Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nice catch. I had considered the Septon hating Jon because of the Southron recruits he swayed to take an oath before the Old Gods but missed Satin as a Marsh replacement completely.

Not sure this is the right thread for this, but I think Jon's ability to get the new recruits to take weirwood oaths is significant. I hew to the idea that it's the Watch men themselves who are the "weapon" and that the obsidian is just a medium. Only an old-gods-sworn brother (like Sam) will do, so Jon leading the new brothers to take weirwood oaths could have pretty big implications where the effectiveness of the Watch is concerned.

Also I think this chapter has some strong "Corn King" allusions as Lummel mentioned is his summary. My intuitive feel for that theory is just off so I skipped it, but the references are definitely there.

This I think is extremely significant and a clever mythological allusion. The Corn King was sacrificed and then was resurrected at spring time.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

The Yunkish lord killed is mentioned in a Tyrion chapter, i believe he is described as fat, but don't quote me on that

[Ser Pollo Loco]

This I think is extremely significant and a clue mythological allusion. The Corn King was sacrificed and then was resurrected at spring time.

I m very curious what's about to happen weather or Other wise is the corn king stuff actually comes into play

[Ragnorak]

@Apple Martini

Love your NW=Lightbringer Theory and I think you're on to something with the Old God oath mattering.

There's definitely something to the Corn King reference, far too many not very subtle hints. I just can't find an interpretation that seems to fit with everything else.

I also skipped Val because I love this Val/Dalla priestess idea and don't want to derail things if I can't trim down my analysis first.

[Uncat]

About one an a half weeks behind. But, as prophecies and the likes play such a huge part all along gthe books, I'll just throw this in and the shut up again:

Basicaly there are two kinds of predictions on the future:

For once, there are visions and fortellings. Those would be glimpses into the future. This future then would be a probable or even a sure future, if the character chooses a certain way to act (or avoids it).

Prophesies (i.e. real prophesies happening in a world, where such a thing is possible) are different thing. They will come to happen, no matter, what people do about it.

The AA prophesie is a real prophesie, while anything that Danny (or Cersei or Melisandre for that matter) gets, is visions and foretellings. Only the last bit about the three treasons, three loves, three fires might be one. But even that seems to be rather a fortelling deguised in a riddle.

[Dacie]

Welcome back Lummel! :cheers:

Great posts everyone, and I really don't have much to add. This chapter really highlights a lot of the changes Jon is trying to make, and the opposition's feelings are stated.

I like that Jon is trying to learn as much as possible about Wun Wun and the other giants. He's non-judgmental, as he recalls Old Nan's story about giants being monsters and eating human flesh. But once he gets to know Wun Wun he realizes that's not true (could be for other giants, but I doubt it). The opposition shows their prejudice against Wun Wun, Satin, and Leathers. I love that Jon points out some of the sins of their fellow NW brothers, and how they're really be hypocritical.

[Ragnorak]

Did Jon steal Val?

“I feared you’d do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t’ do after you stole me.”

Jon sat up. “Ygritte, I never stole you.”

“Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat.

From the previous Jon chapter

Jon glimpsed the red wanderer above, watching them through the leafless branches of great trees as they made their way beneath. The Thief, the free folk called it. The best time to steal a woman was when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, Ygritte had always claimed.

In this chapter:

“Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?”

“Thief,” Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

“Thief,” the raven agreed.

Jon killing Jarl and guarding Val at swordpoint could be interpreted to be the same as Jon killing Orell and holding Ygritte at knifepoint. Also Val seems to be flirting with Jon:

Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. “You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope.”

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, “The only thanks I want is—”

“This is farewell, then,” she said, almost playfully.

The flirting stands out because Val is basically threatening to slit the throat of every other man eyeing her. The woman who coined the term "Ser Kneeler" has also taken to calling Jon, Lord Snow.

is mine, Lord Snow

“You have my word, Lord Snow. I will return, with Tormund or without him.” Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. “Look for me on the first day of the full moon.”

“You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope.”

“Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?”

This line seems noteworthy though I'm not sure exactly what to make of it

The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She

took a deep breath. “The air tastes sweet.”

There's also a bit of a dragon theme in Val's send off complete with fire and ice juxtaposition.

as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

dire need of some scales from the dragon that had flamed him

Jon is still very much a Stark.

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so.

Winter is coming, Jon reflected. And soon, too soon. He wondered if they would ever see a spring.

Winter is coming, my lords, and when it does, we living men will need to stand together against the dead.

It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.

Here are all the raven's lines throughout the chapter. After "thief" he speaks in threes. The "Corn King" reference is obvious. Omitting the *corn* we get: Free King. Kill, Snow, Dead. Othell stabbing the sausage with a dagger is a bit of foreshadowing. It is probably worth mentioning that the line before "kill" associates each of the three men with their corresponding vices: wine, food, red faced.

“Thief,” Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

“Thief,” the raven agreed.

“Perhaps some wine?” said Septon Cellador. “Corn,” screamed the raven from the lintel. “Corn, corn.”

It would not hurt them to learn a few words of the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk.”

“Free,” the raven muttered. “Corn. King.”

Septon Cellador drank some wine. Othell Yarwyck stabbed a sausage with his dagger. Bower Marsh sat red-faced. The raven flapped its wings and said, “Corn, corn, kill.”

Winter is coming, my lords, and when it does, we living men will need to stand together against the dead.”

“Snow,” screamed Lord Mormont’s raven. “Snow, Snow.”

What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?”

Above the door the raven muttered, “Dead, dead, dead.”

[Winterfellian]

Jon and his Officers

For me the conflict between Jon and his officers is reminiscent of the moral conflicts depicted in the play Antigone by Sophocles with Jon representing Antigone and Marsh Creon.

For those who are not familiar with the play, Antigone explores contrasting ideals in Greek society represented by Antigone and Creon. Antigone had 2 brothers who died at each other’s hand; one fighting for Thebes and one agains it. After their death the King, Creon, decreted that Polynices’s body as an enemy of Thebes, should be left in the open for scavengers and the like. Antigone believing that this edict disregarded the laws of heavens proceeded to properly bury her brother. In the end, Creon judged and executed Antigone because she violated the state’s law against burying her brother. I simplified it but I hope you get the idea.

As in the play, both Jon and Marsh’s actions are based on their own individual beliefs as to what constitutes right or wrong. Like Antigone, Jon is clearly favoring a position that stems from a more religiously inspired idea: that all men deserved salvation. Marsh is directing his actions based on a more mundane approach that separates men into classes according to what he considers their merits. Their differences are not just a clash of opinions but a clash of morals where is hard to convince the other to change their minds. And as we know from future chapters Marsh is clearly passing judgement of Jon for violating laws he, Marsh, derives from the Night’s Watch oath but that might not be compatible with more “heavenly” laws such as the equality of men and the right to live.

Prejudice and Hate

Ragnorak made a great decomposition of Jon’s conversation with Marsh and the other officers. However I will like to explore on a mistake I feel Jon might be making here. I have a feeling Jon knows the deep prejudice it exists towards the wildings but does not analyze how much of this prejudice is backed by simple ignorance, how much by hatred and how much by both. Jon seems to think that appealing to their survival instincts: “The dead will rise again, in their hundreds, in their thousands. They will rise as wights with black hands and pale blue eyes and they will come for us” might be enough to conquer these prejudices (and it should) but for some men, like Marsh this might not be enough.

Marsh’s views of the wildings, for example, are more not merely fueled by ignorance. There is deep hatred behind some of his more obtuse opinions (whore’s hole, these are more beast than men, these are enemies we speak of, etc.) This is more than just pig’s ignorance and I feel Jon is not noticing as he should

Yes, Jon is exasperated by these views (rightly so) but he does not analyze them better and this leaves him unprepared to deal with future reactions once the wildings cross. This is an example where his decision to send his friends away is coming back to bite him because he can’t ask Marsh who were the men the officers were speaking off but a trusted friend might have been able to find out some names in a more covert way. While I understand and support Jon’s reasons for sending his friends away I have always been of the opinion he ought to have keep at least one near.

Double Standards:

Some of the things that appalled me the most in this chapter is Marsh and company’s double standards for judging Jon and his decisions. Ragnorak already analyzed the way they pass judgement on Jon for the wildings taking the black and Satin becoming his steward but I will also add the case of Val.

How many times Marsh and others complained about Jon getting too friendly with Stannis and serving his interests and in this chapter they were actually angry that Jon release her and said: “The King’s prize. His grace will be wroth to find her gone” and express concern about Val not returning. She’s a wilding. Shouldn’t they be glad that she’s on “her side of the wall” and that one link to Stannis and his campaign is gone? But no, they still find fault with this. It is very frustrating.

[Budj]

Ragnorak,

I like your assessment up there, but I remember reading that Val pretty much "stole" Jarl - I think she was asking because she would have held a grudge against Jon if he did kill him. The wall killed, Jarl. When she heard the answer she felt better about their subtle flirting, I think.

[Punchslap]

Double Standards: Some of the things that appalled me the most in this chapter is Marsh and company’s double standards for judging Jon and his decisions. Ragnorak already analyzed the way they pass judgement on Jon for the wildings taking the black and Satin becoming his steward but I will also add the case of Val. How many times Marsh and others complained about Jon getting too friendly with Stannis and serving his interests and in this chapter they were actually angry that Jon release her and said: “The King’s prize. His grace will be wroth to find her gone” and express concern about Val not returning. She’s a wilding. Shouldn’t they be glad that she’s on “her side of the wall” and that one link to Stannis and his campaign is gone? But no, they still find fault with this. It is very frustrating.

Great point and yet another illustration that there was no way for Jon to win over Marsh's faction.

[Ragnorak]

@Winterfellian

Like your prejudice and hate observations. On the survival instinct front, wasn't Marsh injured fighting Wildlings at the bridge? Is that the only time he has ever been in combat his entire life?

Ragnorak,

I like your assessment up there, but I remember reading that Val pretty much "stole" Jarl - I think she was asking because she would have held a grudge against Jon if he did kill him. The wall killed, Jarl. When she heard the answer she felt better about their subtle flirting, I think.

I read that as a grudge line too. But the Ygritte stealing parallel, the flirting, and the "Thief" reference made it worth mentioning. There is definitely something more to Val. Just the idea that Val would steal a man sets her apart. Jon is now doing the same thing Mance was doing when he was with Dalla-- getting the Wildlings safely behind the Wall. Does that play into the "stealing" possibility?

Also Val has been watching Jon. She watched Jon choose not to hang Slynt and behead him in the traditions of the First Men.

By then all of Castle Black had come outside to watch. Even Val was at her window, her long golden braid across one shoulder.

She was also watching when they burned "Mance" and Jon risked the wrath of Stannis and chose to have him mercifully shot with arrows instead of burning to death.

Val was definitely not the one stolen.

“This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.”

Even Mance makes no claim to stealing her sister Dalla.

My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle.

And when Mance asks everyone to leave so he can talk to Jon alone that doesn't include Dalla.

“Leave us, all of you.”

The others followed him out, all but the woman Dalla.

It is a bit reminiscent of Stannis and Melisandre-- though Dalla's sorcery advice makes it clear she's no Mel.

When she's talking to Jon before setting out she knows things. (bemused deserves the credit for these observations, not me)

“The horse may be half-blind, but I am not,” said Val. “I know where I must go.”

How? I think the half blind horse is there to emphasize Val's sight.

Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. “Look for me on the first day of the full moon.”

That's pretty darn specific, especially since eventually she shows up exactly when she says. The best rangers in the Watch can't guarantee that kind of a return date without a specific mission to locate someone like Tormund who could be anywhere.

Jarl and everyone in that party that went over the Wall died except Jon.

"The Wall killed Jarl.”

“So I’d heard. But I had to be sure.”

Who did she hear it from? Jon is the only survivor.

Val also seems to know a good deal regarding Mel.

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

“Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Again, how does she know this? "Sees things in her fires" could be written off but not knowing Mel knows about the baby swap.

“Why let it happen if she knew?”

“Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go.”

If Val knows things, this is a very interesting line. Val seems to know where Tormund is and know that she can reach him and return by the full moon. Val's knowledge is not fickle at all. Tormund's location and return date are exactly the kind of useful actionable intel Mel has been criticized for not providing.

As to explanations:

“I have heard you singing to him.”

I was singing to myself.

Singing is often associated with magic. MMD and Mel making Ghost's name a song for example. Combine it with this and you get a Moonsinger image.

The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

Maybe she's a Woods Witch or a Greenseer or something we just haven't seen yet. Whatever it is, there's definitely something more to Val.

There's a bit of a parallel between Jon/Val and Rhaegar/Lyanna especially in light of the "stealing" notion. I know Lyanna is refered to as "wild" but I can't remember if she's ever called a "wildling princess" or something very close. I think so but can't recall. Kevan called her a wild beauty IIRC.

As a final thought Jon knows from Mance and experience that the Wildlings hold guest right sacred.

“Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.” He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. “Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands… this night, at least.

So by feeding the Wildlings at the Wall he's actually invoking guest right to keep the peace. That's something he can't rely on with the Wildlings at Mole's Town. So it is actually smarter in terms of peace to feed and house the Wildlings. I wonder if this will be a factor with his stabbing. Is Ser Petrek's attack on Wun Wun a guest right violation? I think so. Since Jon is LC is his stabbing a guest right violation-- this is less clear to me but the Wildlings might well view it that way.

[nothatso]

I've wondered for some time if maybe Daario and Val are meant to serve similar roles in their relationships to Dany and Jon. Perhaps both represent a desire that will ultimately have to be set aside for the pursuit of duty or future goals? They also both seem to hold a purpose of fleshing out a core trait of their paired PoV's inner character. Daario pushes Dany to embrace her inner conqueror, Val somewhat more indirectly seems to remind Jon that he is a creature of the North. Daario councils Dany to take rather harsh methods in securing her position of power, while Val (later) recommends Jon take what could be perceived as rather drastic measures in dealing with Shireen's greyscale. I'm unsure if the similarities are significant or go any deeper, just something to think about going forward.

Ragnorak,

I like your assessment up there, but I remember reading that Val pretty much "stole" Jarl - I think she was asking because she would have held a grudge against Jon if he did kill him. The wall killed, Jarl. When she heard the answer she felt better about their subtle flirting, I think.

I actually don't think Val was particularly attached to Jarl. If you read the exchange, Val asks Jon about Jarl immediately after thanking him and giving him a kiss. When he confirms her suspicions she's described as responding "playfully". It seemed a bit odd to me. Then again, so did her knowing how Jarl died in the first place, since Jon was seemingly the only survivor from that raiding party, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

They serve similar roles in the present, desire in the face of duty. Jon wants Val, but he separates that desire (and gave her up in SOS) when she gets a little too close, Dany gives in to Darrio and starts to neglect her duty. While they may have different/similar roles in the future its hard to see. Darrio seems to be regarded as a joke whereas Val as presented as competent and a worthy advisor.

I also disagree a little with Darrio gives good advice/embrace being a conqueror......Aegon the conqueror didn't conquer Westerous and kill all the nobles, i think theres a difference between fire and blood and being a monster, Darrios downfall whether it eventually be Jon/Tyrion or whom ever should be simple just ask Dany how she imagines a sell sword beds a "thousand" women

[Dacie]

I think at this point maybe Ygritte serves as a better comparison to Daario. Jon looks at his time with her as an escape, wishing he could've stayed in the cave with her forever. This is similar to Dany wishing she could run off with Daario to the house with the red door. Ygritte's words still serve as a constant reminder of the worry Jon faces, that he really does know nothing. Daario makes Dany question herself on whether her course is the correct one or if she should fully embrace the fire and blood.

That's not to say that eventually their relationship won't evolve into a different, more serious state (I believe it will), I just think it's not at that level yet.

[PatrickStormborn]

They serve similar roles in the present, desire in the face of duty. Jon wants Val, but he separates that desire (and gave her up in SOS) when she gets a little too close, Dany gives in to Darrio and starts to neglect her duty. While they may have different/similar roles in the future its hard to see. Darrio seems to be regarded as a joke whereas Val as presented as competent and a worthy advisor.

I also disagree a little with Darrio gives good advice/embrace being a conqueror......Aegon the conqueror didn't conquer Westerous and kill all the nobles, i think theres a difference between fire and blood and being a monster, Darrios downfall whether it eventually be Jon/Tyrion or whom ever should be simple just ask Dany how she imagines a sell sword beds a "thousand" women

Aegon I only managed to spare a large number of nobles because they knew he would kill them if they didn't swear fealty. The Lannisters swore fealty because they saw what happened to the Gardener King, for example. Daario isn't really attempting to encourage Dany to kill every noble in Meereen -- he's trying to encourage her to show them that she will kill them if they don't obey her. Dany had her field of fire moment with the 163 crucifixions, but she needs to reinforce this like Aegon and his sisters did.

[The Sleeper]

Dany has a large and almost fanatical following. This is demostrated by the fact that the factions loyal to her still rule her city in her absence. She could have pacified Meereen violently any moment she chose. I consider it a point in her favor that she didn't.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany has a large and almost fanatical following. This is demostrated by the fact that the factions loyal to her still rule her city in her absence. She could have pacified Meereen violently any moment she chose. I consider it a point in her favor that she didn't.

I kind of agree with you... I certainly have more respect for Dany the person for not reacting violently after the deaths of her Unsullied. But Dany is not just a "person" anymore, she is a queen, a mother, a dragon. She is a symbol, a movement (I can't remember who said that earlier, but I thought it was a brilliant description of Dany). The freed slaves -- her children -- rely on her to protect them, and she can't do that by being a good person. She can only do that by being the mother of dragons. Only when Dany embraces her role as the mother of dragons (not simply "mother" or "dragon" -- but rather both) can she truly be a force for good.

[Tagganaro]

Aegon I only managed to spare a large number of nobles because they knew he would kill them if they didn't swear fealty. The Lannisters swore fealty because they saw what happened to the Gardener King, for example. Daario isn't really attempting to encourage Dany to kill every noble in Meereen -- he's trying to encourage her to show them that she will kill them if they don't obey her. Dany had her field of fire moment with the 163 crucifixions, but she needs to reinforce this like Aegon and his sisters did.

No, Daario definitely seems to be advising her to kill all the nobles in Mereen.

Here's the passage:

"You are fighting shadows when you should be fighting the men who cast them," Daario went on. Kill them all and take their treasures, I say. Whisper the command, and your Daario will make you a pile of their heads taller than this pyramid."

"If I knew who they were-"

"Zhak and Pahl and Merreq. Them, and all the rest. The Great Masters. Who else would it be?"

......

"Then winkle them out of the pyramids on some pretext. A wedding might serve. Why not? Promise your hand to Hizdahr and all the Great Masters will come to see you married. When they gather in the Temple of the Graces, turn us loose upon them."

[Tagganaro]

Did Jon steal Val?

Jon killing Jarl and guarding Val at swordpoint could be interpreted to be the same as Jon killing Orell and holding Ygritte at knifepoint. Also Val seems to be flirting with Jon:

The flirting stands out because Val is basically threatening to slit the throat of every other man eyeing her. The woman who coined the term "Ser Kneeler" has also taken to calling Jon, Lord Snow.

Now this is very interesting. I'm not sure I've ever considered that Jon has in fact "stolen" Val, and like Ygritte she is just waiting for him to act on it.

I have to say, I was very surprised on reread of the physicality of that scene, which I did not quite remember. It seemed like harmless flirting for fun at the time, but what really stands out is her kissing him on the cheek, then seemingly standing very close to the point where their breath "mingled", and offering Jon her thanks for everything, to the point where Jon has to actually pull back from her to stop something from happening. Very interesting.

I think you're on to something with Jon "stealing" her, because clearly this has gone past the point of flirting. And to be fair, Jon seems pretty obsessed with her as well at certain points, where he continues to think about how pretty she is and how good of a wife she would make. I think this might all be Jon's way of continuing to kick himself for not accepting Stannis's offer as he just seems to be beyond miserable in his current position.

And the rest of this chapter really indicates that...

Here are all the raven's lines throughout the chapter. After "thief" he speaks in threes. The "Corn King" reference is obvious. Omitting the *corn* we get: Free King. Kill, Snow, Dead. Othell stabbing the sausage with a dagger is a bit of foreshadowing. It is probably worth mentioning that the line before "kill" associates each of the three men with their corresponding vices: wine, food, red faced.

I love this analysis. This is really great, because it does seem like the Raven is there to emphasize certain of Jon's points. But the pattern you pick out is perfect. I really like the Snow, Snow, Snow reaction of the raven that seemingly comes out of nowhere after Jon emphatically states that the living must band together to fight the dead. Is this why the raven called out Snow randomly when choosing the next LC? Is this the raven/Bloodraven's plan?

Prejudice and Hate

Ragnorak made a great decomposition of Jon’s conversation with Marsh and the other officers. However I will like to explore on a mistake I feel Jon might be making here. I have a feeling Jon knows the deep prejudice it exists towards the wildings but does not analyze how much of this prejudice is backed by simple ignorance, how much by hatred and how much by both. Jon seems to think that appealing to their survival instincts: “The dead will rise again, in their hundreds, in their thousands. They will rise as wights with black hands and pale blue eyes and they will come for us” might be enough to conquer these prejudices (and it should) but for some men, like Marsh this might not be enough.

Marsh’s views of the wildings, for example, are more not merely fueled by ignorance. There is deep hatred behind some of his more obtuse opinions (whore’s hole, these are more beast than men, these are enemies we speak of, etc.) This is more than just pig’s ignorance and I feel Jon is not noticing as he should

Yes, Jon is exasperated by these views (rightly so) but he does not analyze them better and this leaves him unprepared to deal with future reactions once the wildings cross. This is an example where his decision to send his friends away is coming back to bite him because he can’t ask Marsh who were the men the officers were speaking off but a trusted friend might have been able to find out some names in a more covert way. While I understand and support Jon’s reasons for sending his friends away I have always been of the opinion he ought to have keep at least one near.

This is a good point, but I'm not sure I can say I agree with it. I just don't think there's anything Jon can do or any argument Jon can make to change these peoples mind's. Ill go more into this now with my own analysis.

[Tagganaro]

Anyway, this is probably gonna be somewhat short since it was a short chapter.

Needless to say, it contains one of my favorite quotes in the book that Jon says to Bowen Marsh. That quote is

"Are you so blind or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?"

I think this quote sums up the main issue of the meeting- Communication

Here's the conversation between Jon and Yarwyck:

"...Sooner If I had more builders."

"I could offer you a giant."

That gave Othell a start. "The monster in the yard?"

"His name is Wun Weg Wund Dar Wun, Leathers tells me. A lot to wrap a tongue around I know. Leathers calls him Wun Wun, and that seems to serve.....He's a willing worker, though getting him to understand what you want is not always easy. He speaks the Old Tongue after a fashion, but nothing of the Common. Tireless, though, and his strength is prodigious. He could do the work of a dozen men."

"I...my lord, the men would never...giants eat human flesh, I think...no, my lord, I thank you, but I don't haves the men to watch over such a creature, he..."

Jon might as well be Wun Wun in this scenario speaking the old tongue to men who only understand the common. Or is it the other way around? Othell needs more workers, Jon essentially offers him 12 workers because that's all he has. Othell's response is...I think that Giants eat human flesh so no? Two people speaking completely different languages. Meanwhile, we find from Jon's thoughts that he has been finding out everything he can about Wun Wun, asking him about the history of his people and talking with him whenever he can. Jon even thinks "Wun Wun was very little like the giants in Old Nan's tales...This giant at no meat at all" Yeah, these are just two guys who are incapable of understanding each other.

Communication Part II

Now it's Bowen Marsh's turn to speak a different language. Granted, what Marsh is doing here is somewhat unique, and it's not the first time he's argued in this manner. On the one hand, he is pointing out how things are traditionally done, but then on the other he is very much ignoring some of the most crucial traditions of the NW (namely, that once someone says the words all their past crimes are forgiven." So again, it comes down to Marsh and Jon speaking in different tongues.

Jon points out how good of a fighter Leathers is and how it is good that the younger trainees are scared of him as it will help them in the future. I love this exchange

"Is it true that you mean to replace Emmet with this savage Leathers as our master-at-arms? That is an office most oft reserved for Knights, or rangers at the least."

"Leathers is savage," Jon agreed mildly. "I can attest to that."

..."He's a wildling"

"He was, until he said the words. Now he is our brother. One who can teach the boys more than swordcraft. It would not hurt them to learn a few words to the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk."

I love how savage has such two different meanings to this two diametrically different and opposed human beings. Marsh calls him a savage, using it as a bad thing. Jon on the other hand is impressed by it. Continuing on the brilliant practice yard fight with Mance, does Jon just enjoy getting his ass kicked?

Also, again, the languages are brought up with Jon pointing out that he wants recruits to learn the Old Tongue. It's not really about learning the Old Tongue, though, is it? It's about speaking a language that could allow different people to unite. As Jon says, he wants to use Wun Wun to potentially treat with other giants if Tormund has some with him. He wants his new recruits to be accepting of other cultures and people- namely the wildlings. But here, with Bowen Marsh and these others, it is simply impossible. Either they are blind, or they just refuse to see. Either way, it's just not happening.

One other thing- Interesting to note that in the last chapter before this, when they are headed to say their vows, Jon notes that Leathers has been assigned to be a ranger. Yet, Bowen Marsh must just refuse to acknowledge this, as he says that only knights and rangers can become masters-at-arms. Well, what is Leathers then? Just a wildling savage to Marsh. Different languages indeed.

Communication Part III

I love how this is included to drive home the point. The confinement of the corpses that Jon hopes will arise as wights so he can try and communicate with them. Again, Jon might as well be a wight trying to communicate with Bowen marsh and co. They just refuse to see what he wants them to. Whether they are right or not is a different matter. They refuse to even take these things that Jon says to them under consideration.

Finally, just wanted to point out Jon's hilarious takedowns of Septon Cellador. Dude needs to stop talking immediately lol.

Septon Cellador on Satin

"My lord, the boy's a whore....a...dare I say a painted catamite from the brothels of Oldtown."

And you are a drunk.

Septon Cellador again

"I think this most unwise, Lord Snow. I shall pray to the Crone to lift her shining lamp and lead you down the path of wisdom."

"We could all do with a bit more wisdom, I am sure."

Oh snap, Cellador needs to learn to shut his mouth lol.

And as usual, let's end on Dolorous Edd and his greatness. My one-liner of the week:

"The air is so cold it hurts to breathe. I would stop, but that would hurt worse."

Please never stop breathing Dolorous Edd.