Learning to lead III: the search for decisive actions, a re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[Winter's Knight]

Isn't this exactly what I've been saying all along? I said that "Dracarys" was an example of "good" destruction, but it was everything that came afterwards that was the mess. If Dany had left Astapor stable, she'd still be a hero despite destroying the city.

She left Astapor in the hands of a seemingly qualified professionals-a scholar, a healer and a priest. Older and wiser heads than hers have made the mistake of confusing education as a qualification leadership but she didn't leave the city without anyone to guide it.

[Loras]

Throughout the recent chapters of the read I have come to the conclusion that Dany is mirroring Bowen Marsh more closely than she is Jon Snow. Jon lived amongst the Wildlings and so he has a unique perspective amongst the members of the Watch. Jon can see the 'Wildlings' as more than dangerous savages because he has lived amongst them, experienced their culture first hand and forged relationships with them. Marsh meanwhile has a similar view to Jon at the beginning of 'A Storm of Swords', he sees them as uneducated savages. His motivation is merely to spy on them, learn their secrets and inform the Watch so that they can be defeated. Jon now sees this attitude as 'wrong'. He spends very little time communicating with his officers or trying to educate them about the Wildlings; instead he forces them upon his men. Obviously this is not going to sit well with Marsh.

Dany meanwhile, has conquered the Slaver Cities because they are 'savages' and treat people unfairly. Again she has had no opportunity to learn about their culture, no chance for her opinion to evolve. Dany sees them in the same broad stroke that Marsh sees the Wildlings in. Her advisors all have a vested interest in restoring their culture, something that Dany will never fully embrace.

As for Hizdahr, the more I think about him and consider him on reread, I think that he is a very good match for Dany. I actually think that Hizdahr is somewhat loyal to Dany, because she is where his supremacy of Meereen comes from. I think that he actually is honest when he says that the old way should be reinvented. He is a pawn being used by the Green Grace in a similar way to Cersei being used by the High Septon.

I am writing my thoughts on the latest Dany chapter just now, but was interested to see if anyone else saw parallels between Dany and Marsh?

[Blisscraft]

I vehemently disagree on how a destruction of two cities can be a good on it's own. It's really hard to justify killing a whole city, and even if it's possible it's usually for a very good reason.

On the same note, I wonder how 'good' destruction can be in the Song of Ice and Fire universe. As many people pointed out, destruction is a part of the forever cycle in many mythologies, but Martin tends to deconstruct and subvert tropes in his books, and in real life destruction is almost never a good thing. It's hard to find a good thing coming out of destruction, except maybe better safety procedures. When it comes to social order and political system violent changes probably never have led to anything good, and revolutions end in massive bloodshed and often even more oppressive regimes than before. The revolutions usually (though I admit, not always) are not forcing changes, but the rather result of changes already happening. Changing anything for the better, on the other hand, takes hard work and time, and often results from technological advancement.

I do not expect destruction to be shown in positive light in the course of the books.

I don't think the destruction will be in a positive light. It can't be. What comes after, the rebuilding, the remaking, the rebirth is what creates balance. For example, in Westeros, it has been too long a summer. Life is out of balance. Winter is coming and finally there. Cold and ice and snow are as destructive as fire as in the Reek (Theon) and Asha chapters. In that frozen world, fire is the difference between life and death, just as it is North of the Wall.

It is too early to assume that Dany will use her dragons simply to destroy (and all the abusive, bullying, hyperbole aside). There are two books remaining to be written and read.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If she is Azor Ahai Reborn, she is the only person who can lead the people against the Others. As Maester Aemon said, following a false candidate (i.e. Stannis) will just push the world into further darkness.

Quite right. All the more reason why it troubles me that so many people (on here and in the books) want to follow Dany.

I don't think it counts as "deus ex-ish" unless she simply shows up and defeats the Others straight away (like Stannis with the wildlings), which I haven't suggested. Clearly, if you've been reading the thread closely, you'll see my point is that Dany has to force Westeros to submit to her so she can lead a unified kingdom to war.

You'll forgive me if I'm not keen on the idea of Dany destroying Westeros in an ego trip in order to "save it." That sounds like a serious case of, "I know best and will destroy you if you disagree with me." Not having it, never will.

Considering that the foundation was laid for Stannis going North before he showed up at the Wall, I don't think that can count as a deus ex. On the flip side, absolutely nothing, anywhere, in any of Dany's arc so far suggests that she'll actually fight the Others. Not even the House of the Undying alleged life blueprint points to it anywhere that I can see.

Furthermore, the majority of the people in Westeros don't know about the Others. Does that mean that every character apart from Jon, Stannis and Bran needs to just sit back and get out of the story because their presence will be too "deus ex-ish" for you?

And most people in Westeros will still probably learn about the Others well before Dany, even if they don't believe in them now.

Isn't this exactly what I've been saying all along? I said that "Dracarys" was an example of "good" destruction, but it was everything that came afterwards that was the mess. If Dany had left Astapor stable, she'd still be a hero despite destroying the city.

But she didn't, so, I reserve the right to not think of her as a hero. No one gets any points for "ifs."

[butterbumps!]

hello, all. Here's the next installment. Apologies for the length; this chapter has a lot of info/ foreshadowing, so I included less of my own analysis and focused on a more detailed summary (it's still super long).

Jon IX

Overview

The chapter opens with Jon receiving Selyse and her retinue at Castle Black, who came from Eastwatch. Traveling with them is the Iron Banker, Tycho Nestoris, who seeks a word with Stannis about the Iron Throne’s debt. Jon takes Tycho aside to discuss borrowing the Braavosi’s three ships bringing the total “fleet” to Hardhome up to 11. Jon also arranges terms for a loan to keep the NW fed until spring.

Tycho and Jon go to dinner in the Hall where they are joined by Axell Florent, the Queen’s Hand. He asks about Val, trying to confirm his suspicions that Jon has let her go. Jon diplomatically dodges Axell’s rudeness, and retires to his chambers. He falls asleep, thinking over the Iron Bank and the Lannister’s default of their loan, which gives him new hope for Stannis’ victory.

He’s awoken sharply in the night because a young girl has turned up at Castle Black. With excitement, he goes to Aemon’s chambers to see her, and realizes it is not Arya as he hoped, but Alys Karstark. Alys implores Jon to protect her from her great-uncle, Cregan, who is trying to gain title to Karhold through marriage to her. She tells Jon that she’s coming to him rather than to Stannis, because Stannis will not be king: she informs Jon that the Karstarks are planning to betray Stannis as they have been long allied with the Boltons.

Observations

• The Queen’s retinue does not like Wun Wun. Jon tells Leathers to take him back to Hardin’s tower to eat, and Leathers requests wine. Jon says: “ ‘For you, not him.’ [Wun Wun] had taken a gigantic liking to it. Too much a liking. Jon had enough to contend with just now without adding a drunken giant to the mix.” ( :lmao: )
  
• When Axell says that all of the giants are supposed to be dead, Patchface begins singing: “In the dark the dead are dancing.”
  
• Despite the ugly rumors about bloodthirsty giants, Wun Wun is a vegetarian.
  

Analysis

This chapter is broken into roughly 6 thematic “interactions.”

Jon + Selyse: “Should the Others turn up, do you plan to offer hospitality to them as well?”

Queen Selyse “descends” on Castle Black; the fact that they “descend” connotes a tone of nuisance and aggression, suggesting their presence is something of an imposition. Jon notes that they may be Queen’s Men, “but it is Melisandre they serve.”

Cotter Pyke has apparently given Jon full disclosure about his thoughts on Selyse and her retinue, all of it scathing. It seems that Jon has been warned that this Queen is keen on “trappings:” “It would never do to come before this queen without a retinue of his own, if half of what they said of her was true.” True enough, when Jon welcomes her with a bow, she asks to be taken to his Lord Commander, mistaking him for a boy. For modern eyes, I think that the way Selyse comes across is meant to come across as pompous, and furthers our sympathies toward Jon, who we know has more pressing business than entertaining a queen’s expectations of display.

Jon is quite unimpressed by Selyse. She thanks him for making room for her, but Jon thinks: “The queen’s words were courteous enough, though her tone said, It is no more than your duty, and you had best hope these quarters please me.” Jon lets her know that the quarters at the Nightfort may not be to her standards yet, and suggests that she might be more comfortable at Eastwatch.

Selyse: “We are done with Eastwatch. We did not like it there. A queen should be mistress beneath her own roof. We found your Cotter Pyke to be an uncouth and unpleasant man, quarrelsome and niggardly.”

You should hear what Cotter says of you.

They’re interrupted by the emergence of Wun Wun, who says a few words in the common tongue, and kneels before the queen as Leathers had taught him. Selyse calls the giant a “filthy creature,” and demands to know why he’s on this side of the Wall. Jon tells her that Wun Wun is a guest, just as she is. The Queen’s Men are clearly uncomfortable and infuriated by the giant’s presence so Jon has Leathers take him away. As a coup de grace of this exchange, Ser Patrek expresses outrage over “giant-gate,” and before escorting Selyse to her chambers snarks, “Tell me, Lord Commander, should the Others turn up do you plan to offer hospitality as well?”

Jon + Tycho: “We do not jape of dragons.”

Back in Jon’s apartments, he and Tycho begin negotiations to aid the NW. Jon inquires into the nature of Tycho’s interest in Stannis, and Tycho lets him know that the Iron Throne has ceased repayment. Jon thinks: “Could the Lannisters truly be so foolish?” Tycho tells Jon that is Stannis proves worthy of trust, the Iron Bank plans to support him in whatever help he needs.

Jon offers help to Tycho reach Stannis, as it will be dangerous. Tycho tells him “Those who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve the Iron Throne.” Jon thinks, “Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain.” There’s something of a disconnect between the “Iron Throne” and the “Realm,” and it’s a man not sitting the Throne who has taken the call of duty to the NW. It’s a rough position for Jon to be in, and Jon allows himself to be hopeful about Stannis’ victory.

Jon asks whether Tycho came across Sam + Co. when they passed through Braavos. Tycho says no, but that he’s heard “queer talk of dragons.” Jon jokes that a dragon would be good at the Wall as an HVAC system. Tycho, unamused says: “We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords.”

Jon + Axell: “I can have this wildling girl delivered naked to the hall for our inspection.”

In the dining hall, Jon sees Axell, and recalling the story of how he let his brother be burned by Mel thinks “If he is not a kinslayer he’s the next best thing…What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?” It is clear that Jon does not care for this man. Given the way Axell speaks of women, I believe the intention is for the readers to view him unfavorably as well, and by this juxtaposition, sympathize with Jon.

Axell joins Jon and begins asking uncomfortable questions about Val. He tries to explain that she is not actually a “princess,” and that he will not bring her to Axell: “She is not a horse to be paraded for inspection, ser.” Jon thinks that Axell likely knows the rumors about letting Val go, but he simply refuses to answer further questions. Axell continues to refer to Val as “wench,” and speaks of her in quite unsavory terms. Enraged at Jon’s refusal to show him Val, Axell boasts that he could go to Selyse and have Val paraded in the hall naked for inspection. Jon says simply that “The queen would never presume upon our hospitality,” and walks away from the table.

Jon + Jon: “When the choice is death or debt, best borrow.”

Jon returns to his chambers and thinks over the Iron Bank loan: “That was simple. Simpler than I dared hope. Simpler than it should have been.” He feels uneasy about it, worried that he has shackled the Watch with a debt they will never get out of, but thinks that debt is better than certain death; at least debt brings hope.

He also muses about the ramifications of what the Iron Bank’s interest in Stannis will be: “When princes failed to repay the Iron Bank, new princes sprang up from nowhere and took their thrones.” He thinks: “Unless Stannis is lying dead…he may just have won the Iron Throne.”

Jon + Jon: “Did [Melisandre] have some other task for Mance?”

Jon is shaken awake by Mully because a girl has turned up in the night. Jon’s first thought is Val, but he’s told that Ty and Dannel found this girl 2 leagues south of Moletown. He thinks: “A grey girl on a dying horse..But what had become of Mance Rayder?” As he walks to see the girl, he looks at Mel’s bright windows, wondering “What game are you playing, priestess? Dis you have some other task for Mance?” I’m emphasizing these references to Mance, because it would seem to plant seeds that there is something more going on in sending Mance south than finding Arya.

Jon is trying not to get his hopes up that it is in fact Arya. He does not want to turn her over to Stannis or Mel, fearing that Stannis would arrange her marriage. He considers sending Arya back to Braavos with Tycho, worried about he could provide for her, since she’s just a child. Alas, it’s not Arya.

Jon + Alys: “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you.”

Alys implores Jon for sanctuary from her uncle Cregan who seeks to marry her for control of Karhold. She appeals to Jon specifically, because she believes Stannis will be defeated, as she knows the Karstarks plan to turn on him, and that Jon is her “only hope” for protection.

Alys worries that there may be bad blood between them because Robb killed her father for murdering those Lannister boys:

He maintains politeness, but Selyse interjects, insisting that Eastwatch isn’t safe for Shireen, “the heir.”

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Butterbumps, I'm going to write a longer response to your thread, but just a heads up that it's Axell, not Axelle. Axell is only Axelle on certain nights of the month when "Rocky Horror Picture Show" midnight showings occur at the local multiplex. ;)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

*flexes fingers*

On Wun Wun

I love Wun Wun. I love that, like you pointed out, he's a vegetarian. I love that Jon is as courteous and accommodating for Wun Wun as he is to Selyse.

On Selyse Baratheon

This is an encounter where I think the people have a point when they complain about Jon's opposition being clearly made of "lesser stuff." Sure, Jon is unimpressed by Selyse, but who isn't?

On Tycho

Jon is clearly familiar with the Iron Bank and the consequences involved if one doesn't pay up. (Ignoring the irony of the Lannisters skipping out on their debts.)

For me, this exchange isn't important for what's in it, but for what's not. If Tycho has heard of dragons, would he also not have heard about Dany's abolitionist movement? If people in Volantis know what she's doing now, I would think that people in Braavos would, too. But Tycho says nothing to the effect of, "But whereas the old Valyrians used dragons to enslave, the new queen uses them to free people." There is no nuance or qualifier to Tycho's opinion of dragons: no way, no how. This is why I'm skeptical about the idea that Braavos would side with Dany "if they only knew" about her mission — they'd almost have to know about it by now, and yet Tycho (and he speaks on behalf of other Braavosi) isn't budging.

On Axell Florent

My major takeaway from this is that Jon knows that Axell watched Stannis and Melisandre burn his brother alive for treason. He asks how someone could stand by while his brother burned, and it's clear that Jon doesn't approve of that and thinks substantially less of Axell because of it. *cough* Might this insight not pertain as much to Axell presently, but be a hint as to how Jon might perceive Dany?

I like how he stands up for Val while pragmatically bluffing that he still has her.

Jon and Debt

I'm under the impression that Jon is using the surrendered wildling loot as collateral on the loan. I do tend to agree with him though — good credit isn't worth much if you're dead. I'll see how the Iron Bank plays out with Stannis before I make any calls there. At this point it's still too shaky and vague for me.

Jon and Melisandre's Mission for Mance

This should be Exhibit A that Jon only expected Mance to pick up this "Arya" off the road and no more. These complaints that he explicitly sent Mance directly to Winterfell and that he broke his vows in doing so are complete bunk. Jon doesn't know where Mance is or what he's doing, now that the girl has arrived and yet Mance is still missing.

Jon and Alys

I love this interaction. It's very sweet but also shores up the point that in the North, the Stark name and reputation carries a vast amount of weight, extending even to a bastard Stark in the Night's Watch. He holds nothing against Alys, and his explanation of Rickard's actions seems to show that he agreed with or at least justified Robb's execution of him. He's sticking up for Robb's actions in punishing Rickard, but doing so in a way that's diplomatic and doesn't alienate him further from Alys. Moreover, he demonstrates that he does not view petty, spiteful vengeance (e.g. Rickard murdering two squires) as an appropriate course of action.

That Alys is pinning her hopes on Jon and not Stannis, while Jon is pinning his on Stannis, is an interesting dynamic, and one that might be elaborated upon later, depending on the motives and mindset of other northern lords. (I'm thinking of Manderly and wedding songs.)

[Winter's Knight]

Is anyone else interested in how Jon is aware of the Stark/Karstark debacle? Wasn't he with Qhorn or already infiltrating the wldlings when this occurred?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is anyone else interested in how Jon is aware of the Stark/Karstark debacle? Wasn't he with Qhorn or already infiltrating the wldlings when this occurred?

I think he probably got a rundown "off-screen" from the guys who were left at the Wall. He never finds out what happened to Robb "on-screen," either, yet still he somehow knows about it.

[Arya Targaryen]

Actually I find it more confusing that he knew Slynt was involved in Ned's death. I understand that the NW got regular reports on everything, but would anybody really include Slynt's role?

[Winter's Knight]

Actually I find it more confusing that he knew Slynt was involved in Ned's death. I understand that the NW got regular reports on everything, but would anybody really include Slynt's role?

Curiouser and curiouser. Is Jon a clairvoyant?

[The guy from the Vale]

IIRC, Slynt bragged about his role in Ned's death.

[The Snow King]

Actually I find it more confusing that he knew Slynt was involved in Ned's death. I understand that the NW got regular reports on everything, but would anybody really include Slynt's role?

It was Slynt, he did tend to brag about such things.

EDIT: Damn, too slow, must refresh more often :)

[Arya Targaryen]

So much happens offscreen :dunno:

BTW what I really-really would have wanted to see/read, is what exactly did Cotter wrote about Selyse. That must have been priceless... :lol:

[Julian Rayne]

Maybe he's picking up stuff from Arya and Robb via their wolves? Possibly he "knows" without stopping to wonder how he knows. That's why he was so shocked to hear of Brann and Rickon's deaths; he "knew" they were alive, but had no reason to doubt Noye or maester Aemon.

The Slynt boasting also makes sense but he seems to have more detailed information than that.

[Maia]

On the flip side, absolutely nothing, anywhere, in any of Dany's arc so far suggests that she'll actually fight the Others. Not even the House of the Undying alleged life blueprint points to it anywhere that I can see..

Not true. Dany had a dream where she was wearing Rhaegar's armor and riding a dragon while fighting the battle of the Trident... only her opponents were _made of ice_. That was back in AGOT, before she hatched the dragons, IIRC.

IMHO, not only does this dream hint at Dany's role, but also that the Others will make it well into the Riverlands, this time around. Also, this dream parallels a similar dream of Jon in ADwD.

And most people in Westeros will still probably learn about the Others well before Dany, even if they don't believe in them now.

Well, those wildlings from Hardhome are now in Braavos and Lys, so we'll see how fast the word will travel. And Dany is more open towards supernatural, due to her expeiences, than most people in Westeros...

A couple of brief observations about Jon IX:

I find a vegetarian giant not very convincing - there is a reason why peoples who lived in extreme north iRL subsisted almost exclusively on the diet of meat and fish. And yea, getting him used to wine was a serious and dangerous miscalculation, IMHO.

Tycho - why is he giving Jon a loan? NW posesses nothing that could serve as a collateral. Yes, Jon plans on taking tribute from the wildlings, but IIRC it covers only a fraction of the needed amount. Not very believable, I am afraid. Ditto with Stannis. If the Lannisters have problems paying now, how much worse will it be after a lot more of borrowing, fighting and general destruction that would be necessary to put Stannis on the throne?

I understand giving Stannis a loan to punish the Lannisters and threaten them enough to make them to crawl to the Iron Bank with abject apologies, but giving him an unlimited credit seems self-destructive. All in all, the banker seems more than a little deus ex-ish.

Re: rumors of dragons - quite likely that these rumors would be garbled and contradictory, what, with the distance and very different things happening in Astapor, Yunkai and Meeren.

Cregan Karstark is Alys's first cousin once removed, IIRC.

And yes, how does Jon know what happened with Rickard Karstark? This is hardly something that NW needed to be infomed of. Curious.

Also, Jon's rumination re: how Ser Axell is almost a kinslayer shows why the Kingdoms needed NW even in absence of the Others. Or does Jon's disapproval on not defending your condemned brother, guilty or not, only extend to burning and other particularly cruel forms of death? Because if it doesn't, then well, nobody would be able to punish nobles with execution without causing a blood feud.

Oh, and when your "brother" threatens to cut your unborn child out of your womb with a sword, all normal considerations of family loyalty are irrelevant, sorry. I don't understand why this is even brought up?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not true. Dany had a dream where she was wearing Rhaegar's armor and riding a dragon while fighting the battle of the Trident... only her opponents were _made of ice_. That was back in AGOT, before she hatched the dragons, IIRC.

IMHO, not only does this dream hint at Dany's role, but also that the Others will make it well into the Riverlands, this time around. Also, this dream parallels a similar dream of Jon in ADwD.

If anything, those dreams suggest that Dany and Jon will be opponents, not allies. Dany dreams that she's fighting an army armored in ice, and Jon dreams that he's fighting while armored in ice. Seems to shoot to hell any idea that they'll be on the same side.

Well, those wildlings from Hardhome are now in Braavos and Lys, so we'll see how fast the word will travel. And Dany is more open towards supernatural, due to her expeiences, than most people in Westeros...

Yeah sticking a few dragon eggs on a pyre and getting schooled in paranoia in the House of the Undying really qualify her for that sort of thing.

[Kanon]

it troubles me that so many people (on here and in the books) want to follow Dany.

Can you please stop doing this? This thread was my favorite because people could discuss Jon and Dany without trying to start a flame war. Attacking others for liking a character wont improve our understanding of the events or the paralels that GRRM wanted to draw between J and D.

Sorry if im not adding to the conversation, but i dont want to see the ruin of the best DWD threat around here...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Can you please stop doing this? This thread was my favorite because people could discuss Jon and Dany without trying to start a flame war. Attacking others for liking a character wont improve our understanding of the events or the paralels that GRRM wanted to draw between J and D.

I will stop taking shots at her when people stop fan-girling her. Fair? I don't see how one is any worse than the other. Acting like she can do no wrong is also not conducive to "improving our understanding" of these parallels.

[Kanon]

I will stop taking shots at her when people stop fan-girling her. Fair? I don't see how one is any worse than the other. Acting like she can do no wrong is also not conducive to "improving our understanding" of these parallels.

Im talking about being "troubled" that there are people who like her character. You are deliberately trying to get a ruse on people by saying there is something wrong with them for liking a characer. I doubt the mods will agree but to me thats getting close to trolling...