bolton interests in the North by denying Stannis the knowledge he demands to war against them, especially as Stannis grants the wildlings to man the Wall in return. Should the Boltons suddenly show up at Castle Black in good faith, ready to provide the NW with reinforcements or supplies, then the Lord Commander shall consider renegotiating the terms of the NW's associations with both Stannis and the Boltons.

Totally agree with this. Chastising Jon for his reaction to the Pink Letter, while not holding the Boltons to the same standards, is to miss the point entirely.

[Tagganaro]

@Yeade- Don't ever change haha. Don't go with briefer posts, the longer the better, you always have a lot of good stuff to say and I enjoy reading them

Assuming the Wall is some kind of supernatural Maginot line...well, how'd that work out for the French in WWII? It's one thing to build good defenses around a seemingly impenetrable wall, but that's assuming the enemy directly engages you in the manner you expect and want them to. The French learned that the hard way in WWII...Hitler said, "Oh yeah, you got an impenetrable wall huh, how about I just go around it through terrain you don't expect me to and then rip you a new one from your flanks?" You can't just expect a Wall to do all the work, especially when large portions of it are left unguarded and unwatched that would easily allow anyone to flank you (as you said Yeade). I'd assume a race of magical ice demons capable of riding giant spiders into battle are not gonna be stopped by a freaking large wall of ice alone, which is the problem with Bowen Marsh's stupid philosophy. That's not even counting wildlings who will try again to break through the Wall running from those very same ice demons. They will find an unguarded area, climb it, spread out, and massacre you from your flanks.

Oh, and I love your idea about a quid pro quo between NW and any lords (well in particular the different factions in contention for the Iron Throne). The Watch can't stay neutral- It is absolutely impossible and implausible. I agree that Jon should support whoever wants to support the Watch. It is one thing if the Wall is likewise impenetrable from the South, then maybe they can stay neutral. But so long as the South is indefensible, the Wall should essentially be whoring itself out to whichever lord or faction actually wants to support it and insure its existence.

[Punchslap]

Totally agree with this. Chastising Jon for his reaction to the Pink Letter, while not holding the Boltons to the same standards, is to miss the point entirely.

This is probably too simplistic for such an erudite conversation, but as readers we're meant to sympathise with Jon (not Marsh) in what happens, so I'm not sure trying to justify Marsh's actions makes much sense (if we felt those actions were justified, then we don't sympathise with Jon). When I say "justify" I don't mean the legality but the morality--maybe the legal minutia gives Marsh those powers, maybe they don't, but his actions aren't "right", if I'm making any sense.

[kg1982]

Jon should have never sent Mance to Winterfell to get Arya. Up until that point, Jon had plausible deniability.. His paper shield. Even giving Stannis advice could be hidden. Roose likely suspects that Stan is getting advice from Jon, but there is no proof. Mance was sent solely by Jon and when it failed it was traced back to Jon. Even then, I don't think Roose would outright threaten the NW. Which is why I think Roose is probably dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon should have never sent Mance to Winterfell to get Arya.

He didn't send Mance to Winterfell to get Arya.

Melisandre saw "Arya" (really Alys) on the road and Jon allowed Mance to go, thinking they'd pick her up off the road — a neutral position, not in anyone's possession. Mance and the spearwives ended up detouring to Winterfell as the circumstances changed, but — and someone quote it if I'm wrong — nowhere does Jon ever say to them, "Go to Winterfell and steal Arya away."

[Tagganaro]

He didn't send Mance to Winterfell to get Arya.

Melisandre saw "Arya" (really Alys) on the road and Jon allowed Mance to go, thinking they'd pick her up off the road — a neutral position, not in anyone's possession. Mance and the spearwives ended up detouring to Winterfell as the circumstances changed, but — and someone quote it if I'm wrong — nowhere does Jon ever say to them, "Go to Winterfell and steal Arya away."

Yes. You are correct. Jon sends Mance to pick up Arya/Alys from the road, and then when Alys shows up at Castle Black, Jon thinks something along the lines of "Where are you, Mance?" Granted, I'm not sure it changes much- assuming that Mel was right and it was "Arya", if Mance just went straight to her and picked her up, took her back to the Wall, it's not like that would make any difference to Ramsay.

But you are entirely correct- Mance goes to Winterfell of his own accord (or possibly Melisandre's?) and definitely not on Jon's orders.

[Winterfellian]

Jon should have never sent Mance to Winterfell to get Arya. Up until that point, Jon had plausible deniability.. His paper shield. Even giving Stannis advice could be hidden. Roose likely suspects that Stan is getting advice from Jon, but there is no proof. Mance was sent solely by Jon and when it failed it was traced back to Jon. Even then, I don't think Roose would outright threaten the NW. Which is why I think Roose is probably dead.

Apple Martini and Tagganaro already beat me to it, but anyway. I do agree with you that Jons blunders by sending Mance. However is important to clarify that he never intended for Mance to go to Winterfell. That was a decision he made on his own.

- Mel specifically told Jon and Mance that Arya was already coming

- When Mance requested the spearwives, he asked them to be pretty and makes the comment that he needs them for some ploy he has an idea of pulling off.

Perhaps Jon ought to have asked more details about the ploy and why Mance needed the spearwives now that I think about it. But still, never in his own POV to we see Jon asking himself whether Mace had infiltrated WF already or something like this.

@Tagganaro, I don't think he went on Mel's order either. When they were discussing the details he asked Mel for information about the landscape around her vision as to have better idea where to find the girl.

[lojzelote]

He didn't send Mance to Winterfell to get Arya.

Melisandre saw "Arya" (really Alys) on the road and Jon allowed Mance to go, thinking they'd pick her up off the road — a neutral position, not in anyone's possession. Mance and the spearwives ended up detouring to Winterfell as the circumstances changed, but — and someone quote it if I'm wrong — nowhere does Jon ever say to them, "Go to Winterfell and steal Arya away."

Jon lets a Night's Watch deserter (whom he should have immediately put to death, that is law) pick half a dozen spearwives and sends him on his merry way. Jon as a LC shoudn't let known deserter roam the realm. Ned didn't let Gared, half-mad from fear, live either. That Melisandre sent him? And who's in charge of the Wall? Melisandre?!

I'm also very curious what Jon would have done if it had been really Arya on the way to the Wall, and the mission was successful. Roose and/or Ramsay are informed of her sanctuary. (It isn't hard to imagine that Marsch or someone else would send him a letter.) They say: "Give her back." What does Jon do? He's heard from Arya herself what Ramsay forced her to do, what a complete monster he is. He gives her back? Yeah, I believe that. Not.

[kg1982]

I think that it was hinted that perhaps Mance might have ended up at Winterfell or at least Jon should have picked up on that. Jon is still skeptical of Mel's vision. He discounts her vision of the gray girl until Arya showed up and then is crestfallen when it isn't her.

I just think that Jon isn't the great, visionary leader that some posters seem to think he is. Otherwise he wouldn't have ended up getting the Caesar treatment. The fun part is trying to figure out where he failed.

[Ragnorak]

I’m going to posit that Daario is not so much about escapism as he is about Dany’s coming to terms with her “monster.”

I read this as escapism and that Dany was depressed and fatalistic about the prospect of marrying Hiz. I was going to contrast it with Jon's failed escapism and at the risk of inspiring another Nedbert thread even compare the Jon/Mance and Dany/Daario *sparring.* I still think there's some interesting material comparing Jon's poisoned childhood memories with Dany's not having any that can be poisoned.

I'm wondering if Butterbumps! is really on to something here. The Kindly Man's comments to Arya come to mind about the rareness of women in the FM because you either bring life into the world or take it out, not both. Dany's indecision and impulsive choices always bothered me. The staking 163 people followed by refusing to kill the hostages stands out most for me. This also fits with Dany wrestling with her monster. I think almost all of Dany's inconsistency can be explained by an internal struggle between mother and dragon. It is certainly a theme throughout but I'm wondering if it is the theme. Dany isn't indecisive; she's conflicted which leads to indecision. Meereen is as irreconcilable as Dany's inner conflict and her refusal to see Meereen's external aspects mirrors her internal blindness to the choice she must make.

She leaves Qarth realizing being a beggar turned Viserys into what he was and chooses to "conquer" Illyrio's ships instead of returning to him to beg. From that point on everything can be viewed as dragon vs mother, strength and conquering vs weakness and being sold. Dany is planning on selling herself to Hizdahr from a position of weakness to buy a peace she thinks she can't gain through strength and conquest and is packaging it as duty. In this light her apathy towards ruling just becomes the current expression of this inner conflict.

Even her musing about Daario start with power. "If only she had the power, she would have made their nights go on forever." She's envying Daario's ease of sleep and recalls him saying, "A warrior who cannot sleep soon has no strength to fight" which describes Dany's current state perfectly. She recalls telling Daario of "how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was haunted by the ghosts of all the knights he'd killed" which is exactly what haunts Dany. She is envying his abscence of a conscience while her conscience still sits at the heart of her mother/dragon dilemna.

Dany shows insight and perception here that does not translate into seemingly reasonable conclusions. She sees Daario would not want her if she were not Queen but never reaches the obvious conclusion that what Daario loves is not her. She easily sees he took bribes and that is why she asked him to hold court, she knows he would have stolen the gift or pretended it was his own and it does not bother her.

Dany could feel the anger in the hall. "I am only a young girl, and young girls must have their gifts," she said lightly. "Daario, please, you must not tease me. Give it here."

"I would speak to you about the presumption of a certain sellsword captain."

She dares say that in open court? Dany felt a blaze of anger.

With Daario she has her mother reaction and with the GG she has her dragon reaction. I think Daario serves as a surrogate for her inner monster. It is more that she is envious or living vicariously through Daario than that she is blinded by love. She sees him too clearly for an infatuation.

Daario gives her excellent counsel here:

"As my queen commands. Will you hold court today?"

"No. On the morrow I will be a woman wed, and Hizdahr will be king. Let him hold court. These are his people."

"Some are his, some are yours. The ones you freed."

"Are you chiding me?"

"The ones you call your children. They want their mother."

"You are. You are chiding me."

Daario happens to have the selfish reason of having taken a bribe from the Dornishmen but the advice is still sound. This is also interesting because up to this point Daario is almost exclusively a conqueror aspect and here he appeals to her mother aspect. I can't think of another case where Dany is "chided" in any way and does not go all "blood of the dragon" in response. Could Dany have made peace with her dragon aspect if she married a Daario-like figure, or her mother aspect if she married a conciliator figure like the son of Doran? Martin frequently has a duality diplomat/ruthless approach toward ruling. Doran/Oberyn, Tywin/Joanna/, Tywin/Kevan, and the various Kings/Hands. Viewing Dany as torn between the two fits in well with leadership portrayals throughout the book.

[Dacie]

Alright, so I'm no symbolism expert like some posters (side eyes Blisscraft ), but I'm going to attempt to add my two cents to the foot washing scene.

Traditionally we could look at this as Hizdar showing respect, that he is honoring Dany and demonstrating that he is the subservient partner. On closer look though, I wonder if it isn't actually the opposite.

He is washing Dany's feet. He is cleansing her of her past sins and anointing her into a new life, a life as his wife and a noble of Meereen. Who she was before is being wiped away so that she may come to him perfect and new and worthy.

Now I really think the talk with the GG about wedding customs was a ruse, that all along they wanted Dany to be the one being cleansed, atonement for her past sins, an admission that her previous life was wrong, and now she's deferring to her husband.

I really dislike religious talk, as we all have different beliefs, but the biblical undertones are strong with this one.

[eRome]

What a wonderful write-up. Definitely a parallel here. Both mothers died in childbirth too (well, we don't officially know if 1. Lyanna is Jon Snw's mother and 2. If she died in childbirth, but I think we can assume) Tyrion's mother died giving birth to him too, coincidence?

[Dr. Pepper]

Daario: “A queen loves where she must, not where she will.”

<snip>

I would give up my crown if he asked it of me, Dany thought … but he had not asked it, and never would....If I gave up my crown, he would not want me.

Daario is greedy, a murderer, a torturer, a manipulator. I don't think anyone would disagree. I respect the fact that Dany knows these things about Daario and made the choice to love and bed him anyway. I'm not quite so sure that Dany is right in thinking that Daario wouldn't want her if she gave up her crown. She's never asked him. Obviously he hasn't asked her, but why would he? What sort of love is it when one asks the other to give up a part of them? Being queen, a dragon queen, is part of Dany's identity. Yes, he asks her to marry him but when she declines his request, he still advises that she at least not marry Hizdahr without saying the he himself should be the replacement groom. All o fhis advice indicates that he's pretty much the only one in her council who believes in what she intended to accomplish in Slaver's Bay. He doesn't tell her to go and conquer Westeros (where more riches- in gold and plentiful lands - can be had), he doesn't tell her to extend her kingdom. He just tells her things she can do to make things right in the kingdom she's already claimed. I think he might know the dragons cannot be controlled, so he knows how tenuous her rule is without her superior weapons at her command. And still he stays. It's not like he hasn't proven unwilling to turn his cloak. He has when he brought his colleagues heads to her. But he knew that peace wouldn't last or even be realized even if Dany married Hizdahr and he didn't run away. He stayed even when he was offered as a hostage to the Yunkai'i. I don't think he has magical disappearing tricks, but I'm fairly certain that he would have found a way to escape if he wanted to especially as his head is on the line. I think that if she asked if he would still want her without a crown, he'd probably say yes.

Love as a Queen: A Lesson from Barristan

En route to the temple, Dany and Barristan talk of Dany’s parents. Barristan reveals that Rhaella loved a particular landed knight (Bonnifer Hasty from the clues), but “a landed knight is no fit consort for a princess of royal blood.” Though she doesn’t formally articulate the issues of class struggle, she does think: “And Daario Naharis is only a sellsword, not fit to buckle on the golden spurs of even a landed knight.”

In a different thread, someone made note that Dany doesn't actually know what it's like to be a slave, as in the type of slaves that she freed in Slaver's Bay. What she knows is something more similar to arranged political marriages that Westerosi nobles - male and female - experience. I find it disconcerting that she fails to realize how truly similar this marriage to Hizdahr is as her marriage to Khal Drogo was. They are both alliance-building unions. Where Viserys and Illyrio sold her to Khal Drogo, she is selling herself to Hizdahr. There's an interesting parallel here....where the slaves were sold by other people, Xaro notes that some are choosing to give themselves back to the institution of their own accord.

[kg1982]

What is interesting about the whole Dany Hizdahr situation is that Dany is taking the role of the King in the situation. Within Westros politics it is perfectly okay for the King to sleep with mistresses. King Bob whored his way across Westros. Aegon the Unworthy had official mistresses. It was perfectly okay for high lords and kings in Westros to have lots of sexual encounters and bastards. A queen like Rhaella couldn't sleep with her lover because she might conceive a bastard and that could lead to doubt in the royal line. Dany is flipping the idea on its head. She doesn't think that she can have children, so there aren't any succession concerns. Also, she really doesn't care that much even if she did have Daario's kids rather than Hidzhar's. I'd suspect that she wouldn't mind if he took a mistress himself, but would kill him because of the bed slaves. The chapter is all about gender politics and equality. What is wrong with Queen Regent Dany having a lover, especially considering this is a political marriage when men in this world flaunt their lovers? The Green Grace's objection would make sense if Hizdahr planned to remain faithful, but he was going to kill her as his Nana is the Harpy. Yes, she has really bad ideas about what makes a good lover - Daario, for real?? and is probably going to get betrayed by him when someone gives him enough gold. However, I cannot fault her on the taking a lover situation.

[Tagganaro]

Alright, so I'm no symbolism expert like some posters (side eyes Blisscraft ), but I'm going to attempt to add my two cents to the foot washing scene.

Traditionally we could look at this as Hizdar showing respect, that he is honoring Dany and demonstrating that he is the subservient partner. On closer look though, I wonder if it isn't actually the opposite.

He is washing Dany's feet. He is cleansing her of her past sins and anointing her into a new life, a life as his wife and a noble of Meereen. Who she was before is being wiped away so that she may come to him perfect and new and worthy.

Now I really think the talk with the GG about wedding customs was a ruse, that all along they wanted Dany to be the one being cleansed, atonement for her past sins, an admission that her previous life was wrong, and now she's deferring to her husband.

I really dislike religious talk, as we all have different beliefs, but the biblical undertones are strong with this one.

Well, you may not be a symbolism expert but you seem to be doing fine to me :cool4:. Feet have such a wide array of symbolic significance in literature. I'd say the most prevalent is mobility (for obvious reasons). Here, Dany's marriage basically represents being jailed yet again, as DP said. She has given up on her dream to go back to Westeros in the immediate future (as Barry + Quentyn are urging) and is resigned to stay in Mereen (a place that it is becoming clear she absolutely despises). It's in this way I believe that Daario can come to represent both her inner monster and escapism- Actually it could be argued that they are one in the same. This cuts to the core of her identity problem imo- As the Kindly Man quote quoted above, Dany can either be a dragon or a mother but not both. Thus far, she's sticking (somewhat ignorantly I might add, but also somewhat endearingly) to this notion that she can be a mother at the same time she has chained up her actual children in the basement (figuratively and literally). It's a difficult dichotomy to pull off, and she is not remotely succeeding.

Obviously there are other symbolic meanings to bare feet. The other two most significant are soul (something like sole=soul) and innocence. Likewise, as you have convincingly argued, Dany is basically scrubbing her past (and her future) clean. She might be quite literally said to be "wiping her hands clean" of freeing the slaves and making any kind of impactful change on Mereen and Slaver's Bay for that matter.

Daario is greedy, a murderer, a torturer, a manipulator. I don't think anyone would disagree. I respect the fact that Dany knows these things about Daario and made the choice to love and bed him anyway. I'm not quite so sure that Dany is right in thinking that Daario wouldn't want her if she gave up her crown. She's never asked him. Obviously he hasn't asked her, but why would he? What sort of love is it when one asks the other to give up a part of them? Being queen, a dragon queen, is part of Dany's identity. Yes, he asks her to marry him but when she declines his request, he still advises that she at least not marry Hizdahr without saying the he himself should be the replacement groom. All o fhis advice indicates that he's pretty much the only one in her council who believes in what she intended to accomplish in Slaver's Bay. He doesn't tell her to go and conquer Westeros (where more riches- in gold and plentiful lands - can be had), he doesn't tell her to extend her kingdom. He just tells her things she can do to make things right in the kingdom she's already claimed. I think he might know the dragons cannot be controlled, so he knows how tenuous her rule is without her superior weapons at her command. And still he stays. It's not like he hasn't proven unwilling to turn his cloak. He has when he brought his colleagues heads to her. But he knew that peace wouldn't last or even be realized even if Dany married Hizdahr and he didn't run away. He stayed even when he was offered as a hostage to the Yunkai'i. I don't think he has magical disappearing tricks, but I'm fairly certain that he would have found a way to escape if he wanted to especially as his head is on the line. I think that if she asked if he would still want her without a crown, he'd probably say yes.

Now this is very interesting. I have to respectfully disagree. You do make good convincing points about it though. I do believe Daario is loyal so far as he is "fucking the dragon" as he quite succinctly put it :dunno: . But I don't believe this loyalty would extend had Dany decided to give up her crown and no longer existed as a Dragon Queen. Granted, there's not much evidence either way admittedly (which speaks to how poorly Daario is generally written as a character (very cipher-ish imo). I think the advice as he gives it is meant to "wake the Dragon" so to speak. That's what he was and is attracted to. Anyway, you do make persuasive points, and it occurs that I don't really have much to rebut them as of the moment. Ill be back lol.

I read this as escapism and that Dany was depressed and fatalistic about the prospect of marrying Hiz. I was going to contrast it with Jon's failed escapism and at the risk of inspiring another Nedbert thread even compare the Jon/Mance and Dany/Daario *sparring.* I still think there's some interesting material comparing Jon's poisoned childhood memories with Dany's not having any that can be poisoned.

Where is WK? We need to start a Jon/Mance thread right away haha. Jance? Mancon? To get serious though, this is a good point. It sort of makes me feel bad for Jon- At least Dany has Daario to escape a little and have fun. The fact that Jon is resorting to getting his ass kicked is a little dangerous. That's a short leap to BDSM and bondage type stuff lol.

I'm wondering if Butterbumps! is really on to something here. The Kindly Man's comments to Arya come to mind about the rareness of women in the FM because you either bring life into the world or take it out, not both. Dany's indecision and impulsive choices always bothered me. The staking 163 people followed by refusing to kill the hostages stands out most for me. This also fits with Dany wrestling with her monster. I think almost all of Dany's inconsistency can be explained by an internal struggle between mother and dragon. It is certainly a theme throughout but I'm wondering if it is the theme. Dany isn't indecisive; she's conflicted which leads to indecision. Meereen is as irreconcilable as Dany's inner conflict and her refusal to see Meereen's external aspects mirrors her internal blindness to the choice she must make.

Yes, I agree. Dany is remarkably inconsistent throughout the end of ASOS and ADWD. Perhaps this is really what happens- She's very comfortable being Aegon the conqueror with teats but not so comfortable being Mother Theresa. I think this is really it as we seem to have settled on- Dany's chapters are all about identity and her Dragon persona versus her Mother Rabbit persona. 3 guesses as to which one she would have been better off going with in Mereen...

Great find with the Kindly Man quote. I had forgotten about that, but it does fit rather perfectly. It has been speculated immensely that Arya is fated to end up with Dany rather soon in the next book, so maybe it's not just a coincidence that the Kindly Man hits Dany's problem right on the head. In fact, Dany's problem is essentially Arya's problem as well. Dragon/Rabbit v. No one/Night Wolf?

She leaves Qarth realizing being a beggar turned Viserys into what he was and chooses to "conquer" Illyrio's ships instead of returning to him to beg. From that point on everything can be viewed as dragon vs mother, strength and conquering vs weakness and being sold. Dany is planning on selling herself to Hizdahr from a position of weakness to buy a peace she thinks she can't gain through strength and conquest and is packaging it as duty. In this light her apathy towards ruling just becomes the current expression of this inner conflict.

Yes. I think the really watershed moment is end of ASOS where she has conquered Mereen and everyone's going "Where next?" and she decides to stay, to "plant olive trees". As she's about to realize, a Dragon plants no trees.

With Daario she has her mother reaction and with the GG she has her dragon reaction. I think Daario serves as a surrogate for her inner monster. It is more that she is envious or living vicariously through Daario than that she is blinded by love. She sees him too clearly for an infatuation.

Daario happens to have the selfish reason of having taken a bribe from the Dornishmen but the advice is still sound. This is also interesting because up to this point Daario is almost exclusively a conqueror aspect and here he appeals to her mother aspect. I can't think of another case where Dany is "chided" in any way and does not go all "blood of the dragon" in response. Could Dany have made peace with her dragon aspect if she married a Daario-like figure, or her mother aspect if she married a conciliator figure like the son of Doran? Martin frequently has a duality diplomat/ruthless approach toward ruling. Doran/Oberyn, Tywin/Joanna/, Tywin/Kevan, and the various Kings/Hands. Viewing Dany as torn between the two fits in well with leadership portrayals throughout the book.

I just picked up on this on reread, but yes, it is very interesting to witness the separate responses she has to Daario and GG. I'm not sure I have much to say about it that you haven't said, but when I realized this I was rather surprised pleasantly to see Dany finally getting angry with the GG aka The Harpy. Who the heck is the GG to even presume to lecture Dany about that? Man, I really wish Dany just decided to feed her to the Dragons here.

Two things that haven't been touched on that I wanted to add to the discussion-

1. Dany's aside about Quentyn the enchanted frog prince- Obviously we all know this fairy tale as well as the Westerosi do apparently. I'm not sure I really understand Dany's reaction though- For all intents and purposes Quentyn is "enchanted" imo. All she has to do is kiss him and he becomes a prince of Dorne and possibly her the Queen with "50 thousand spears" helping them out. I think this again hammers out the theme to the chapters we've been discussing. Here, Daario might be said to represent the id, Quentyn the fairytale escape, and Hizdahr jail. Interesting that Dany chooses jail. What makes this even more interesting is at this point Dany no longer even really identifies with the Mereeneese people, even the freed ones. Daario has to all but beg her just to show up at court and listen to them. Yet she won't take Quentyn or Daario's offer to escape, and instead feels obligated to prolong her misery. Very interesting, not really sure what she is thinking here. It'd be one thing if she still seemed to be interested in her "children", but she really doesn't for the most part at this point.

2. I like the addition of the stories about Rhaella and Aerys. I couldn't think of more opposite personalities than Ser Bonifer Hasty and Daario, but there is certainly something to be said for the similarities between Dany's position and Rhaella's. How about Aerys/Joanna though? Not really clear how that applies- Maybe Dany is Aerys and as has been discussed briefly, Daario is Joanna. As Ragnorak just said above, Dany's reaction to Daario pissing her off is remarkably restrained compared to GG. Maybe Joanna could have had a similar effect on Aerys? Anyway, I like how the stories are almost included just to drive home the point- This is not going to be a pleasant marriage between Dany and Hizdahr.

[Ben amido]

I just think that Jon isn't the great, visionary leader that some posters seem to think he is. Otherwise he wouldn't have ended up getting the Caesar treatment. The fun part is trying to figure out where he failed.

I think what you are saying is wrong.

cuz first of all jon is a good leader and the incident of what happens with the knives.... well that what happens when idiots feel there way of life is threatened

and they react irrationally but like many in this forum have tried to point out there may be conspiracy theories regarding the whole knives incident.

On the other note regarding mance's retrieval of arya, jon should have asked exactly what was mance's plan.!

[Ragnorak]

@Tagganaro

Love the fairytale escape metaphor

The opening candle image reminded me of the "out out brief candle" soliloquy from Macbeth. It also had the feel of running out of time. Dany is making a mistake and is running out of time to change her mind. Westeros is ripe for the taking, Aegon is on his way, and she's running out of time to take advantage. A candle is fire-- Dany's symbol. The flame is guttering and eventually drowns in its own fuel.

"The wedding?" He laughed. "Marry me instead."

"You know I cannot do that."

"You are a queen. You can do what you like."

If I could, I would. Khal Drogo had been her sun-and-stars

Seven save me. Why couldn' t he be better born?

Khal Drogo is as lowborn as it gets-- a savage. Drogo's birth didn't ever bother her in hindsight, why suddenly does Daario's? Dany could do as she likes it would just mean war. Her actual and symbolic choice is the same.

Daario tempts her with love and conquering, Barristan and the Dornish tempt her with Westeros, Missendei tries to persuade her as a friend. Her three denials brought the biblical three denials to mind with the feet washing scene but I think that's an imperfect fit. Is Dany committing the three treasons herself with the three denials? Are the three marriage offers her three treasons? Seems significant for the child of threes.

Dany has such limited experience compared to the rest of the characters. She has no friends, never knew her mother or father, was never taught by the anti-prophesy philosophy of a maester, and has never attended a wedding or witnessed a married couple interact in any meaningful way. Her only marriage experience is Drogo and her only internal marriage musings were Viserys. Any other character approaching a marriage would reflect on their mother and father, the potential marriage prospects that visited the castle while they were growing up, Dany has none of that.

Shefound herself remembering her nightmare. Sometimes there is truth in dreams. Could Hizdahr zo Loraq be working for the warlocks, was that what the dream had meant? Could the dream have been a sending? Were the gods telling her to put Hizdahr aside and wed this Dornish prince instead?

Something tickled at her memory. "Ser Barristan, what are the arms of House Martell?"

"A sun in splendor, transfixed by a spear."

The sun' s son. A shiver went through her. "Shadows and whispers."

Any other character would find themselves remembering other marriages and their consequences. Does prophesy fill that gap? Instead of thinking about which candidate she can marry she turns to a prophesy to tell her what to do. Does she always turn to prophesy when another character turns to a life experience? She is adept enough to put the prophesy together; if only she had applied herself to analyzing her options.

“These are my people. I am their rightful queen.”

"All kneel for Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Khaleesi of Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Shackles and Mother of Dragons"

None of them are actually Dany's people-- unless she reconquers them. In fact two of those "people" fled Valyrian wrath only to be conquered by the last dragon riders after the Doom. The closest thing to a people Dany actually has are the slavers in Volantis. Whoever her people end up being will be a matter of her choice and actions rather than longstanding bloodlines.

The Quentyn marriage offer is interesting because of why Doran planned it. Doran remembers the lesson of the children at the Water Gardens and chose to plot with the marriage pact instead of going to war over Elia. The Water Gardens are the ultimate mother symbol and it was the previous Daenerys who they were built for that opened them up to all the children and created that lesson. The "mother" lesson of a previous Daenerys stayed Doran's "dragon" and brought Quentyn to her doorstep.

[Winter's Knight]

Tagganaro, your request is duly noted.

Everyone here is talking about how Dany needs to choose between her Dragon and Mother persona. Personally, I believe that there are two misconceptions in that statement:

1. That the two are mutually exclusive. Dragons are mothers as well and she needs to realise this. There are other in-story examples for this: Cat is almost feral when her children are in danger and Cersei's maternal instincts need no introduction. She needs to understand that she must be a she-dragon, defending her nest. She must be strong, ferocious and unwilling to compromise where her children are concerned. She also needs to realise who these children are-the poor, the down-trodden, the wronged ones, the people who have nowhere else to go,no one to turn to. And she must understand that these include the free as well as the slaves-the boy who tripped over his tokar was as much her child as well as the former slave Missndei.
   
2. The other is that she is embodying either of these roles.
   

As to the chapter in hand:

“Liar. I can see your eyes. Could I do that if it were the black of night?” Daario kicked loose of the coverlets and sat up. “The half-light. Day will be here soon.”

I have heard that in some myths, dragons have excellent eyesight whether it is day or night but in the twilight hour, they are blind. Half-light confuses them.

Dany is similarly trapped in a half-light between conquerer and ruler, and is trapped in a city that is in transition from night to day.

he tokar was not a garment meant for horseback.

Horses represent freedom, virility, power and war.

In one aspect of Native American symbol meanings of the horse comes with the understanding that the wild freedom of the horse can be harnessed and used to the benefit of the tribe. This understanding comes only when man and beast enter a silent contract – acknowledging mutual respect and awareness of responsibility to each other.

The tokar is not made for Dany-she cannot even don it on her own and like the palaquins, it requires her to use other people. It is a symbol of decandent dependence-a show that the wearer is rich enough to not even need to dress on his/her own.

It was always dusk inside the base of the Great Pyramid. Walls thirty feet thick muffled thetumult of the streets and kept the heat outside, so it was cool and dim within. Her escort was formingup inside the gates.

Here the "half light" is once again evoked, this time to describe the Pyramid itself-muffling her ears and dimming her eyes to the reality outside. The other times she's gone outside, she had a palanquin-bearer taken care of and visited those sick with the Pale Mare.

The chapter ends with the Dragon Queen chained again, trapped by her enemies in the treacherous half-light.