Rereading Tyrion III (ACOK)

[Woman of War]

But on this other point, I am of the basic opinion that Tyrion is an able man in service to a dreadful cause.  That's the root of my morality beliefs in his holding Sansa, but extends to his furthering Lannister objectives while knowing they are very wrong from every angle.

yes , that is a very interesting aspect for a debate: is Tyrion himself convinced to fight for the right cause, the right claim? Does he fight here against better knowledge? Or does he believe the right claim is where his family is?

I think it is the latter. He does his job where his father puts him. Does Tyrion verbalize this potential conflct in his thoughts? Of course he is aware that Joffrey's claim is "illegitimate" so what could he have done in order to act morally? Offer the withdrawal of his family from power, offer an unconditional peace? Not after Ned's beheading, no way. And Stannis would never have refrained form beheading every single Lannister, sweet Tommen and clever charming Myrcella right after Joffrey.

In short: does he know the Lannister cause is wrong from every angle?

AND DO WE KNOW?

Let me play advocata diaboli:

In hindsight we know that Joffrey will be a terrible king and would have been maybe more cruel than Mad Aerys. But Ned ( and Jon Arryn before him) risked a war because of some sperm gone wrong, something 99% of the Westerosi population do not care at all about. But so many of them will starve and get killed for it. I know it started with Bran and the dagger and Baelish's schemes etc etc........ etc etc......

But can any cause be right that involves a continent in a war for a little adultery?

And is Stannis claim more moral, so very more moral that you kill your own brother and a hundred thousand to put your arse on an uncomfortable chair?

And did Robert have the right to start a "rebellion" because his girl preferred someone else?

Only a few random examples to underline my point: Even if the Lannister/Baratheon regime is corrupt, greedy and dangerous: there was not a mass movement by exploited peasants and prostitutes coming to Kings Landing to demand their right of a daily meal and to sweep away corruption. There were privileged Lords fighting for power against each other, sending exactly those peasants to death for their own fame and glory.

So any other ruling house would be a slight improvement for people - or not - but certainly not a quantum leap that is worth a war. Meaning the Lannister objectives are not so very much more wrong than the Tyrell, the Baratheon, the Greyjoy or Tully - or the Stark objectives. Just saying.

Of course we would not have a story otherwise, and there are The Others and the dragons and all the stuff we like. :) And Martin has set up Tyrion's story at this point of the books as the good guy using debatable means in fighting for a bad cause. Is it so simple? The means are certainly debatable, the guy is not as nice as he looks , is the cause as bad as it seems?

Sorry for being off topic. But the only moral option for Tyrion or Renly or Jaime or Margaery or whoever would have been to stay out of it all and to enjoy life on the Arbor or in some library. We can root for our favorite characters to win but I believe we can not honestly say that anyone who actively risked a war here, even if he or she is a really nice person, would be morally superior and in possession of "the right cause" and the other ones are the bad guys.

Discuss! I have worked hard today, I am out for anarchy :commie:

[Blisscraft]

Wonderful, BB! I really appreciate the thoroughness of your posts and interesting analysis. As an added bonus, you write well, too. (I'm gushing like a Spindletop oil rig :dunno: ). If this architech thing doesn't work out, please consider writing.

"King Bread ruled alone" - I agree with you and Lummel in this regard. It reminds me of the adage "the way to a man's heart is through his stomach." Also, it reminds me of the idea of (forgive me as my Catholic schooling returns) "I am the bread and the life;" the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes feeding the masses; The Last Supper; "Jesus took bread and he broke it. . . Do this in rememberance of me;" and The Lord's Prayer, "Give us this day our daily bread." No low carb diets in Holy Writ, apparently. Also, King Bread summons forth the French Revolution and the Marie Antoinette story about "let them eat cake," as it was bread the common people needed.

The hunger for bread is certainly the beginning of revolution for the small folk in Westeros. Previously, a baker was baked in his own oven for allegedly overcharging for it. Tyrion is right to be concerned about it. Too bad, Stannis didn't take a page from El Cid and lob a few loaves over the walls. (Maybe we'll have to wait for that image in Meereen). Also, the power to give bread certainly would shift the balance of power from king, priest or rich man if a baker with bread was added to Varys riddle, as suggested above. Although, I don't think that the idea of a savior presenting himself as "the bread and the life" in a context such as KL under these circumstances should be ruled out. It seems none of us has given very much credit in our readings to the power of the priest in Varys riddle, but as yet, we haven't read about such dire circumstances until now. It may be that the priest (not the High Septon) that will have the last word as to power.

Tyrion/Sansa/Sandor - Thanks to WK and Winterfellian, we have a glimpse of Sansa's importance in this chapter. Previously, The Hound attempts to stop Joffrey's abuse of her by saying "Enough." Of course Joffrey disagrees and orders Boros to, "make her naked." After the horrible incident is stopped by Tyrion, Sandor supplies a cover to Sansa with his "scratchy" white cloak of the Kings Guard. Ragnorak has noted before with Tyrion and his "saving" of Tysha that he gave her his cloak which is a part of the Westerosi marriage ceremony. I thought about his point in regard to this with Sandor and Sansa and Tyrion as witness to it.

When we get to the riot, Tyrion is desparately trying to get some one to find Sansa amid the chaos. Sandor rides in (just like the calvary in a Western) with Sansa, a little worse for wear, but not nearly as harmed as she had been by Joffrey. He has another cloak presumably, torn and stained and blooded. Sandor saves her this time, not Tryion.

Tyrion sees Sansa as important in the bigger picture. Also, Tyrion is a compassionate man. He often hides this by justifying his actions in broader terms, but it seems that his concern over Sansa's welfare is more that simply how it will effect Jaime's welfare. Also, as with Sandor, once Tryion realizes how fearful he is of fire, he understands and feels for him in a very human way. It's back to the "cripples, bastards and broken things," where Tyrion has that soft spot in his heart.

Madonna/Pieta - I searched for an image of a woman holding a dead child over her head not only because this is so powerful and sad, but also because it is both a madonna and child and a pieta. Holding up your arms over your head is a traditional gesture of surrender and show that one is weaponless. "Come out with your hands up!" However, although the starving, wailing woman in this story, holding her dead child over her head, acts as a stop sign or red light to the real parade of horribles.

The mother and child slips through and faces off with Joffrey. The "real horror" is in the mother's eyes as she stares at Joffrey. Joffrey looks as if he means to ride her down, but Sansa stops him with a word probably by telling Joffrey to throw her a coin which he does. The coin, a silver stag, (brings to mind the soldiers coins to Tysha) bounches off the dead child and rolls away distracting the crowd. The mother never blinks, but maintains hold of the child over her head, her arms not only burdened by its "dead weight," but also by the lack of strength in her "skinny" arms. The spell is broken when Cersei speaks.

I can't decide if it's what Cersei says to Joffrey about the woman or the way she says it or that Cersei says anything at all that causes the poor woman's grief to pour out in invective aimed directly at Cercei. Which it may be, the result is "all hell breaking loose." Also, the fact that once Cersei speaks, the woman drops the child "like a sack of flour." Flour? Really?

[Winter's Knight]

The riot-sparking scene has been nagging at me all day and I just realised why: from Dickens' tale of two cities.

"What has gone wrong?" said Monsieur, calmly looking out.

A tall man in a nightcap had caught up a bundle from among the feet of the horses, and had laid it on the basement of the fountain, and was down in the mud and wet, howling over it like a wild animal.

"Pardon, Monsieur the Marquis!" said a ragged and submissive man, "it is a child."

"Why does he make that abominable noise? Is it his child?"

"Excuse me, Monsieur the Marquis—it is a pity—yes."

The fountain was a little removed; for the street opened, where it was, into a space some ten or twelve yards square. As the tall man suddenly got up from the ground, and came running at the carriage, Monsieur the Marquis clapped his hand for an instant on his sword-hilt."Killed!" shrieked the man, in wild desperation, extending both arms at their length above his head, and staring at him. "Dead!"

The people closed round, and looked at Monsieur the Marquis. There was nothing revealed by the many eyes that looked at him but watchfulness and eagerness; there was no visible menacing or anger. Neither did the people say anything; after the first cry, they had been silent, and they remained so. The voice of the submissive man who had spoken, was flat and tame in its extreme submission. Monsieur the Marquis ran his eyes over them all, as if they had been mere rats come out of their holes.

He took out his purse."It is extraordinary to me," said he, "that you people cannot take care of yourselves and your children. One or the other of you is for ever in the way. How do I know what injury you have done my horses. See! Give him that."He threw out a gold coin for the valet to pick up, and all the heads craned forward that all the eyes might look down at it as it fell.

The tall man called out again with a most unearthly cry, "Dead!"

He was arrested by the quick arrival of another man, for whom the rest made way. On seeing him, the miserable creature fell upon his shoulder, sobbing and crying, and pointing to the fountain, where some women were stooping over the motionless bundle, and moving gently about it. They were as silent, however, as the men.

"I know all, I know all," said the last comer. "Be a brave man, my Gaspard! It is better for the poor little plaything to die so, than to live. It has died in a moment without pain. Could it have lived an hour as happily?"

"You are a philosopher, you there," said the Marquis, smiling. "How do they call you?"

"They call me Defarge."

"Of what trade?"

"Monsieur the Marquis, vendor of wine."

"Pick up that, philosopher and vendor of wine," said the Marquis, throwing him another gold coin, "and spend it as you will. The horses there; are they right?"Without deigning to look at the assemblage a second time, Monsieur the Marquis leaned back in his seat, and was just being driven away with the air of a gentleman who had accidentally broke some common thing, and had paid for it, and could afford to pay for it; when his ease was suddenly disturbed by a coin flying into his carriage, and ringing on its floor.

"Hold!" said Monsieur the Marquis. "Hold the horses! Who threw that?"He looked to the spot where Defarge the vendor of wine had stood, a moment before; but the wretched father was grovelling on his face on the pavement in that spot, and the figure that stood beside him was the figure of a dark stout woman, knitting.

"You dogs!" said the Marquis, but smoothly, and with an unchanged front, except as to the spots on his nose: "I would ride over any of you very willingly, and exterminate you from the earth. If I knew which rascal threw at the carriage, and if that brigand were sufficiently near it, he should be crushed under the wheels."

Bliss:Check out this analysis of Picasso's Guernica.

he woman holding her dead baby in her arms repersents innocence lost and unrelenting violence of the bombing. With no regard for civilian casualties the mother shows her pain and suffering with her head dramatically tilted backwards in a scream of rage. The child looks small and frail and peaceful in comparison to the rest of the chaotic painting.

[Blisscraft]

WK - I thought about Picasso's Guernica, too. I was lucky enough to see it when it was still at MOMA. It is a truly frightening and powerful piece. It's also enormous. At the time that I saw it at MOMA, it was right at the top of the stairs. So as you ascended, it came into view: looming, becoming more and more painful with each step upwards and closer. I haven't been to see it's location in Spain. I hope it's new post-Franco position does such a profoundly great work justice. I get goose bumps thinking about it still.

I also thought about Goya as well especially with regard to the upraised arms.(I think Goya's painting is called

"The Shootings of May Third") As for Dickens, I agree it's similar, but there is something about the fact that it's a mother and child in this chapter that seems sadder. :crying:

[Winter's Knight]

WK - I thought about Picasso's Guernica, too. I was lucky enough to see it when it was still at MOMA. It is a truly frightening and powerful piece. It's also enormous. At the time that I saw it at MOMA, it was right at the top of the stairs. So as you ascended, it came into view: looming, becoming more and more painful with each step upwards and closer. I haven't been to see it's location in Spain. I hope it's new post-Franco position does such a profoundly great work justice. I get goose bumps thinking about it still.

I also thought about Goya as well especially with regard to the upraised arms.(I think Goya's painting is called

"The Shootings of May Third") As for Dickens, I agree it's similar, but there is something about the fact that it's a mother and child in this chapter that seems sadder. :crying:

Speaking of mothers, notice how the woman snaps at Cersei's pity? That she broke into fury when confronted with a woman who still has all her children and doesn't have to watch them whimper in hunger-it shows that she sees Joff as a King, someone to be appealed to, an authority figure anointed by the gods but Cersei is just another woman like her, why does she also not suffer?

[Blisscraft]

Speaking of mothers, notice how the woman snaps at Cersei's pity? That she broke into fury when confronted with a woman who still has all her children and doesn't have to watch them whimper in hunger-it shows that she sees Joff as a King, someone to be appealed to, an authority figure anointed by the gods but Cersei is just another woman like her, why does she also not suffer?

I agree. Cersei's comment about the woman (not to the woman) breaks the spell. The words the woman shouts at Cersei are directly at Cersei and no one else. "Whore" and all of those "brotherfuckers."

[Lummel]

yes , that is a very interesting aspect for a debate: is Tyrion himself convinced to fight for the right cause, the right claim? Does he fight here against better knowledge? Or does he believe the right claim is where his family is?

I think it is the latter. He does his job where his father puts him. Does Tyrion verbalize this potential conflct in his thoughts? Of course he is aware that Joffrey's claim is "illegitimate" so what could he have done in order to act morally? Offer the withdrawal of his family from power, offer an unconditional peace? Not after Ned's beheading, no way. And Stannis would never have refrained form beheading every single Lannister, sweet Tommen and clever charming Myrcella right after Joffrey...

Sorry for being off topic. But the only moral option for Tyrion or Renly or Jaime or Margaery or whoever would have been to stay out of it all and to enjoy life on the Arbor or in some library. We can root for our favorite characters to win but I believe we can not honestly say that anyone who actively risked a war here, even if he or she is a really nice person, would be morally superior and in possession of "the right cause" and the other ones are the bad guys...

Ah you anarchist! I largely agree, certainly I wouldn't see any of the crown candidates as intrinsically good or better said that their causes are intrinsically better. From our perspective blood will be shed in any case.

I'm not sure if Tyrion believes that his family has the right claim, or the most just claim, but then his moral compass points to Casterly Rock and I thnk that's the most important thing for me as shown in Tyrion I. He knows or at least suspects very strongly that his siblings' incest is mysteriously connected with Bran's fall but he's not going to do anything about it. He's not going to bet against his family as he said to Catelyn in Tyrion IV.

..."King Bread ruled alone" - I agree with you and Lummel in this regard. It reminds me of the adage "the way to a man's heart is through his stomach." Also, it reminds me of the idea of (forgive me as my Catholic schooling returns) "I am the bread and the life;" the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes feeding the masses; The Last Supper; "Jesus took bread and he broke it. . . Do this in rememberance of me;" and The Lord's Prayer, "Give us this day our daily bread." No low carb diets in Holy Writ, apparently. Also, King Bread summons forth the French Revolution and the Marie Antoinette story about "let them eat cake," as it was bread the common people needed...

Catholic upbringing memories are very appropriate. GRRM was brought up Catholic, that is bound to slip in to his work deliberately or not. I remember when I was a student reading saints' lives, and they are fairly standardised, I mean they follow models particularly the life of St. Anthony, and one miracle that you find quite often is the miracle of bread, or the miracle of feeding, the idea being that even though the larder is bare the saint manages to make bread or produce food from somewhere or from nowhere.

I don't know if we'll see anything like that. the gods in GRRM's world seem to be bloodythirster so far.

Agreed the mother and child is a very strong image. The flour and the bread too, we have seen the discontent in the city rising and swelling like dough over several chapters.

The riot-sparking scene has been nagging at me all day and I just realised why: from Dickens' tale of two cities...

Yes, there is something there, perhaps because both are very stratified societies?

...I also thought about Goya as well especially with regard to the upraised arms.(I think Goya's painting is called

"The Shootings of May Third") As for Dickens, I agree it's similar, but there is something about the fact that it's a mother and child in this chapter that seems sadder. :crying:

The Third of May

Yes the feel of the books puts me in mind of Goya too, another picture in the same series, the second of may, could do as an illustration for the riot too

[Ragnorak]

Are there parallels between two sets of three Lannister siblings? Joffrey-Cersei, Myrcella-Jaime, Tyrion-Tommen?

Tommen clearly loves his sister in a family unity way that is just lacking in House Lannister outside of Tywin and Kevan.

Tyrion has deployed his assets to prevent a riot and wonders if Cersei has done the same with hers. He can't actually ask her or coordinate because he isn't even supposed to know about her assets. We later learn the Kettleblacks are LF's and I recall the banter between LF and Varys where LF seems to think Varys is betting wrong with Tyrion. I wonder if he had already set up the Kettleblack arrangement last chapter.

Tyrion's explosive rant on Joffrey is one of his most instinctively human reactions in the series. He strikes Joffrey here in front of Cersei and she does not react to it. Why? Is she in shock? Does she recognize Joffrey almost got himself killed? She actually has Tyrion's back here for the most part. Is she grateful for his presence of mind when he ordered everyone back to the castle?

If Varys did arrange this and kidnap Tyreck that means he is already forseeing the death or elimination of Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, Kevan and all his children (assuming he's planning on holding an heir.)

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - Love your idea about the pairs of three. I'll think about it.

Lummel - Thank you for posting the link to the Goya paintings. (He's a very powerful painter and a favorite). His style is very appropo GRRM's world. Bloodthirsty indeed!

[Winterfellian]

Thanks for the great analysis Butterbumps!

Given what occurs in this chapter I can't help but go back to Vary's riddle again.

In the riddle's and specially in this line "power resides where men believe it resides" the common people seems to be relegated to the condition of believers or followers of those in power. While the clergy, the bank and the monarchy have clearly defined lines between them in no part of his riddle does Varys mentions anything like a social contract between those in power and their subjects (which I find interesting considering how Aegon has been raised to serve the realm, at least according to Varys). The riddle suggests quite the contrary with the figure standing between the three great powers is a sellsword known for being ambitious, faithless and self serving.

I think that when Tyrion reflects to himself that the commoners are looking on him unkindly because he was "well fed and ugly and they are starving" he is only seeing half the picture.

When the disquiet turns into a full blown mob the lines so well defined in Varys's riddle became blurred. In the eyes of the mob the king, the priest and the rich man all became the "well fed". They attacked both the beautiful and the ugly, the warriors and holier as well as the king himslef alike.When this lines disappear "King Bread" managed to make his claim or rather the people's/believer's needs overcame if only for a moment the status quo this lines provided.

[butterbumps!]

Wonderful, BB! I really appreciate the thoroughness of your posts and interesting analysis. As an added bonus, you write well, too. (I'm gushing like a Spindletop oil rig :dunno: ). If this architech thing doesn't work out, please consider writing.

Oh Blisscraft, you are making me blush! Thank you! As it happens I think I've had my fill of design these past 2 months of non-stop work, lol.

"King Bread ruled alone" - I agree with you and Lummel in this regard. It reminds me of the adage "the way to a man's heart is through his stomach." Also, it reminds me of the idea of (forgive me as my Catholic schooling returns) "I am the bread and the life;" the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes feeding the masses; The Last Supper; "Jesus took bread and he broke it. . . Do this in rememberance of me;" and The Lord's Prayer, "Give us this day our daily bread." No low carb diets in Holy Writ, apparently. Also, King Bread summons forth the French Revolution and the Marie Antoinette story about "let them eat cake," as it was bread the common people needed.

Madonna/Pieta - I searched for an image of a woman holding a dead child over her head not only because this is so powerful and sad, but also because it is both a madonna and child and a pieta. Holding up your arms over your head is a traditional gesture of surrender and show that one is weaponless. "Come out with your hands up!" However, although the starving, wailing woman in this story, holding her dead child over her head, acts as a stop sign or red light to the real parade of horribles.

The mother and child slips through and faces off with Joffrey. The "real horror" is in the mother's eyes as she stares at Joffrey. Joffrey looks as if he means to ride her down, but Sansa stops him with a word probably by telling Joffrey to throw her a coin which he does. The coin, a silver stag, (brings to mind the soldiers coins to Tysha) bounches off the dead child and rolls away distracting the crowd. The mother never blinks, but maintains hold of the child over her head, her arms not only burdened by its "dead weight," but also by the lack of strength in her "skinny" arms. The spell is broken when Cersei speaks.

I can't decide if it's what Cersei says to Joffrey about the woman or the way she says it or that Cersei says anything at all that causes the poor woman's grief to pour out in invective aimed directly at Cercei. Which it may be, the result is "all hell breaking loose." Also, the fact that once Cersei speaks, the woman drops the child "like a sack of flour." Flour? Really?

I love all your points, and would like to say that the mentions of bread did evoke memories of the Lord's Prayer and the like for me as well. Also, you drew from Christian rituals/ imagery that I hadn't put together until looking at your post. Now that you point to it, I think there is actually a theme of real-world recognizable religious imagery running through here, and adjacently, we see how that nearly every character has a very hostile toward the religion which is based on these images.

Also, I suspect the aspect of Cersei's words that set the woman off is similar to what haunts Ned when she spoke the words "We have a wolf," before killing Lady. Ned remembers the "soft and quiet" tone as Cersei said this as well as the "look on her face," and it chills and enrages him. I think it's likely Cersei's tone and expression that sets this woman off.

I think that when Tyrion reflects to himself that the commoners are looking on him unkindly because he was "well fed and ugly and they are starving" he is only seeing half the picture.

When the disquiet turns into a full blown mob the lines so well defined in Varys's riddle became blurred. In the eyes of the mob the king, the priest and the rich man all became the "well fed". They attacked both the beautiful and the ugly, the warriors and holier as well as the king himslef alike.When this lines disappear "King Bread" managed to make his claim or rather the people's/believer's needs overcame if only for a moment the status quo this lines provided.

This is such a point.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hey all, I just wanted to jump in and say that we get another reference to Tyrion as a giant here, when he says that if LF is dead then he is a giant. That makes quite a few giant references for him now.

[Lummel]

...Tyrion has deployed his assets to prevent a riot and wonders if Cersei has done the same with hers. He can't actually ask her or coordinate because he isn't even supposed to know about her assets...

It is certainly illustrative of how their squabble has the consequence of making them weaker

Tyrion's explosive rant on Joffrey is one of his most instinctively human reactions in the series. He strikes Joffrey here in front of Cersei and she does not react to it. Why? Is she in shock? Does she recognize Joffrey almost got himself killed? She actually has Tyrion's back here for the most part. Is she grateful for his presence of mind when he ordered everyone back to the castle?

Yes. I'm not sure what to make of this. Agree it is human, and who doesn't like the idea of hitting Joffrey? But it falls into this pattern of Lannister sharp lessons. I don't see the person receiving the blows ever learning what the person strike the blows wants them to learn - if anything its the opposite, they learn resentment.

It is also a mirror to what Joffrey did. Somebody annoyed him so he sends out the Hound to kill them. Joffrey annoys Tyrion so he punches and kicks him. The lesson taught is that the strong can beat the weak. The lesson learnt is that it is all about power and once you have power you can hurt as many people as you like.

If Varys did arrange this and kidnap Tyreck that means he is already forseeing the death or elimination of Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, Kevan and all his children (assuming he's planning on holding an heir.)

Foreseeing or preparing to arrange? We know that Varys is working to put Aegon on the throne. We know that to do this he will need to overthrow the lannister kings and neutralise casterly rock. Seems fair to assume that Varys has his hit list and a pet future lord of casterly rock in mind - to ensure Aegon's triumph he has to have those things...Of course it is also possible that Tyrek was just eaten by the hungry mob.

I noticed how he was called 'wet nurse' I can't imagine people being so casual about a Lannister if Tywin was around.

...In the riddle's and specially in this line "power resides where men believe it resides" the common people seems to be relegated to the condition of believers or followers of those in power. While the clergy, the bank and the monarchy have clearly defined lines between them in no part of his riddle does Varys mentions anything like a social contract between those in power and their subjects (which I find interesting considering how Aegon has been raised to serve the realm, at least according to Varys). The riddle suggests quite the contrary with the figure standing between the three great powers is a sellsword known for being ambitious, faithless and self serving.

I love that you have brought out this contrast between Varys' Aegon speech and Varys' riddle. It is intriguing. I am not sure what to think though. It could be that Varys is just tailoring his message to different audiences. It could be that the social contract side is part of the answer to the riddle - what do you give me if I obey you?

I think that when Tyrion reflects to himself that the commoners are looking on him unkindly because he was "well fed and ugly and they are starving" he is only seeing half the picture.

When the disquiet turns into a full blown mob the lines so well defined in Varys's riddle became blurred. In the eyes of the mob the king, the priest and the rich man all became the "well fed". They attacked both the beautiful and the ugly, the warriors and holier as well as the king himslef alike.When this lines disappear "King Bread" managed to make his claim or rather the people's/believer's needs overcame if only for a moment the status quo this lines provided.

Perhaps in your terms they have failed their side of the social contract?

Hey all, I just wanted to jump in and say that we get another reference to Tyrion as a giant here, when he says that if LF is dead then he is a giant. That makes quite a few giant references for him now.

Heh, our giant of Lannister!

[Winterfellian]

One of the things that caught my attention in regards toTyrion is this line from Jocelyn Bywater:

When you named me to command the watch, you tell me you wanted plain truth, always.

I think this quote brings out nicely the contradictions of Tyrion. On a more personal level he seems more prone to delusions. After all, his arrangement with Shae implicitly involves her lying to him.

But on more pragmatic level when it comes to ruling Tyrion prefers harsh truths over sweet lies (in contrast with Cersei who likes to surround herself with sycophants) I remarked in the past how Bronn and Bywater where like two sides of a coin, with one being the honorable man and the other one the rogue. However from both of this men Tyrion demands the truth, even if it is a brutal truth.

I think there's something very human in the way in which Tyrion chooses, even if unconsciously, where he will rather hear the truth and where he doesn't. He separates them according to where he considers his strenghts to be. Believing himself well skilled to play the games, unlike men like Ned Stark or Jon Arryn, he is better prepared to listen to a harsh truth much better in this regard. However on a personal level where most of his insecurities rest it is easier to choose to listen to sweet lies, like is the case of Shae. Considering this, I think is very sad the way he ends the chapter doubting herself over something he thought he was actually skillful.

[Loras]

One of the things that caught my attention in regards toTyrion is this line from Jocelyn Bywater:

I think this quote brings out nicely the contradictions of Tyrion. On a more personal level he seems more prone to delusions. After all, his arrangement with Shae implicitly involves her lying to him.

But on more pragmatic level when it comes to ruling Tyrion prefers harsh truths over sweet lies (in contrast with Cersei who likes to surround herself with sycophants) I remarked in the past how Bronn and Bywater where like two sides of a coin, with one being the honorable man and the other one the rogue. However from both of this men Tyrion demands the truth, even if it is a brutal truth.

I think there's something very human in the way in which Tyrion chooses, even if unconsciously, where he will rather hear the truth and where he doesn't. He separates them according to where he considers his strenghts to be. Believing himself well skilled to play the games, unlike men like Ned Stark or Jon Arryn, he is better prepared to listen to a harsh truth much better in this regard. However on a personal level where most of his insecurities rest it is easier to choose to listen to sweet lies, like is the case of Shae. Considering this, I think is very sad the way he ends the chapter doubting herself over something he thought he was actually skillful.

I think this is spot on analysis of Tyrion.

Throughout his chapters Tyrion is neither depressed or particularly bitter about his disability, but I think this is where it manifests itself. He knows that as a ruler he does not need to be physically able - but he does need to mentally agile.

He says to Jon Snow in 'A Game of Thrones' (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book with me):

A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone.

He knows that he has a sharp mind because he feeds it with books. He is capable of understanding the situation and would rather have all of the facts, no matter how difficult they are, in order to best plan for the situation.

Yet we see in his relationship with Shae, as Winterfellian points out, that he is deluding himself. He has built a relationship - in his mind - with a woman that he pays to lie to him. It isn't a very healthy relationship for Tyrion. Though I often wonder when reading Tyrion's chapters if he feels that no woman could love him because of his dwarfism?

[Lummel]

Tyrion X (ACOK)

Overview

This is very rich chapter full of secrets, lies and power games that begins with Lancel telling Tyrion that “The Queen intends to send Tommen away”. Tyrion decides to turn this to his advantage by having the Gold Cloaks seize Tommen on the road and secure him at Roseby with coughin' Gyles until King's Landing is safer.

His letter written and having instructed the impudent Bronn, Tyrion rides off towards Chataya's but part way there changes direction to his manse. On the way we find out that after the riot Tyrion has imposed a curfew on the city.

There he interrupts Shae with a singer who hails Tyrion as Hand. Is later himself interrupted by Varys bringing word of the fall of Storms End. The chapter ends with Tyrion laughing as he sees himself as the one man between the city and Stannis, twisted little monkey demon that he is.

Observations

• Tyrion meets Lancel in a Sept, Cersei uses the Great Sept of Baelor to disguise herself and meet with the Kettleblacks, Sansa uses the cover of the godswood to meet with Ser Dontos – playing on the idea of religion / corruption?
  
• “He lit a second candle to the Stranger for himself”
  
• Tyrion lights the candle to the Stranger, but it is Lancel who wants to die.
  
• “Bronn could not read so he asked impudent questions”
  
• “And I don't trust you with my nephew” a Tywin moment, choosing the right tool for the job.
  
• “He slapped her. Not hard, but hard enough. “Damn you,” he said. “Damn you. Never mock me. Not you.” Clearly it is Bronn's job to be impudent not Shae's. Also an instance of the sharp lesson / Lannister power dynamic that follows on nicely from Tyrion IX ACOK
  
• “After he was done with her, my father had our marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said.” Tywin not a man to forget the details then.
  
• “Why no, I trust you implicitly...I trust you like one of my own blood, in truth. Now tell me how Cortnay Penrose died.” Is that your own blood as in Cersei or Jaime, Tyrion? ;)
  

Analysis

Rambling introduction

This chapter seems increasingly complex to me, so hopefully you can bear with me while I struggle through it. First we can divide it neatly into three parts each of which has a challenge that our hero must face, respectively a Tommen challenge, a relationship challenge and a political challenge.

Then we can think about this structurally we start in the sept, have carnal concerns in the middle and have Varys' castration story at the end. I visualise this as U shaped: spirit - body – spirit.

But symbolically this is troubling. The Sept, and other religious places, has become devalued and unsanctified in the story – maybe this is not surprising considering what we have been saying about the Priest in Varys' riddle. The Sept is associated with deception – it is a counterpoint to the brothel as a place for hidden assignations. Cersei changes clothes there to visit the Kettleblacks, Tyrion meets his double agent there, The Ned was decapitated there despite being assured he could take the Black. And at the end is Varys telling the truth, if not then maybe the structure of the chapter is: deceit – deceit – deceit...

Seizing the Crown Prince on the road

Lancel betrays Cersei by telling Tyrion that Tommen is being taken in disguise to Rosby. Tyrion writes false orders to Bywater, and he doesn't trust Bronn with his nephew, despite their friendly chats which I think is a good example of how compartmentalised Tyrion's life is, he is friendly with Bronn but judges that Bywater's honour will serve him better than Bronn's love of gold and gain.

Deceiving yourself

Then we have this interesting five page Tyrion and Shae section. A lot happens here. We have the singer, the Tysha story repeated, a slap, something of Shae's back story comes out and we learn that Shae is going to be moved from the manse to the Red Keep.

Well the singer. He is left to stew here by Tyrion. Next time onions and barley will be involved in the process. Just a quick note, the singer's greeting parallels that of Chataya in Tyrion III ACOK except there his tone wasn't as sharp "'Titles can be as dangerous as names,' Tyrion warned.'Show me a few of your girls'". Singers and songs represent idealism, romanticism, they preserve history – they are in other words a bunch of liars who live by peddling lies.

And we get a contrast between Tyrion Romanticism and Shae's realism throughout these pages.

“He flew through the moonlit streets, clattering over cobbles, darting down narrow alleys and up twisty wynds, racing to his love.”

“The colors favored her dark hair and the smooth cream of her skin.”

“Shae stood in the door behind him, dressed in the silvery robe he had given her. I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair.” (Wasn't there some echo of this already in AGOT? Maybe something that Ragnorak mentioned?)

I note that the actual physical encounters are passed over briefly. Once or twice we are told that Tyrion spends himself (a very Lannister expression) quickly. There is an implicit contrast between Shae's physical beauty and Tyrion's physical ugliness. The emphasis of Tyrion's thoughts is on romance, well not romance as such since there isn't anything particularly romantic here, more the idealisation of Shae as an object of love. Although Tyrion-Tysha is presumably the original model for this relationship Tyrions memories here of Tysha are not romantic and are focused on himself.

In juxtaposition to Tyrion the moonstruck lover we have Shae who sees through illusions: “And most women, maybe But not whores. A whore learns to see the man, not his garb, or she turns up dead in an ally”. It's pretty clear that she's been part of the oldest profession for some time. The knight before the battle of the Greenfork was not her first. However her professional knowledge sits in awkward contrast to her political naivety “Then kill her and be done with it. It's not as if there was any love between you.” Just as Tyrion's political skill sits with his naivety over having Shae work in the kitchens. There's a suggestion that her story about how she ended up a prostitute may not be the truth, or the whole truth. There are lies, damned lies and the dodgy stories people tell each other in Westeros. Maybe we should wonder that if people are lying to Tyrion do they believe that Tyrion is telling the truth to them?

So we have these mismatched pairs yoked together through the chapter. Tyrion and Lancel, Tyrion and Shae, Shae and Shae, Varys and Tyrion.

The destruction of Narnia

Previously the manse where Shae was quartered was his magical place of peace and relaxation. Accessible only by travelling through the back of an old wardrobe. This time Tyrion travels directly there and is confronted by the intrusion of the real world by the singer - Tyrion can't keep his two world in separate private compartments anymore.

Magic, mystery and the countdown to the Blackwater begins

First off I recommend this post by Tze very highly in which she argues that Varys' story about his castration might be a pack of lies. Have a read and make up your own minds. Although in support of her thesis Varys does tell the story in the context of needing to regain Tyrion's trust having just revealed that there all these secret tunnels that he hasn't told Tyrion about and more importantly he needs to distract him from. Varys does not preface his remarks by explaining the unreliability of his sources as he did in Tyrion VIII ACOK.

I note here too the shattered glass (or cup). As in Tyrion IX a symbol of coming war or the impossibility of peace.

So overall a typical King's Landing chapter full of lies, deceit and corruption!

ETA a sentence here, a link there

ETA2 some grammar and some spelling. Damnable language. Another spelling, some more grammar and an extra sentence.

[Lummel]

Unconnected post

I had a message from Rapsie who spotted another character with mismatched eyes - Professor Woland (ie the Devil) from Bulgakov's Master and Margarita. It's striking because characters with mismatched eyes seem fairly rare - but I have no idea if it is relevant. It might just be chance, but maybe it will spark a thought. :)

[Blisscraft]

Well done, Lummel! :bowdown: I agree that this chapter is a booger. :bang:

Mismatched pairs - It seems that this chapter, picking up with the religious images you refered to above, has a feel of the confessional. There is nothing more "mismatched" than a priest and a penitent. In the first part of this chapter, Lancel, kneeling with Tryion amid the shadows and candlelight of the Sept, tells of the plot to abscond with Tommen. In a way, confessing and seeking absolution through a glorious death later in battle . In the next beat, Tyrion is talking to Bronn about the "changeling" Tommen plan and we hear Bronn's, rather oblique, but powerful confession that he would like to be "Lord Bronn." While at the manse, Tyrion confesses to Shae, the story of his marriage to Tysha (albeit with omissions). Shae confesses a bit of her past to Tyrion (albeit with omissions, most certainly). Finally, Varys' confesses about his castration and some other things (albeit with omissions and misdirection, most certainly). Not saying that some of these are "true" confessions, it just seems that there is a lot of information conming in the form of self disclosure and with the exception of Lancel, it doesn't seem that anyone seeks absolution.

Another thought about "mismatched pairs" is that soon we will have another Lannister mismatched pair with Jaime and Brienne. Also, the MP is at the heart of the Beauty and the Beast story.

More later.

[Lummel]

It was I found a difficult chapter, maybe because it is lurching from the cynical/practical to the idealistic - it waddles like Tyrion. So the tripartite split could be cynicism-idealism-cynicism. But that's wrong because of the slap. The slap is a gross assertion of power politics right in the middle of Tyrion playing, well not quite happy families but having his secret love affair. And I love how he then says 'well that was bad on both our parts' , so fantastically self serving - subtext = it's bad for a man to hit women unless they have provoked him - then its ok /sarcasm. Of course you get to hear and read things like meant quite sincerely too, but the comparision with how Bronn deals with Tyrion skewers that.

So really there is this constant shifting of tone from the fantastical to the real. I think it leads us to question what is happening in the chapter - is Varys' story true? Was magic really involved in Penrose's death? Did Shae's father sexually abuse her or just get her to work in the kitchen or both? I'm left uncertain and suspicious, which is pretty good :laugh:

Lancel is great. He is a poor photocopy of Jaime. Jaime fathers children with Cersei, Lancel presents her with a nice pearl necklace. Jaime kills Aerys II with his sword, Lancel gets Robert drunk and allows a boar to give him a mortal wound. So here he is, a boy destroyed by the threat of being turned over to Joffrey, playing the penitent to Tyrion as Cousin-Confessor. Forgive me Coz for I have sinned, let me offer up Tommen to you for a chance of a redemptive death...This is ASOIAF so the answer is maybe (subtext=no).

[butterbumps!]

Great summary. Only the bravest soul could take on this chapter ;)

So really there is this constant shifting of tone from the fantastical to the real. I think it leads us to question what is happening in the chapter - is Varys' story true? Was magic really involved in Penrose's death? Did Shae's father sexually abuse her or just get her to work in the kitchen or both? I'm left uncertain and suspicious, which is pretty good :laugh:

Don't we have independent confirmation of magic's involvement with both Renly and Penrose's deaths? I've never heard a theory where this is understood as more prosaic events....do you have such a theory?

Lancel is great. He is a poor photocopy of Jaime. Jaime fathers children with Cersei, Lancel presents her with a nice pearl necklace.

Ok, between these pearl necklace references and that "one legged donkey" thing, I'm seriously starting to wonder how you earned your Septon title. And technically speaking, I think Lancel is "leaving the Hawaiian Islands" on Cersei rather than pearl necklacing (though, the Hawaiian Islands might not be as common a reference on your side of the pond, but more to the point, it refers to sowing on one's stomach).