Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[butterbumps!]

This is a super dense chapter with a lot of significant quotes. To prevent an egregious length, I’m making this quote-heavy, but truncating my own analysis.

Dany VII

Overview

This chapter opens just before dawn two days before Dany’s wedding to Hizdhar. Dany hasn’t slept, but broods sadly as Daario sleeps beside her. When he wakes, he tells her that some Dornishmen came to him with a “gift” for her, and tries to talk her into holding court that day. When he leaves, she goes to her terrace to survey Meereen thinking, “It will never be my city. It will never be my home.” She stays in her chambers for the rest of the day and night.

The next day she holds court for the first time in a long while, so there is an overwhelming number of petitioners. The Green Grace comes forward to talk about Dany’s impropriety regarding Daario; Dany blows it off and pretends she’s referring to Ben Plum’s treason. Toward evening, Daario brings in the Windblown who defected and the Dornishmen. She clears out the court at the Dornishmen’s request, and they reveal themselves to be Gerris Drinkwater, Archibald Yronwood and Quentyn. Quentyn shows her a marriage pact that was signed by Willem Darry and Oberyn, promising Viserys to Arianne with the presumption that Dany might marry him instead. Dany declines the offer.

That night she and Daario stay awake and have a particularly vigorous romp. It’s the morning of her wedding to Hizdhar, and before he leaves, Daario tries to coax Dany into marrying him instead. He vows to bring her Ben Plumm’s head at her wedding feast. She readies herself for the ceremony, is dressed in a tokar, and a sedan chair is prepared for her trip to the wedding. Quentyn asks her to reconsider one last time, and then she is paraded through the streets to the temple. Along the way, Dany asks Barristan questions about her parents, but their conversation is cut short as Hizdhar’s caravan joins them. At the entrance of the temple, Hizdhar washes Dany’s feet before going into the four-hour ceremony.

Observations

• On Dany and Daario’s last night together, she dreams that “Hizdhar was kissing her…but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.”
  
• After holding court later that day she thinks that “Sometimes there is truth in dreams. Could Hizdhar zo Loraq be working for the warlocks, was that what the dream was telling her?...Were the gods telling her to put Hizdhar aside and wed this Dornish prince instead?” When she learns of the Martell sigil and connects it to Quaithe’s warning of the “Sun’s son,” she seems further resolved not to marry Quentyn.
  
• Whenever Daario leaves her, her appetite is gone as well.
  

Analysis

Daario: “A queen loves where she must, not where she will.”

Daario is one of the more controversial elements of Dany’s arc on here. My take on Daario is that he’s a positive influence on Dany in terms of reawakening her identity. He’s strong, bold and bloodthirsty, things that Dany admires in others (Drogo, for example), and sees in herself as well. He’s the one person in Meereen who shares her “inner dragon,” and I see them as two kindred spirits. I think that she wants to be the bold conqueror, unafraid to take what is hers, but along the way has repressed this drive in favor of the idea that she must be peaceful and loved. Daario’s raw violence begins to tap into Dany’s “dragon,” bringing her closer to finally embracing this conqueror mentality: “I was dead and he brought me back to life. I was asleep and he woke me.”

I’m going to posit that Daario is not so much about escapism as he is about Dany’s coming to terms with her “monster.” If anything, I think that the floppy ears and her Meereen campaign are the escapes for her- it’s allowing her to procrastinate to finally accept her “dragon.”

She’s torn between love and duty, and also recognizes that Daario’s love for her has a causal relationship to her power:

“If she had been an ordinary woman, she would gladly have spent her whole life touching Daario…I would give up my crown if he asked it of me…but he had not asked it and never would…she knew it was the dragon queen he loved. If I gave up my crown, he would not want me.”

I find this exchange quite interesting. Dany accuses Daario of chiding her, but he’s absolutely right here. Dany’s not willing to follow through with the responsibilities of ruling, happy to pawn that duty off to Hiz. Daario is telling her that if she no longer appears in a leadership capacity to the people, Hiz will siphon off all her power:

When she appeals to the fact that she must marry Hiz for the sake of Meereen, he says “You are a queen. You can do what you like.” He’s telling her not to give into this shaky alliance, but to vanquish her foes and write her own rules as Queen, which would allow her to marry whomever she pleased.

[Dacie]

Jon gets too involved with Stannis because it helps him extract personal vengeance for the Starks. It didn't serve the Night's Watch's purposes for Jon to do Stannis's battle planning and remain on Team Stannis! In fact, it makes it harder for him to get stronger factions on board. Yes Stan defended the Wall, but he really is on his quest for the Iron Throne again by the end of the book. Jon sent Mance after Arya, which didn't serve any purpose for the NW and was the actual impetus for the Pink Letter.

With a lot of respects, Jon's focus on Winterfell and his family rather than the greater good leads to the chaos on the Wall in the last chapter. It's a rerun of some of the conflicts he faced in AGOT, but he sent everyon who kept him from doing something stupid away and as LC, his actions end up adversely affecting the NW as a whole.

Is Jon a perfect leader? No. Is he still attached to Winterfell and his family? Of course.

But to say that he isn't focused on the greater good is completely false. He's the only one who is! His main focus is on rebuilding the strength of the NW, being able to garrison the old forts, learning as much about the Others and the wights as possible.

And what would be for the greater good for the Watch? To seal off the Wall, allow thousands more Wildlings to become wights? Or to try to move as many to this side of the Wall as possible, to help defend against the attack?

[kg1982]

Yep he is, but then he gets distracted by Winterfell and his family. I think that lots of Jon's main mistakes come from that. He's initially focused on his main task and then something involving his family, Winterfell, Stannis, etc. that gets in the way.

[butterbumps!]

Jon gets too involved with Stannis because it helps him extract personal vengeance for the Starks. It didn't serve the Night's Watch's purposes for Jon to do Stannis's battle planning and remain on Team Stannis! In fact, it makes it harder for him to get stronger factions on board. Yes Stan defended the Wall, but he really is on his quest for the Iron Throne again by the end of the book. Jon sent Mance after Arya, which didn't serve any purpose for the NW and was the actual impetus for the Pink Letter.

With a lot of respects, Jon's focus on Winterfell and his family rather than the greater good leads to the chaos on the Wall in the last chapter. It's a rerun of some of the conflicts he faced in AGOT, but he sent everyon who kept him from doing something stupid away and as LC, his actions end up adversely affecting the NW as a whole.

As Lykos points out, the Warden of the North is supposed to have a cooperative relationship with the Wall. The current Wardens aren't doing their duty, and it hurts the Watch. By removing Arya, the Boltons would have no claim to this position, and this vacuum would offer a more responsible family to step in (i.e. one who has remained loyal). Having a cooperative relationship with Winterfell is in the best interests of the Watch, and from there, the Realm. He's on Team Stannis! not because he's in love with the guy or wants to exact petty revenges, but because Stannis is the only one who has taken the problems at the Wall and at Winterfell as serious threats to the realm, and as such, Jon sees that the success of the Watch hinges on Stannis' success.

Also, in each chapter, Jon thinks about vengeance less and less. Honestly, I don't believe that it is a motivating factor for him at this point. Defending Winterfell is best for the Watch and the Realm, and it just happens to align with the interests of his former family. It's kind of like the sublime convergence of factors behind beheading Slynt.

[Maia]

As Lykos points out, the Warden of the North is supposed to have a cooperative relationship with the Wall.

If so, then Starks have failed grieviously, too. Robb left all the NW's pleas adressed to him unanswered and it only occurred to him to organize influx of manpower to them when he wanted to get Jon out.

The current Wardens aren't doing their duty, and it hurts the Watch.

The current Warden was in the south due to the orders of the previous warden. And once he got North, the Wall was closed to him due to the presence of pretender there.

By removing Arya, the Boltons would have no claim to this position, and this vacuum would offer a more responsible family to step in (i.e. one who has remained loyal).

How were loyal families more responsible? They didn't come, did they? And Robb knew about the wildling threat when he marched south in the first place and when he chose to remain there.

Stannis is the only one who has taken the problems at the Wall and at Winterfell as serious threats to the realm, and as such, Jon sees that the success of the Watch hinges on Stannis' success.

Stannis came and helped, but his continued presence prevents NW from getting help from the rest of the North. Helping him to ally with mountain clans also diverted resources that could have helped to defend the Wall. In fact, the whole in-fighting between Stannis and Boltons is a huge waste of resources and manpower in the light of the threat of the Others. If not for Ramsey, I'd have said that Jon's advice to Stannis was detrimental to the North and NW, because, once convincingly apprised of the danger, Bolton could have been much more effective than Stannis, being a northman and a capable one at that. Yes, terrible person, but then some Kings of Winter did terrible things too, as we know since AGOT.

Defending Winterfell is best for the Watch and the Realm, and it just happens to align with the interests of his former family. It's kind of like the sublime convergence of factors behind beheading Slynt.

Too convenient, isn't it? Marsh and Co. are supposed to put aside their hatred of wildlings, but events conspire so that Jon is downright required to (help) put down people he hates ;).

Re: Dany VII:

Sigh. It is seriously discouraging that her arc is presented in this way. I mean, she is not even trying to learn something in structured manner or to make any kind of plans, however unrealistic. And she doesn't know sigils of paramount Houses? Really? Barristan should have seen that she needs to learn some heraldry, surely?

It is not _what_ Dany does, because for the most part she doesn't have many options unless she is willing to commit horrific betrayal of her freedmen _or_ a bloodbath of the good masters - and the fate of Astapor is not encouraging in that regard.

I kind of agree with one of the characters from Boardwalk Empire that if you don't have a move, you need to wait until you have one and then bet it all. And that's what Dany is doing - she is more or less in holding pattern. And it's OK, really.

No, it isn't _what_ she does, but how she does it and how she seems to regress. Yes, depression, belated realization of the enormity of the task and no clue where to start, etc., I understand it. I don't even mind Daario. I just don't have any sense of inner progression. Hopefully, in TWoW Dany actually analyzes her dark night of the soul period and takes active steps to avoid repetition of it.

Re: female deities being indicative of anything, let's remember Athens. Worshipped primarily a female deity, yet had the most misogynistic culture in Hellenistic Greece. So, the Harpy being female doesn't mean much, IMHO.

[Winter's Knight]

Re: female deities being indicative of anything, let's remember Athens. Worshipped primarily a female deity, yet had the most misogynistic culture in Hellenistic Greece. So, the Harpy being female doesn't mean much, IMHO.

The Dothraki worship a Mother Goddess as well.

[The Snow King]

If so, then Starks have failed grieviously, too. Robb left all the NW's pleas adressed to him unanswered and it only occurred to him to organize influx of manpower to them when he wanted to get Jon out.

I would disagree here. Robb went to war, and when things got really ugly at the Wall, the Starks did not control North anymore due to the loss of Winterfell - in fact were cut off from it. And then Robb died. There was really not that much he could do, in the circumstances. Except, of course, not go to war in the first place, but that's quite a different story.

[butterbumps!]

If so, then Starks have failed grieviously, too. Robb left all the NW's pleas adressed to him unanswered and it only occurred to him to organize influx of manpower to them when he wanted to get Jon out.

Yes. I have said elsewhere that Robb's march south came at the expense of attention to his Northern duties. But I'd also add that Bran, under the guidance of Luwen, was left at Winterfell after Robb left. No one expected Theon the Dolt to invade (well, Cat sort of did).

The current Warden was in the south due to the orders of the previous warden. And once he got North, the Wall was closed to him due to the presence of pretender there.

I don't know what to say. Roose betrayed the Starks, and hasn't shown any indications of being concerned about the Wall. Is Stannis the "pretender"? I'm not sure I follow- are you suggesting that if Stannis weren't at the Wall, then the Boltons would send aid to the Wall? I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Stannis' presence obstructed the otherwise good intentions to aid the Watch on the part of the Boltons.

How were loyal families more responsible? They didn't come, did they? And Robb knew about the wildling threat when he marched south in the first place and when he chose to remain there.

The other families couldn't come because they are being variously coerced into "good behavior" by the Boltons. Before that, they were commanded to march to war. My logic is this: Stannis scours Winterfell and holds it with a family loyal to the Starks/ one that takes the responsibilities of Winterfell seriously. Manderly sounds like a pretty good candidate, especially as he is producing Rickon. I guess I'm not sure what your objections are. There are a number of Northmen loyal to the Starks who would hold Winterfell and respect the position in the absence of a Stark.

Stannis came and helped, but his continued presence prevents NW from getting help from the rest of the North. Helping him to ally with mountain clans also diverted resources that could have helped to defend the Wall. In fact, the whole in-fighting between Stannis and Boltons is a huge waste of resources and manpower in the light of the threat of the Others. If not for Ramsey, I'd have said that Jon's advice to Stannis was detrimental to the North and NW, because, once convincingly apprised of the danger, Bolton could have been much more effective than Stannis, being a northman and a capable one at that. Yes, terrible person, but then some Kings of Winter did terrible things too, as we know since AGOT.

Sometimes you have to break eggs to make an omelette. What happens when the growing number of clansmen and other Stark loyalists divert resources to the Wall? The Boltons see it as a move against their power and attack the Wall and these Northmen directly. Instead, Stannis rallies the North first to take out the big threat that are the Boltons, then the whole North is unified and on the same page to deal with whatever is beyond the Wall. This is a more sustainable solution, imo. And given the chaos Roose has been causing, I'm not buying that he'd be more capable of defending the North than Stannis.

Re: Dany VII:

Sigh. It is seriously discouraging that her arc is presented in this way. I mean, she is not even trying to learn something in structured manner or to make any kind of plans, however unrealistic. And she doesn't know sigils of paramount Houses? Really? Barristan should have seen that she needs to learn some heraldry, surely?

It is not _what_ Dany does, because for the most part she doesn't have many options unless she is willing to commit horrific betrayal of her freedmen _or_ a bloodbath of the good masters - and the fate of Astapor is not encouraging in that regard.

I kind of agree with one of the characters from Boardwalk Empire that if you don't have a move, you need to wait until you have one and then bet it all. And that's what Dany is doing - she is more or less in holding pattern. And it's OK, really.

No, it isn't _what_ she does, but how she does it and how she seems to regress. Yes, depression, belated realization of the enormity of the task and no clue where to start, etc., I understand it. I don't even mind Daario. I just don't have any sense of inner progression. Hopefully, in TWoW Dany actually analyzes her dark night of the soul period and takes active steps to avoid repetition of it.

Re: female deities being indicative of anything, let's remember Athens. Worshipped primarily a female deity, yet had the most misogynistic culture in Hellenistic Greece. So, the Harpy being female doesn't mean much, IMHO.

I hope I didn't present her too negatively :cool4: -- you meant her arc as written by Martin, right?

I know that the Harpy on its own doesn't point one way or another, but the fact that the most powerful people in Meereen seem to be the (female) Graces, it just made me wonder if they had a different cultural meaning to the foot washing.

[Ragnorak]

I think there's some difference in assumptions regarding the Wall and Winterfell. Coming to the aid of the Wall in the case of an attack or threat is one thing, but maintaining troop levels at the Wall are another. Winterfell is the primary backup for the NW but it isn't Winterfell's job to supply troops to the Watch. Ned says:

“Ben writes that the strength of the Night’s Watch is down below a thousand. It’s not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well.”

“Is it the wildlings?” she asked.

“Who else?” Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. “And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all.”

Ned is contemplating attacking Mance and his Wildling army as Warden of the North/ Lord of Winterfell. He is not considering supplementing the Watch's manpower with Northern troops. The North is no more and no less obligated than the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to supply the Wall with men. The NW was 10,000 strong 300 years ago-- coincidentally about the time of Aegon's conquest. I think the state of the Watch has more to do with Targaryen rule than Stark rule. The troop level of the Watch is an Iron Throne responsibility not Winterfell's. I think even before Targ rule all Houses sent men to the Wall the same way they sent them to the Citadel. That Shield Hall is a testament to the honor it was to serve in the Watch.

IIRC Robb was in the Westerlands when the plea from the Watch came out and the Ironmen had already attacked. How Robb would of responded to the plea is an unknown because he never made it back North and Winterfell was lost to him already when he got the plea. Also Jon was only a member of the Watch, not LC when he wanted to offer 100 men to replace Jon. It was a trade to get Jon not an offer of reinforcements.

When Jon is dealing with Stannis he says to himself that the Watch takes no part, Bolton or Baratheon shouldn't matter. He then thinks to himself "words are not swords." I can understand thinking he's rationalizing and blurring the line but not overtly siding with Stannis. The advice he gives Stannis wins him the Wildlings Stannis was going to take. Both Jon and Stannis got men out of that deal; it was not a purely "help Stannis" decision.

I agree with all the reasons stated as to why Jon didn't go to Winterfell, but I think it would have made for one spectacular read if he did.

[Winterfellian]

Butterbumps thank you for the great review. There is so much to look at in this chapter, so here are just some of my thoughts

Dany and the Usurper

I was amazed by how much Dany is resembling Robert Baratheon in this chapter. Is ironic that 2 characters that hated his guts (Cercei and Dany) started to resemble him in more ways than one once they gained power.

What drove me to draw this parallel is that with this chapter I came to a realization of something that had been on my mind for a while now- Just like Robert, Dany does not want to rule. I think she expressed it as much with this line:

I will give up my crown if he (Daario) asked me to

This thought is beyond escapism or wishful thinking. What surprised me is that when Xaro offered her the 13 ships to sail to Westeros she refused. This was clearly a way out and she didn’t take it and now she’s thinking she would give up the crown, but nor for her seven kingdoms, but for Daario.

What Dany wants is some sort of resemblance of home, which Daario represents at the moment and that even if she doesn’t admit it to herself, Westeros simply isn’t.

We are faced with the recurrent theme in Robert’s story, conquering and ruling are 2 different things. Just later on the same chapter we find out that it’s been a while since she held court (again, like Robert) and even when she does is only after Daario told her to.

Dany strike me as the sort of person that lives too much in the future (not in a good way) and in what if scenarios, like Robert. In the first case, she is waiting to hold court again until she marries Hizdahr and there is peace. When looking at all the siege machinery the Yunkai are building up she desperately muses: Hizdahr will bring me peace. He must.

This along with her decision to withhold holding court shows that she’s sort of in a state of complete stagnation waiting for this “peace” and not doing much anything. This sort of attitude speaks of a person that thinks that there is no point in acting now if there is a chance that we can wait until the problem is solved and start anew.

Like Robert, she is hiding in her own way behind what if scenarios. Robert excused his failures as a king in Lyannas’s death. He rationalized that he would have done a better job had Lyanna and not Cercei had been his wife (just to clarify, am not arguing this would have been the case). Dany, we see, is starting to rationalize her own failures behind:

It (Mereen) will never be my city. It will never be my home

Later she gazes longingly at the Westerosi and thinks

These are my people. I am their rightful queen.

Her attitude here is very similar with her attitude involving the prophecies. The same way she uses prophecy as an excuse when something bad happens instead of analyzing how could her actions brought the misfortune upon her, she is now using the same principle to excuse her failures as a queen. Instead of analyzing what is causing her to fail in Meereen like lack of preparation and such she is adopting a posture that seems to say I am failing but is because these are not my people not because anything am doing wrong.

These are his people:

When he (Jon) looked across the grove at the women with her child, the two greybeards, the hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all se saw was men.

On the morrow I will be a woman wed, and Hizdahr will be king. Let him hold court. These are his people

These 2 quotes evidenced one of the more contrasting points on how Jon and Dany view the people under their respective rules. We talked on the last Jon chapter how much Jon had evolved by coming to terms that black brothers, spear wives, hornfoot men, etc are all men and all of them equally deserve protection.

Dany is still stuck in the same place she was at the beginning of the book- unable to come to the realization Jon already have: Men are only men. Whether they are freemen, slavers, wildings, nobles, etc. I think the problem is that Dany has this preconceived illusions of freeing slaves, centering herself as this messianic heroic figure and the slavers are all monsters she’s freeing children from to later become their mother. In a way it reminds me of the songs Sansa liked so much. The reason she’s still holding on to this illusions is because questioning them means she will have to question if her own role is clearly that of a hero, or even her own importance which isn’t something she’s prepared to do so she’s holding on to this illusion instead of seeing reality.

Jon on the other hand has no delusions about him being a savior to anyone and so is able to appreciate people for what they are, not for whom he wants them to be or for whom he needs them to be in order for him to be the hero.

[kg1982]

A few points on Jon and the Boltons..

1. The North doesn't understand the entire threat of the Others. Having the LC come and personally plead for their help at a major event might give them a sense of the danger. Jon could also focus on the Wildling attack rather than the supernatural zombies.

2. There's nothing to suggest that Roose would say no to a request. He doesn't want to be seen as the Warden who let the North be overrun by Wildlings. It could also benefit him politically by occupying some families that aren't loyal to him. Manderlay?? The Mormonts??

3. Arya had personal benefit to Jon, but it has no benefit for the NW. The way that it happens ends up directly implicating the LC and by extension the NW instead. Jon and the NW received the full blowback. Even if it had succeeded, Jon would still have to face Stannis; I'm sure that Stan would have been pleased to know that Mance was still alive.

4. I think that Jon's dilemma is easier to empathize with than Dany's because it is all about family. It's hard not to root for Jon to save his sister and get the bad guys who killed his family. But those actions conflict with his duties as the LC. It's a fairly classic leadership dilemma/ trope. Do you save your loved ones or do you serve the greater good?

[Julian Rayne]

I think one reason for Jon's more egalitarian view of "men" comes from the presence of an external enemy. As fas as Daenerys knows, there's no inhuman enemy threatening her.

For Jon, the distinction between "men" and "non-men" is extremely Stark, while for Daenerys, both her allies and her foes are men.

[Tagganaro]

Daario: “A queen loves where she must, not where she will.”

Daario is one of the more controversial elements of Dany’s arc on here. My take on Daario is that he’s a positive influence on Dany in terms of reawakening her identity. He’s strong, bold and bloodthirsty, things that Dany admires in others (Drogo, for example), and sees in herself as well. He’s the one person in Meereen who shares her “inner dragon,” and I see them as two kindred spirits. I think that she wants to be the bold conqueror, unafraid to take what is hers, but along the way has repressed this drive in favor of the idea that she must be peaceful and loved. Daario’s raw violence begins to tap into Dany’s “dragon,” bringing her closer to finally embracing this conqueror mentality: “I was dead and he brought me back to life. I was asleep and he woke me.”

I’m going to posit that Daario is not so much about escapism as he is about Dany’s coming to terms with her “monster.” If anything, I think that the floppy ears and her Meereen campaign are the escapes for her- it’s allowing her to procrastinate to finally accept her “dragon.”

She’s torn between love and duty, and also recognizes that Daario’s love for her has a causal relationship to her power:

When she appeals to the fact that she must marry Hiz for the sake of Meereen, he says “You are a queen. You can do what you like.” He’s telling her not to give into this shaky alliance, but to vanquish her foes and write her own rules as Queen, which would allow her to marry whomever she pleased.

I find this exchange quite interesting. Dany accuses Daario of chiding her, but he’s absolutely right here. Dany’s not willing to follow through with the responsibilities of ruling, happy to pawn that duty off to Hiz. Daario is telling her that if she no longer appears in a leadership capacity to the people, Hiz will siphon off all her power:

In much the same way that Daario loves Dany in part because of her power, I’d wager that it is precisely Daario’s uncouthness that appeals to Dany. Yet, the fact that he’s so far beneath her simultaneously angers her: “He’s going to make a sortie…Seven save me. Why couldn’t he be better born?”

This is a very good point here. I've always viewed Daario as precisely an escape mechanism, but I really think you're on to something here. He more properly represents Dany's id. And I agree, Daario is not really the escape- Hizdahr and the peace are the real escapes. That's brilliant. Never really thought about it that way but seems common sense now that I view it that way.

Governance I- Meereenese: “One foot jiggling with impatience.”

Dany has been avoiding her duties as a leader; I think that she has been spending a lot of time holed up in her chambers if this chapter is any indication: “It has been so long since she held court that the crush of cases was almost overwhelming.” She is clearly impatient and unhappy to be there, and her body language reveals this. When the Windblown show up close to sunset, “Dany found herself glancing at them as yet another petitioner droned on and on.” Meereen is no longer a “project” she feels any investment in.

This is something that's really been bothering me on reread, and it's my main complaint with Dany. It's not that she's stupid or gets outsmarted or drones on and on about Daario's golden tooth, it's that she does nothing. She has no plans, takes no proactive efforts, and is constantly reacting to events that are out of her control. For a "Queen", it really is startling to witness this. She supposedly has absolute power, yet does nothing with it.

Governance II- Westerosi: “These are my people. I am their rightful queen.”

Dany clears out her court to hold private council with the Dornishmen. When Quentyn shows her the letter suggesting an alliance with Dorne and 50,000 men through their marriage, Dany thinks, “Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he’s the prince and not the one with the wide shoulders and sandy hair.” This has been criticized in other threads as “shallowness” on Dany’s part, but I don’t believe that physical attraction to Quentyn would have changed her decision here. She does treat Quentyn with courtesy as befits his status, and tells him that it’s too late: “Would that you had come a year ago. I am pledged to wed the noble Hizdahr.”

Barristan wants Dany to reconsider the offer, but Dany refuses. My understanding is that she’s not ready to “take what’s hers.” I think that this chapter makes 2 issues clear regarding her tenure in Slaver’s Bay: 1. She genuinely wants peace, and for everything she started to work out, and 2. She has no personal interest in ruling this city any longer. I think she’s holding back because she’s not ready to embrace “fire and blood.” The next morning when Quentyn beseeches her one last time, I believe that her words reveal denial about following through with a Westerosi campaign:

I'm not sure Quentyn's unattractiveness would have changed anything (as you said), but it certainly plays into her eventual decision to stay. And by the way, I do think this is shallowness but I don't believe she deserves criticism for it. Which is to say- She doesn't know Quentyn, he's just showed up with some bullshit marriage pact that didn't even involve her specifically and would necessitate her abandoning everything she's worked for in Slaver's Bay just to execute it. And Quentyn is equally as shallow- He doesn't know Dany nor care about her. He cares about Dorne and doing his father proud and not being made fun of by the Sand Snakes.

Floppy Ears: Tokar, Sedan and Foot Washing

Dany’s advisors want her to take a palanquin across the city to the Temple. She asks for her horse instead, as she “would not go to my lord husband upon the backs of bearers.” I think that this is one of those cases where the proper trappings say the "appropriate thing", but taking her horse would send the right message; Dany has the right of it here. But as Dany is wrapped in a tokar, she cannot mount a horse; reluctantly, Dany asks for an open sedan chair: “If she must wear her floppy ears, let all the rabbits see her.” Interestingly, this marriage is supposed to bring together her people- the former slaves and the downtrodden- and Hizdahr’s people—the slave masters. So why are both clad in tokars and bourne on the backs of slaves in this display?

While I believe that Dany ought to have met Hiz’s family in the engagement party she refused, I don’t believe she should have adopted the tokar at any point during this charade, since the tokar is the attire of the slaving party. The whole point of marrying Hiz was to unite the factions; she should have ridden in on her silver in Dothraki garb (or whatever she felt most comfortable in) for a true symbolic unification.

In the traditional Ghiscari ceremony, the bride is supposed to wash the groom’s feet. They reverse this and he washes her in front of the temple. Though the gyno exam seemed invasive and tinged with female repression, something got me thinking. The symbol of Ghis is female, they hold women in high regard, and women are the foot washers; what if the foot washing is not a gesture of supplication, but one of authority or some other kind of non-repressive meaning? What if Hiz’s washing her feet actually sent the message that he is the one in control.

On reread, my view of this has completely changed (or maybe it should be obvious). I'm reminded a quote from Dany in AGOT. I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like Dothraki fighting with Mirri Maz (maybe) and Dany says "Horse nor sheep it doesn't matter. A Dragon eats both of them on battlefield" (again, total paraphrasing from poor memory lol). But I think it's perfectly relevant here. Why is Dany the Dragon putting on rabbit ears? How does that help her? The trappings of power that we talk about on here are exactly that: Trappings. They trap Dany into this inferior image of herself that her enemies exploit. Enemies aren't afraid of rabbits, they're afraid of Dragons. And by chaining up her actual children (dragons) and adopting new ones (weak slaves that needed her to free them), Dany is all but inviting betrayal and treachery.

A few points on Jon and the Boltons..

1. The North doesn't understand the entire threat of the Others. Having the LC come and personally plead for their help at a major event might give them a sense of the danger. Jon could also focus on the Wildling attack rather than the supernatural zombies.

2. There's nothing to suggest that Roose would say no to a request. He doesn't want to be seen as the Warden who let the North be overrun by Wildlings. It could also benefit him politically by occupying some families that aren't loyal to him. Manderlay?? The Mormonts??

3. Arya had personal benefit to Jon, but it has no benefit for the NW. The way that it happens ends up directly implicating the LC and by extension the NW instead. Jon and the NW received the full blowback. Even if it had succeeded, Jon would still have to face Stannis; I'm sure that Stan would have been pleased to know that Mance was still alive.

4. I think that Jon's dilemma is easier to empathize with than Dany's because it is all about family. It's hard not to root for Jon to save his sister and get the bad guys who killed his family. But those actions conflict with his duties as the LC. It's a fairly classic leadership dilemma/ trope. Do you save your loved ones or do you serve the greater good?

While I agree with all this, you said it earlier. The Wall was still in disarray and there was still the looming threat of another wildling attack. To leave and go attend a wedding would probably not go over too well with everyone else, and I can't imagine Jon would go for that. Additionally, it's the Bolton's. I'm convinced other Northern lords be damned, the Bolton's would see Eddard Stark's bastard who looks exactly like him as a threat and find some way to deal with him, either in plain view of everyone else or by some other means such as poison. I really doubt Jon goes to that wedding and survives.

[Tagganaro]

Stannis came and helped, but his continued presence prevents NW from getting help from the rest of the North. Helping him to ally with mountain clans also diverted resources that could have helped to defend the Wall. In fact, the whole in-fighting between Stannis and Boltons is a huge waste of resources and manpower in the light of the threat of the Others. If not for Ramsey, I'd have said that Jon's advice to Stannis was detrimental to the North and NW, because, once convincingly apprised of the danger, Bolton could have been much more effective than Stannis, being a northman and a capable one at that. Yes, terrible person, but then some Kings of Winter did terrible things too, as we know since AGOT.

How could Roose Bolton ever lead the North when at least 75% of the lords had kin at the RW and are just waiting for an opportunity to get revenge on him? I don't care how competent he is, but as long as the RW happened and he's married to and allied with Freys, there is no chance he can ever effectively lead and command the North in a battle against the Others.

And again, how can Stannis's presence "prevent" the Wall from getting something it never had- namely help from the rest of the North and the Iron Throne? Stannis's presence doesn't really mean anything to anyone in terms of how they view the NW- Cersei Lannister can pretend it bothers her all she wants, yet all the same if Yoren had shown up asking for troops pre-Stannis and pre-Jon Snow, what difference would it make? She'd still give them nothing except to maybe clear the dungeons of incredibly violent and useless prisoners. It speaks to how screwed up of a system the NW is.

[Winterfellian]

Stannis came and helped, but his continued presence prevents NW from getting help from the rest of the North. Helping him to ally with mountain clans also diverted resources that could have helped to defend the Wall. In fact, the whole in-fighting between Stannis and Boltons is a huge waste of resources and manpower in the light of the threat of the Others. If not for Ramsey, I'd have said that Jon's advice to Stannis was detrimental to the North and NW, because, once convincingly apprised of the danger, Bolton could have been much more effective than Stannis, being a northman and a capable one at that. Yes, terrible person, but then some Kings of Winter did terrible things too, as we know since AGOT.

Jon does recognize that Stannis continued presence is a problem, but what exactly did you wanted him to do? Send him off with his entire army? Do you realize we are talking about Stannis here. Also, he has the manpower to take everything he wanted by force and Jon knows this not to mention a mysterious sorceress. The best way was to thread carefully with him in order to continue getting his aid and at the same time mantain an appereance of neutrality.

Agree with everyone who tried to explain the Stannis situation. Anyway, didn't we covered all this in the first thread? We are going in circles.

[kg1982]

Playing devil's advocate... The Wall being in disarray was a good reason not to go to the wedding. The reason why Jon didn't go is because his personal disgust over the whole situation. He didn't think well.. Hey this is a good opportunity to get the support I need and then decide against it. As readers, we're as disgusted with the Boltons as he is, so it is something that makes him sympathetic, but it is a good example of a time that he is putting his family above the greater good. It escalates throughout the book.

[Winterfellian]

I wonder if you assume that Jon was invited to this wedding because to me the letter read more as a taunt than an invitation. Is not like he could have invited himself. Following your assumption I think that best he could have done is send an envoy. The problem with this is the lack of proper envoys given that the wall already lost some of his best. But going himself is out of the question.

For me the real blunder he commits is sending Mance to fetch Arya, but deciding to show uninvited to this event is not something I consider a mistake. But to each his own I suppose :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Playing devil's advocate... The Wall being in disarray was a good reason not to go to the wedding. The reason why Jon didn't go is because his personal disgust over the whole situation. He didn't think well.. Hey this is a good opportunity to get the support I need and then decide against it. As readers, we're as disgusted with the Boltons as he is, so it is something that makes him sympathetic, but it is a good example of a time that he is putting his family above the greater good. It escalates throughout the book.

I don't think the letter he received was an actual invitation. It was goading. I don't believe Ramsay was sending Jon the note hoping that he'd pick up the flatware on the Crate & Barrel registry. :P

[kg1982]

I think it was a form letter that was sent to all important points in the North. I don't think they did personal notes with gold italics on their invitations. And yes it was taunting.. but Ramsay was probably taunting the Stark supporters (as in the rest of the North) as much as Jon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it was a form letter that was sent to all important points in the North. I don't think they did personal notes with gold italics on their invitations. And yes it was taunting.. but Ramsay was probably taunting the Stark supporters (as in the rest of the North) as much as Jon.

And that taunting is no doubt going to come back to bite him in the ass sooner rather than later. But I'm not sure I get your point about Jon going or not going to the Wedding.