Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[mythsandstuff]

I think one of the major issues Dany's encountered during her arc has been her inabiity to recognize that she doesn't have any real friends---she has servants/slaves, she has employees, she has guards, but she has nobody like, for example, Sam was to Jon or Ned was to Robert Baratheon. She thought Brown Ben was her friend because, having never had an actual friend, she has no idea that there's a separation between "person with a true emotional bond with me" versus "person using me" and "person financially dependent on me". I think this is the heart of why she's so terrible at navigating a social arena other than Queen/Servant, and why she could genuinely believe that Brown Ben was her friend. She doesn't actually make friends, but she doesn't recognize this because she thinks her employees are her friends and thus, that she has a bunch of friends. So when people dislike her, then clearly the fault is on them, because Dany's great at making friends . . . right? And since she's never interacted with a social stratum other than Queen/Servant, she doesn't know how to interact with the Meereenese nobility in any other way, so if people aren't serving her, it's like they don't really exist to her.

[/lurking]

This is such a good point, and may be one of the reasons she's so keen to trust the Green Grace, who she might see as her first "real" friend.

[lurking]

[Blisscraft]

I got you point already, so could you just drop it and focus on the main topic please?

Meow! No need to get testy. Simply stuck by the ambiguity of "OK." BTW What was the main topic? I'm sure you'll be happy to remind me. :rolleyes:

[Maia]

It's an interesting perspective that Dany never seems to take to heart. Barristan basically points out that the bloody flux is not a condemnation sent from the gods, it's a fact of life during wartime.

Yea, but maybe he should have stressed it a bit more? Also, I don't remember any of the armies we saw in Westeros suffering from it. Maybe Barristan should have mentioned what is normally done to counter-act it?

Reznak and the Green Grace give Dany a list of Meereenese wedding customs, but Dany never runs this information by anyone like Missandei or the Shavepate.

Good observation. Normally, I'd say that it would have been an insane risk for GG to lie to Dany. About something that could be checked so easily, but maybe she is a local version of Littlefinger? And of course Dany not meeting Hizdahr's female relatives at all was a huge faux pas. And yes, Green Grace seems subtle enough for it to be her intent. After all, Loraqs may have been tempted to ally with Dany otherwise.

I think this right here epitomizes one of the major differences between Jon's and Dany's leadership struggles. Jon has shown himself to be very good at making friends, and especially at making friends out of enemies

Well... Jon was in a very different situation, really. He was one of them. Dany never had such an opportunity. "Friends" Jon makes after he is LC are more in the nature of allies, whose interests align with his, or loyal subordinates, which Dany also has. He has sent away all his real friends and seemed in the process of losing friendship of some of them (Pyp, Grenn). There was also Ned's advice how a lord can't have friends, which I disagree with.

It's been pointed out that a major reason Robert Baratheon was such a success was not just because he was very good at making friends in the first place (although he clearly was, and that was a pretty huge help to the rebellion)---it was also because he specifically had a talent for making enemies into friends.

And yet, when we saw Robert, we learned that his only true friends, the only people whom he could trust were his foster-father and foster-bother. Where were all those "friends" he supposedly made during the Rebellion? Why didn't his former squires become his friends, like Rhaegar's did? Etc. No, IMHO Robert had an ability to dazzle people with his charisma and make them follow him, but not to make real friends or to inspire long-lasting loyalty.

I agree with what you said re: Dany's lack of experience with friendship due to her circumstances. It is a bit strange that Dany didn't interact with other high-ranking Dothraki women at all. But then, power imbalance would have been there even then and many cultures iRL didn't think highly of female friendship, IIRC.

And, for that matter, it didn't look to me like Drogo had any friends either. Theirs was a very hierarchical society, maybe?

[Dr. Pepper]

Jon VII

Overview

Jon and Edd are atop the Wall, looking out upon the haunted forest. Jon commands Edd to gather the recruits and escorts so that the new recruits can take their vows at weirwood grove. As they descend, Jon thinks of needing glass for vegetable gardens. Bowen Marsh begs Jon to reconsider his plan to lead recruits north of the Wall, reminding him what happened to three rangers who were sent out. Jon tells him he has Ghost.

Jon's escort and the six new recruits - Horse, Satin, Arron, Emrick, Leathers and Jax - head out into the haunted forest. Jon and Iron Emmet discuss the problems with the spearwives who came to serve the watch. Jon reveals his plan to open new castles and man them with wildlings with Iron Emmet serving as commander and Edd as his second.

They come upon nine wildlings around the weirwoods, two already dead. Leathers calms the giant by telling him their purpose. Jon convinces the wildlings to return with him to Castle Black. Back at the Wall, Jon consigns two corpses to the ice cells. Jon returns to his rooms to read a letter from Stannis revealing all of the men who have come to his cause. The chapter ends with Jon thinking of Arya and his doubts.

Observations

• 
  Some were smiling, some were screaming, some were shouting at him. In the deepening glow their eyes looked black, but in daylight they would be blood-red, Jon knew. Eyes like Ghost’s.
  

• 
  Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake.
  
• 
  Jon consigns two corpses to the ice cells.
  

Analysis

This chapter serves as a staging of sorts. It neatly summarizes all of the challenges, external and internal, that Jon now faces. These are the things that lead him to doubt his decisions and these challenges are what will eventually lead to his stabbing.

Challenge One: The Wall

Jon is standing atop the wall, seeing all of the imperfections in the ice of the wall. It’s an interesting bit of imagery that captures the challenges Jon faces with the Night Watch. In this moment, Jon isn’t the wide-eyed boy who first came to the wall thinking to serve a most honorable order. He sees the imperfections in the watch – from the broken men serving as his brothers, to the abandoned castles in disrepair, to the problems of food shortages, to the resistance he faces when it comes to change.

He worries about how to feed and shelter all of the inhabitants at the wall. The thought of glass gardens comes to mind, though he lacks the gold (which will come to him in a later chapter). He makes a decision to use the wildlings to man the re-garrisoned castles and appoints two of his closest allies- Iron Emmet and Dolorous Edd - to command at the one which will house the spearwives.

Bowen Marsh pleads with him to have the recruits swear their vows in the sept or to the Lord of Light. Jon denies this by pointing out that the vows are a binding tradition that ties all of the black brothers together. He says, “I do not tell men which god to worship. They were free to choose the Seven or the red woman’s Lord of Light. They chose the trees instead, with all the peril that entails.” Going with the recruits was not something Jon needed to do (Jeor didn’t go when Jon spoke his vows at the hearttree), but Jon decides he’s the best person since he has Ghost, who can help sense any foes to prevent the deaths of more black brothers.

As they rode away from the wall, Jon notes, “Their hoods were raised against the biting wind, and some had scarves wrapped about their faces, hiding their features. Jon knew them, though. Every name was graven on his heart. They were his men, his brothers.” I think there is an interesting comparison to be made with Dany’s Brazen Beasts who also mask their features. Has Dany learned the names of at least those masked men guarding her pyramid?

Challenge Two: North of the Wall

Before Jon rides North, when he’s still atop the wall, he looks out over the haunted forest. It’s another good bit of imagery. Seeing the forest for the trees, something he realizes when he’s merged with Ghost at the heart tree and looking among the new black brothers and wildling group.

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse’s unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant’s overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men.

The men may come from opposite ends of Westeros, from various backgrounds, different sides of the wall, but Jon understands that the vow does not discern these differences. They are all men.

Jon suggests to the wildlings that they come back to the wall with him. The wildlings are reluctant, they’ve heard stories of a red witch burning everyone who yielded. Melisandre, Jon thought, you and your red god have much and more to answer for. If we recall Mel’s chapter, she thinks that Jon needs and respects her. This clearly indicates that though she has offered assistance, he believes she is doing more harm than good. Jon convinces them to trust him by identifying himself as Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and a son of Eddard Stark.

Challenge Three: South of the Wall

The challenges Jon faces south of the wall are of a personal sort. He receives a letter from Stannis, detailing his movements and successes in gaining Northern support. Jon is pleased though he realizes he ought not to be. He thinks of his sister and of Mance whom he unleashed in the North to save her (even admitting to having a certain grudging admiration of), though he acknowledges that he swore a vow that does not include sisters and getting involved in quarrels of the realm. Both Arya and Jon try to leave their old lives behind but find themselves unable to completely sever the ties.

From a moral perspective and from our birds-eye view, we readers know that “Arya” deserves to be saved from her fate with Ramsay and we know that the North deserves to be free of Bolton rule. But, is this a dishonorable thing that Jon will pay for? Is it unfair that the leader of the Night’s Watch is getting involved in affairs of the realm when none of his brothers are allowed to rescue their family members from terrible fates due to the war? Dolorous Edd is aware (and seems to be the only NW member who is) that Jon has sent Mance to Winterfell for a personal reason. I’m almost certain that Edd is on Jon’s side in all things, but there is always the possibility that he talked before he was sent off with Iron Emmet.

Finally, we end with:

When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those.

Is it good for a leader to have doubts? Do his doubts assist or impede him? How do his doubts compare to Dany's?

[Fire Eater]

Finally, we end with:

When Jon had been a boy at Winterfell, his hero had been the Young Dragon, the boy king who had conquered Dorne at the age of fourteen. Despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, Jon Snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as King Daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. Now he was a man grown and the Wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. He could not even seem to conquer those.

Is it good for a leader to have doubts? Do his doubts assist or impede him? How do his doubts compare to Dany's?

Excellent post as always.

Jon dreamed of being a conqueror and glory when he was boy, but now that he is a man, having listened to Maester Aemon's advice "Kill the boy and let the man be born" he has put away childlish things. Dany is a conqueror, having embraced that identity, and she is still a girl, having an affair with Daario and making rash decisions when angry, like with letting the wineseller's daughters being tortured.

Jon also seems to be getting ideas to deal with the problem of feeding the Night's Watch and the wildlings through winter. Dany is still having trouble in trying to figure out how to get Meereen's economy going.

[Larry of the Lawn]

.

[Dacie]

Great post, Dr. Pepper!

I quite like the symmetry between this opening sequence and that of the previous Dany chapter. Both are leaving the safety and security behind their respective walls, both do so against the counsel of their advisers, Marsh and Selmy, both could be viewed as foolish mistakes. Dany risks exposing herself and those with her to the flux, Jon risks an attack by Wildlings, wights, or Others.

However, while Dany must shame the men with her into going out and helping, Jon's brothers are actually the ones who request to go beyond the Wall. He gave them a choice of where to swear their vows and they chose the weirwoods, therefore he will accommodate them.

(On a side note, the NW oath may be one of my favorite passages in the books. It still gets to me every time it's repeated)

We talked in the last Jon chapter about whether Jon was more perceptive in seeing the changes in RattleMance's glamor during their fight. I wonder if this isn't true in this chapter also. As the new recruits are saying their vows in front of the Old Gods, he notices their voices becoming deeper and stronger. Granted it could just be their confidence increasing. Or, is there really something to the theory that saying the NW oath in front of a Weirwood holds some deeper meaning?

On having self-doubt, I think a small dose is healthy for any leader. It keeps them humble. While we hear Jon's inner struggle with his actions, I think when he speaks to his men he generally does so with confidence and conviction. This is extremely important. You may think you're the biggest idiot and have no clue what you're doing. But if others think you've got it together they'll generally have confidence in your decisions.*

* Real life example: I'm an ER nurse, and working with a doctor who is as panicked as you are during a bad situation is terrifying. However, even if you know they probably have no clue what to do, if they remain cool and calm and smart, it's easy to follow their lead.

[Lyanna Stark]

And yet, when we saw Robert, we learned that his only true friends, the only people whom he could trust were his foster-father and foster-bother. Where were all those "friends" he supposedly made during the Rebellion? Why didn't his former squires become his friends, like Rhaegar's did? Etc. No, IMHO Robert had an ability to dazzle people with his charisma and make them follow him, but not to make real friends or to inspire long-lasting loyalty.

I agree with what you said re: Dany's lack of experience with friendship due to her circumstances. It is a bit strange that Dany didn't interact with other high-ranking Dothraki women at all. But then, power imbalance would have been there even then and many cultures iRL didn't think highly of female friendship, IIRC.

And, for that matter, it didn't look to me like Drogo had any friends either. Theirs was a very hierarchical society, maybe?

Isn't one of the main points of the Leadership storylines to show that to lead is to BE alone? It is lonely at the top, so to speak. If you don't have friends already, they are extremely hard to come by, and the friends you have may not be the same once you gain power (example: Jon Snow distancing himself).

It's also clear that Dany has not had friends in her life before, and especially lacking is the female influence. Did this girl ever have any women around her? I wonder if this is why she is so taken with older women with authority - is Daenerys Targaryen subconsciously looking for her mother? She certainly takes on the role herself, so I'd say yes.

Another interesting thing is how she has to cling to Viserys' shit advice in lack of better ones. With regards to the bloody flux, she thinks:

Viserys had oft claimed that the Targaryens were untroubled by pestilences that afflicted common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and afraid, but never sick.

Barristan must have known about the Targaryens dying in the Great Spring sickness, among other things, so he could easily have correcter Dany here, but he chooses not to. *sigh* Barry might be a good knight, but he is a lousy adviser. He does almost nothing to correct Dany's misconceptions, and instead he is feeding her more, about how the people will be ever so happy to bend the knee to her should she just show up.

[The Sleeper]

Jon also seems to be getting ideas to deal with the problem of feeding the Night's Watch and the wildlings through winter. Dany is still having trouble in trying to figure out how to get Meereen's economy going.

To be fair, Jon is on the stage of examining options and the one he mentions seems to me a bit unrealistic. Dany was at the stage of implementing policies, like trying to reestablish trade, planting beans and olives and making a trade agreement with the Lhazarene.

[Winterfellian]

Thanks Dr. Pepper for the review!

One of the things that struck me in this chapter is that, like in Dany's last, we are subjected yet again to traditions. In contrasting stands Dany scorns and is ignorant regarding Mereen's traditions while Jon seems to understand the meaning behind the ones in the Night's Watch and value them.

What I find interesting is that in Dany's case even Hizdahr dismissed their traditions as useless and empty. But why? I think it was Tze who made a great post last time about how much of the wedding traditions were actually real and not a way of the GG and others to have her commit a major faux pas

Traditions are important. Aside from conveying,through time,a unique cultural knowledge and heritage that is increasingly important to the history of a people and a memory that allows them to locate themselves in time as historical beings and specific purposes traditions also allow each citizen to identify with their own culture. Hence the important of knowing them and understand them, specially if you are trying to adapt or rule a new society.

I feel the scene in the wood reflect Jon and Dany's way of viewing their subjects and the reason why they appreciate traditions so differently. When Jon looks at his recruits and the free folk he sees only men. He knows they are different, comes from different backgrounds, etc. but at the end of the day they are only men and therefore he is able to respect them better for it despite of their culture or Gods.

Dany, on the oher hand, seems unable to make this separation. People are either her children or her enemies/slavers (I think we discussed some of this in the last thread). She's unable to view them as just people and therefore doesn't take any steps to at least comprehend them better while at the same time is trying to bring a cultural transition of epic scales. How can she achieve this if she doesn't take the time to understand what is it she's trying to change?

However, while Dany must shame the men with her into going out and helping, Jon's brothers are actually the ones who request to go beyond the Wall. He gave them a choice of where to swear their vows and they chose the weirwoods, therefore he will accommodate them.

I find it interesting that the younger recruits chose the Old Gods. Considering they jumped to defend Jon when he fought Rattleshirt, I wonder if they have some sort of admiration for him and therefore chose to take his Gods because of his influence over them. Looks like most of Jon's opposition comes from old timers such as Marsh.

[David Selig]

Maybe it's a stupid question, but it really bugged me on my recent reread - why did Jon and the recruits had to risk (it was emphasised in the chapter that it was quite a big risk) going North of the wall to swear the vows? Aren't there any weirwoods and heart-trees south of the Wall close enough to Castle Black?

[Maia]

Isn't one of the main points of the Leadership storylines to show that to lead is to BE alone? It is lonely at the top, so to speak. If you don't have friends already, they are extremely hard to come by, and the friends you have may not be the same once you gain power (example: Jon Snow distancing himself).

Maybe, but another point of leadership is winning and keeping loyalty of quality people and employing them. I'd argue that Robert was only able to secure short-term loyalty and his ability to make "friends" was severely overstated. The only friends he ever mentions are his foster-father and foster-brother, so it isn't like he was great at making true friends even before he became king. And once he is king, he doesn't even have a household knight or similar that is truly devoted to him. Not even his former squires chose to stick around and serve him.

So, he is definitely not an example for Dany or Jon to follow.

I wonder if this is why she is so taken with older women with authority - is Daenerys Targaryen subconsciously looking for her mother?

Oh, absolutely. Among other things, Dany subconsciously understands that she can't completely pattern herself after a man, not that she has any great examples to emulate there either.

He does almost nothing to correct Dany's misconceptions, and instead he is feeding her more, about how the people will be ever so happy to bend the knee to her should she just show up.

Indeed. But of course, it is consistent with his characterization as, seemingly the only KG who was excluded from Rhaegar's plans and the one who went to serve Robert the Usurper beside the Kingslayer.... He doesn't even suggest that Dany should polish up her Westerosi heraldry or tell her how the system really works in Westeros, so that maybe she could use some elements in Meeren. Instead, Viserys's tales and adventure stories is all she has to go on, sigh.

To be fair, Jon is on the stage of examining options and the one he mentions seems to me a bit unrealistic. Dany was at the stage of implementing policies, like trying to reestablish trade, planting beans and olives and making a trade agreement with Meereen.

Indeed, and then the solution came out of the left field for Jon, with that banker giving him a credit despite NW lacking any faith-inspiring collateral.

Re: Jon understanding and valuing NW traditions, while Dany does the opposite with Ghiskari ones - well, of course. It is not much of an achievement, given how he was raised and him voluntarily becoming a member. Ditto his understanding of the followers of the old gods. IMHO, it is a false dichotomy, frankly.

And yes, I can only agree with David Selig's question about the weirwoods south of the Wall. There should be some, surely. In fact, it is pretty incomprehensible that they don't have a heart tree right there at Castle Black.

[Dacie]

Maybe it's a stupid question, but it really bugged me on my recent reread - why did Jon and the recruits had to risk it (i was emphasised in the chapter that it was quite a big risk) going North of the wall to swear the vows? Aren't there any weirwoods and heart-trees south of the Wall close enough to Castle Black?

I thought of that too. I wondered if there's not a particular grove of trees or something that's supposed to be a more sacred place? Were they heading to the same spot where Jon and Sam said their vows? I haven't read AGoT in a while and can't remember right off.

[Budj]

I think the new recruits definitely had respect for Jon as influence in their decision to swear to the tree.

[Winterfellian]

Maybe it's a stupid question, but it really bugged me on my recent reread - why did Jon and the recruits had to risk (it was emphasised in the chapter that it was quite a big risk) going North of the wall to swear the vows? Aren't there any weirwoods and heart-trees south of the Wall close enough to Castle Black?

So far as I can recall, the grove is the closest thing they got. Back in AGOT, Mormont told Jon the following before he took his vows:

''Castle Black has no need of a godswood. Beyong the wall the haunted forest stands as it stood in the Dawn Age, long before the Andals brought the seven across the narrow sea. You will find a grove of weirwoods haf a league from the spot, and mayhaps your Gods as well''

I think this indicates that this is the place where those who kept the Old Gods swore the vow. I don't think there is evidenece in the text that suggests the existence of a closer godswood so it stands to reason that the grove was the closest thing they have. Also, is not like the King's Road is particularly safe also.

As for the risk, yes I feel it was important and is not like Jon is forcing anyone. All the recruits voluntarily chose the Old Gods even knowing the risk. As their commander he had to respect that decision. Specially when he's in such a delicate position with all the religious upheaval in the wall. Jon has to mantain the position of neutrality he has adopted in this regard. Just like he can't force someone to embrace or deny Melissandre's God he can't force the Old Gods or the new ones over the men under his command.

What I find interesting is his reasoning for going to the weirwood shows his understanding and respect traditons that go back thousands of years otherwise Jon will run the risk of isolating himself even more.

Sometimes you have to take this risk. Like Dany and the sick Astapori. She run a risk by going to see them but she definitely needed to see their suffering through her own eyes and not through someone else's report.

ETA:

Re: Jon understanding and valuing NW traditions, while Dany does the opposite with Ghiskari ones - well, of course. It is not much of an achievement, given how he was raised and him voluntarily becoming a member. Ditto his understanding of the followers of the old gods. IMHO, it is a false dichotomy, frankly.

And yes, I can only agree with David Selig's question about the weirwoods south of the Wall. There should be some, surely. In fact, it is pretty incomprehensible that they don't have a heart tree right there at Castle Black.

Didn't Dany voluntarily self proclaimed herself queen of Mereen?

The problem is not that she doesn't know their culture is that she sees them as something either not worthy of knowing or mistakenly believes that wearing a Tokar is que equivalent of understanding the aspects of their culture while at the same time she wants them to make a peaceful cultural and economic transition from slavery to whatever it is she wants to replace their economy with. This misconceptions have left her open to become a pawn of those who know better, like the GG.

I don't really follow your logic of how is Jon understanding of the followers of the Old Gods a false dichotomy given that the a false dichotomy is an extremely complex subject. However since it often involves affirming that 2 views or solutions are the only possible ones when in reality there are many others. How is it that Jon understanding or respecting the followers of the Old Gods a false dichotomy? Specially since he left it very clear that he will not impose his religious views on anyone as a price for entering the realm.

As for the weirwood in Castle Black, the text is very clear that there isn't one nor does it provide evidence of any other nearby, so those who worship the Old Gods must go somewhere else. How is this Jon's fault? If you are going to put blame over this why not Martin who didn't write a weirwood there in the first place or the hundreds of commanders in charge of the wall before Jon and didn't bother to plant one?

[Ice Turtle]

A little off topic, there was a young weirwood at Nightfort mentioned when Bran was there, but Jon doesn't know about it (or he made no mention of it in his POV). I just hope that builders haven't cut it down.

[Harlaw's Book]

This is one of my favorite chapters.

I don't know if anything more will come out of Satin being from the Reach and Arron and Emrick being the Westerlands, but I love that people that come from the factions currently controlling the Iron Throne decided to swear to a weirwood.

It's the same grove where Jon and Sam took their oaths. And here is what I found to be a interesting on my AGOT reread, Bowen Marsh saw Jon and Sam take their vows. There are a couple of other things interesting things about Marsh in the Tyrion dines with Mormont and the Night's Watch officers chapter. First, Marsh thinks Thorne's nicknames for the recruits are funny. The other is what Mormont has to say about Marsh. "In two years I will be seventy. Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are."

Now I have a lot of questions about Marsh. Who is this guy? How did he end up in the Night's Watch? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't House Marsh from the neck? If that is true, then isn't it likely that Marsh follows the old gods? Does Marsh saying that everyone can take their oath in the sept mean Marsh has foresaken his religion? If Marsh doesn't hold that sacred anymore, is it really surprising that Marsh does what he does?

Another thing, didn't the Stark that claimed the Neck have to fight the Marsh king? Is the Marsh king an ancestor of Bowen's? If true I don't how important that will be to Bowen specifically, but I think that it might interesting to think about that in light of analyzing how much the characters try to or unconsciously emulate figures from the past. The chapter ends with Jon thinking of his dreams of being like his boyhood hero, Daeron I. However, I think Jon has become more like Daeron II.

[Maia]

''Castle Black has no need of a godswood. Beyong the wall the haunted forest stands as it stood in the Dawn Age, long before the Andals brought the seven across the narrow sea. You will find a grove of weirwoods haf a league from the spot, and mayhaps your Gods as well''

The interesting, but unrelated thing here is that Mormont says _your_ gods. So was he of the Faith, like, presumably, Ser Jorah? Female Mormonts seem to be followers of the Old Gods.

And I could see how going beyond the Wall to swear the vows evolved as a final test for recruits, who would be crossing the Wall for the first time. But with so many being of the Faith later on and there being a sept there, it just became somewhat unbalanced. It isn't like the men can go there on their own to worship and pray. So yes, IMHO previous LCs should have planted a weirwood in Castle Black.

Not Jon's fault, naturally, but they should be looking for replacement weirwood now when it will only become prohibitively more dangerous to go out there.

And yes, increased numbers of recruits wanting to swear to the Old Gods are due to Jon's influence. Young men emulating young LC, to whom theyr feel more connected.

Didn't Dany voluntarily self proclaimed herself queen of Mereen?

Sure, but not because she was raised to think Meerenese society and it's tradition to be worthy, like Jon was versus NW! She took over Meeren because she found it's society apalling. Which is why she has no respect or understanding for their traditions or religion. She is trying to superficially ally herself with the elites, because Astapor showed that the freed slaves can't rule immediately themselves. Not that I agree with her, mind you - learning what you are dealing with can only help, but her situation is not comparable to Jon's, who was raised to admire NW, to worship the Old Gods, etc.

Would Jon have been able to understand the wildlings as well as he does, if he hadn't been forced to live among them? Or if they had a different religion?

How is it that Jon understanding or respecting the followers of the Old Gods a false dichotomy? Specially since he left it very clear that he will not impose his religious views on anyone as a price for entering the realm.

It is a false dichotomy because he is dealing with his co-religionists, while Dany isn't. So, of course he understands them. I mean, duh.

But I saw no sign that he understood followers of the Faith and R'llorists well and saw how their religions might influence their actions and their reactions to him. Or that his knowledge of religions themselves went beyond the trappings. So, in this Jon was exactly like Dany, rather than different/superior, IMHO.

Neither Jon or Dany impose their religious views on anybody.

[Teal'c]

Isn't one of the main points of the Leadership storylines to show that to lead is to BE alone? It is lonely at the top, so to speak. If you don't have friends already, they are extremely hard to come by, and the friends you have may not be the same once you gain power (example: Jon Snow distancing himself).

It's also clear that Dany has not had friends in her life before, and especially lacking is the female influence. Did this girl ever have any women around her? I wonder if this is why she is so taken with older women with authority - is Daenerys Targaryen subconsciously looking for her mother? She certainly takes on the role herself, so I'd say yes...

I would like to add that isolation is not only an earmark of leadership, but also a mark of being the hero. The hero leaves his mentors and companions behind and continues his quest alone.

Because the hero is fostered outside of his or her family of origin, he is prepared for the isolation in this part of the quest. The step-child is a second-class member of the family, and must therefore develop skills of situational awareness and self sufficiency. Judgement and self sufficiency are prerequisite for effective leadership skills, as is familiarity with isolation.

[Winterfellian]

It is a false dichotomy because he is dealing with his co-religionists, while Dany isn't. So, of course he understands them. I mean, duh.

But I saw no sign that he understood followers of the Faith and R'llorists well and saw how their religions might influence their actions and their reactions to him. Or that his knowledge of religions themselves went beyond the trappings. So, in this Jon was exactly like Dany, rather than different/superior, IMHO.

Ok I see the point you were trying to make! Of course Jon will always understand them better than Dany does the Mereesene. In the last thread it was fairly stablished that is one of the advantages he has over Dany. What I find easy to criticize is Dany's unaction where acquiring knowledge is concerned.

You mentioned she despise their society. I don't fault her for hating their society the problem is that the changes she's trying to implement involve a radical cultural trancision. How is she going to accomplish this if she doesn't understand what is she trying to change? Or even if she can use some elements of their own culture to further her views. Like I mentioned earlier is this lack of knowledge and unaction to acquire it that leaves her at the mercy of others who hold knowledge.

Jon isn't just dealing with his co-religionists. There are lots of factions in the wall: Black brothers, wildings, King's men, Queen's men. He has to navigate his way around them and at the same time mantain his hold of power. The way he chose to approach these is through knowing them.It is explicitly mentioned in one of the early Jon chapters that he's doing all he can to learn everything he can about the King and Queen's men. In other words, when he doesn't know or understand something he goes out of his way to procure the knowledge to understand it.

This is the same principle he applied when he took those corpses back to the wall.

I find it interesting that you brought up the concept os co-religionists, as this is a term that can be applied to politics as well. It made me think how co-religionates can become power bases. While Jon has co-religionists that shares his religious views, Dany has co-religionists in the political and military sense. Mainly Barristan along with her army of unsullied and her sellwswords companies. This last ones constitute a power base of their own and it's quite an advantage.